[RashyGiggsy]

I get that people don't like Fred. He does make some bone-headed passes and controls at times. Yet, I'd say that he has often been United's most effective midfielder. The reaction to Fred, in my opinion, has less to do with his actual play as compared to our other midfielders, than the fact that Fred has become the scapegoat for our incredibly mediocre midfield. The mediocracy of the midfield may have had as much to do with the managerial staff as it has had to do with the players - who knows? I am not privileged to training sessions and game strategies.

However, every midfielder (with the possible exception of Matic) takes unnecessary risks too close to our own goal. How many times have we seen Fernandes make a bad pass not more than 30-40 yards from DeGea's goal? Or Pogba trying to dribble around or thru 3 defenders. Or McTominay and Wan Bissaka engaged in panic passing and dribbling along the right. It makes me wish for the days of Neville, Beckham, Scholes, and Butt.

While statistics certainly don't tell the whole story, FBREF provides some stats that gives some comparison. https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/Fred Fred actually completes a higher percent of passes than any other of our midfielders (except Matic) and does more defensively.

Since United's goal is to win the Premiere League every year and to win the Champions League, I don't really think that Fred is the kind of player that you want as your starting #6 or #8. I'd like to see United get Declan Rice, or another solid defensive midfielder. Fred would be an excellent player on a mid-level PL team like Crystal Palace, Wolves, Southhampton, Everton - but not a team trying to win it all.

In other words, Fred may not be great. But he is more a symptom of a mediocre midfield than the cause.

 

[KennyBurner]

Well that definitely happens in here, everyone from Solskjaer, Matic, Pogba to McTominay has been blamed for Fred's poor form this season. Which may be true to varying degrees.

The interesting thing I've noticed though is people rightly point out that Fred is essentially being played out of position as he isn't a DM which means he isn't as effective as he potentially could be and contributes to his poor performances. Most of the same people don't seem to give McTominay the same benefit of the doubt though as McTominay isn't a DM either.

But mctominay doesn’t exceed at anything midfield related other than shooting? So I don’t quite get your point?

Fred on the other hand has the best workrate and tenacity, good positioning and passing*. I put an asterisk on his passing because it can be very inconsistent yet when he does play well you will notice he gives the best weighted ground passes out of all our midfielders.
Fred is a central midfielder that can excel deep or further up the pitch. He is not the DM like Matic who excels are dictating play from deep although he can do it to a standard level. Mctominay can’t do anything in midfield other than run with the ball into spaces occupied by our attackers. Know the difference.

 

[Majima]

A DM doesn't have to be a 'clogger'.

Ideally we should be using Fred in the same way that Chelsea use Kante. Kante is one of the best in the history of the game at what he does, yet even his performance levels have been somewhat inconsistent for Chelsea depending on who his midfield partner has been and the role he has been expected to play. His great periods of form have come next to Matic (when he was young and good) and Jorginho - two players with positional discipline to hold the defensive shape while also being good passers (especially Jorginho). This allowed Kante to focus on what he's great at. When Chelsea have given him different roles in a different midfield set-up he's looked half the player. It's simply common sense when you look at Kante's strengths and weaknesses that that is the type of partner he should have to make the most balanced midfield.

In theory at least, Fred needs the exact same type of partner. Something that he's never come close to having here. Obviously he's not as good as Kante (who is faster, better touch, better dribbler and more likely to win the challenges he goes in for), but he's closer to him than the vast majority of midfielders out there. Instead, for most of his time here we've basically been asking him to play the midfield playmaking role himself when we have the ball, and then abusing him when he unsurprisingly isn't good enough. And when out of possession...well, being one of the best harriers and destroyers around is all well and good, except if your midfield partner doesn't press, your wingers don't press, your defence sits deep and there's space being left everywhere, it's obviously not going to work as well as what it should in a proper system and it's going to result in you getting caught out sometimes.

At the end of the day, Fred is the only midfielder we currently have who might be able to be part of a good two man midfield partnership. Emphasis on the 'might'. Matic definitely can't anymore, doesn't matter who that partner is. McTominay definitely can't, he is basically average or worse in every important aspect for a midfielder so it's impossible to form a balanced partnership without the other midfielder doing EVERYTHING (which is basically what Fred currently tries to do). Pogba (despite what people have wanted) has never been able to do it consistently at any level in any team, even if he was sticking around. VDB...maybe he'll end up surprising us and he has been a bit better lately, but he has a lot to prove. That leaves Fred as the only one who might be able to do it. There is a fair chance that he still won't be good enough and we'd still have to improve on him further, but he at least has the strengths to allow us to say "ok if he's partnered with somebody that compliments him we could have a fairly balanced midfield".

Agreed with all of your points. Apart from when you say he's obviously not as good as Kante, The stats suggest it's much closer, in Fred's favour actually.

Last season's stats 2020/21:

Pressing wise, Fred made 639 presses to Kante's 478, Fred pressed more in each phase; 228 to 201 in Def 3rd, 300 to 213 in Mid 3rd, 111 to 64 in Att 3rd.

Possession wise, Fred has more touches of the ball overall (2092 to 1806), & more touches in every phase.

You say Kante is the superior dribbler, but dribble success % they are even (75%), & both dribbled past same amount of opponents (29). Ball carries, Fred had higher total ball controls (1387 to 1185). He also carried the ball further (6574 yards to 5484). Receiving the ball, Fred was the target of a pass more (1560 to 1298), & both had even pass success % (94%).

Passing wise, Fred made more total passes (1555 to 1302), more progressive passes (149 to 101), at higher progressive distance (7562 yards to 5264), more short, medium & long passes, more passes into open space (6 to 2), more passes whilst under pressure (242 to 191), & more cross field switches (57 to 40).

Fred also created more shot creating actions (67 to 47), more goal creating actions (5 to 1), & more live ball passes that lead to a goal (4 to 1).

The only stat Kante was really superior in last season was his tackle success rate vs. a dribble, (Kante 48%, Fred 35%), because they both made the same amount of tackles overall (88 to 87), whilst Fred even made double the amount of tackles than Kante in the Att 3rd (10 to 5). But because Fred attempts more tackles than Kante (87 to 60), but was only successful 30 times compared to 29 for Kante, I guess that's what sticks in people's minds more. But I don't think that's too much of a stick to beat Fred with, that suggests he's been in the right place at the right time very often to me.

So looking at it, Kante is the more robust tackler, but everything else, from pressing, passing, creation, Fred was the superior footballer last season. That's vs. Kante, like you said one of the best in the history of the game in his role.

If I was to compare Fred to McTominay last season, it's not even a competition, Fred wipes the floor with him. I do believe that the stick he gets is unfair. He's definately performing at a much higher level than he's ever given credit for.

 

[stevoc]

But mctominay doesn’t exceed at anything midfield related other than shooting? So I don’t quite get your point?

Fred on the other hand has the best workrate and tenacity, good positioning and passing*. I put an asterisk on his passing because it can be very inconsistent yet when he does play well you will notice he gives the best weighted ground passes out of all our midfielders.
Fred is a central midfielder that can excel deep or further up the pitch. He is not the DM like Matic who excels are dictating play from deep although he can do it to a standard level. Mctominay can’t do anything in midfield other than run with the ball into spaces occupied by our attackers. Know the difference.

Irrespective of their relative strengths and weaknesses as midfielders which are debatable.

My point was that quite often in this thread being partnered with McTominay and being played out of position are both used as defences for Fred's poor performances. Which I'd largely agree with.

But at the same time most who mention McTominay completely disregard that McTominay is also being played basically out of position as a DM.

Neither player has been used in their most suited positions to the detriment of both.

 

[RUCK4444]

He’s still the one player I would have starting every game out of the midfielders we have.

That says more about our midfield options than anything but at the same time he’s the most useful of the ones we have.

Definitely a level above McTominay who imo is not good enough, has the odd good performance but follows up with 6 or 7 bang average performances.

At least Fred offers energy, breaks up the play and gets us on the front foot, as shown last night. It’s also not his fault we used him as the primary DM at our club in his time here, when he’s not even a pure DM.

 

[MadDogg]

Agreed with all of your points. Apart from when you say he's obviously not as good as Kante, The stats suggest it's much closer, in Fred's favour actually.

Last season's stats 2020/21:

Pressing wise, Fred made 639 presses to Kante's 478, Fred pressed more in each phase; 228 to 201 in Def 3rd, 300 to 213 in Mid 3rd, 111 to 64 in Att 3rd.

Possession wise, Fred has more touches of the ball overall (2092 to 1806), & more touches in every phase.

You say Kante is the superior dribbler, but dribble success % they are even (75%), & both dribbled past same amount of opponents (29). Ball carries, Fred had higher total ball controls (1387 to 1185). He also carried the ball further (6574 yards to 5484). Receiving the ball, Fred was the target of a pass more (1560 to 1298), & both had even pass success % (94%).

Passing wise, Fred made more total passes (1555 to 1302), more progressive passes (149 to 101), at higher progressive distance (7562 yards to 5264), more short, medium & long passes, more passes into open space (6 to 2), more passes whilst under pressure (242 to 191), & more cross field switches (57 to 40).

Fred also created more shot creating actions (67 to 47), more goal creating actions (5 to 1), & more live ball passes that lead to a goal (4 to 1).

The only stat Kante was really superior in last season was his tackle success rate vs. a dribble, (Kante 48%, Fred 35%), because they both made the same amount of tackles overall (88 to 87), whilst Fred even made double the amount of tackles than Kante in the Att 3rd (10 to 5). But because Fred attempts more tackles than Kante (87 to 60), but was only successful 30 times compared to 29 for Kante, I guess that's what sticks in people's minds more. But I don't think that's too much of a stick to beat Fred with, that suggests he's been in the right place at the right time very often to me.

So looking at it, Kante is the more robust tackler, but everything else, from pressing, passing, creation, Fred was the superior footballer last season. That's vs. Kante, like you said one of the best in the history of the game in his role.

If I was to compare Fred to McTominay last season, it's not even a competition, Fred wipes the floor with him. I do believe that the stick he gets is unfair. He's definately performing at a much higher level than he's ever given credit for.

Fred did play more than Kante so the stats really should be done per 90 minutes. It's not a huge difference in this case but does make it more exact.

Fred did have more presses and successful presses last season, but Kante has more tackles won and interceptions. Overall Kante did win the ball back more often per 90 (11.87 times compared to 11.37). Ndidi (14.36), Allan (11.76) and Jorginho (11.37) are the other players in the league up alongside them.

The dribbling is a surprise as it certainly feels Kante is quite superior there. Looking into it I see that although their league stats were quite similar last season, Kante's stats in the CL were far higher whereas Fred's stayed about the same in Europe. Not sure if there's something noteworthy to come out of that.

What I would say Fred is better at is being that deep playmaker in midfield. He's not good enough for what we need, but I do think he's doing a better job of it than what Kante would be if he was expected to play it (something no smart manager would do). That's where Fred has the edge with his passing stats. If we had a good system with the right partner I actually expect Fred's stats would drop in some of those categories, as his partner would become the main man in there to build up from deep.

Fred's shot creating and expected assists were surprisingly good last season, especially in the first half of the season. Rashford in particular wasted a handful of very good chances that Fred created for him, and quite a few of Bruno's shots from just outside the box came directly from Fred passing through the lines to him (I remember Bruno hitting the post two or three times from that exact play). Hopefully he can get back to that as he's dropped right off so far this season (1.54 shot creating actions per 90 minutes compared to 2.52 last season).

Overall, stats are good to give a broad idea and can show trends and whatnot, but they do have to be used alongside the eye-test. I would actually agree that Fred was better than Kante in the first half of the season, but in the second half Kante went from strength to strength (when he was fit) whereas Fred did the exact opposite and dropped form the longer the season wore on to the point he was really struggling for the final month. Kante definitely reached the higher peaks and overall was the better player.

 

[Devil may care]

See here's the thing, Fred outperforms Fabinho for Brazil, go ask any Brazil fan or Brazil watcher, Fred is not there despite his performances he's there because of his performances. In fact just watch his last game for Brazil against Argentina where he was man of the match.

And your second point is hypocritical in the sense that you say Fabinho's defensive stats are because they dominate possession but at the same time lower Fred for not being a 'good deep passer' like Fabinho when you know for a fact we're nowhere near as well drilled as Liverpool, unless that's Fred's fault ?.

When both play for Brazil with the same midfield partner in Casemiro Fred has outperformed Fabinho and deservedly starts instead of Fabinho.

You brought stats into it, not me, as I said they are the weakest argument tool there is as they lack context, the context i pointed out that you were using to try and make out Fred was better defensively, there's nothing hypocritical, I believe in what I see, I don't give a shit about Fred for Brazil ir what Brazilian fans think of him and Fabinho, I care about what I see week in and week out in the PL, and I know Fabinho is easily an all round better midfielder, and I doubt fans of other clubs would choose Fred for their PL team over Fabinho either.

The whole crux of the bizarre Fred lovefest that has came out of nowhere is either to shit on McTominay who also isnt good enough, or to point to international football, remember Gareth Barry used to get selected over Carrick, Lampard was selected over Scholes, John Barnes looked liie half the player in an England shirt compared to his Liverpool performances, and David Platt looked like a world beater for England but was nothing but a solud midfielder at club level, it's again an argument without context, Fabinho in the PL is a comfortably superior midfielder.

There were two moments when the tempo was cranking up in the Liverpool vs Arsenal game at the weekend, Arsenal were breaking and twice in a row Fabinho breaks it up, recycles possession and releases TAA down the wing. Eventually, I think the FK that led to the opener resulted from this.

When you have a player like Fabinho in your team, maybe he only needs 3 or 4 key interventions in a game to suck the life out of the opposition. Eventually Arsenal couldn't get out and it drained them. But they got pressed back over a period, and it started with him.

Fred and McTominay don't control the game whatsoever, or allow us to get a foothold and some quality territory. They can win the ball back 10 times, but 10 times it will come straight back. Eventually, on the 11th attempt, they get bypassed and we concede. I know which I'd rather prefer.

Exactly, Fabinho plays with great awareness of what's going on around him and him is positionally good enough that he doesn't need to make nearly as many challenges, and as you say it's night and day on the ball in terms of composure and distribution.

McTominay and Fred are both dog soldiers, they're the type of player certain managers like to ķeep in the squad tomuse for specific grafting roles in certain games.

Well, let's wait and see what a new manager can get out of these players including Scott and Fred.

I think a new no 6 + Bruno with Fred and VDB competing for that no 8 spot would be a very solid midfield.

Fred and VDB have both played brilliantly for their respective NT's. I think we can dispel the myth that Pogba is some sort of top 8 that we desperately need to replace with another luxury player. We've been struggling to fit him into the team alongside Bruno and that isn't solely down to Ole's incompetence. Let's build around Bruno, and we could do with a hard player between the DM and Bruno. Balance and all that good jazz.

I'm sure all players will get the chance under whoever the new coach is, but the limitations that have been on show for 3 seasons now need weeding out.

I'm not saying Pogba needs replacing with a like for like but someone in that midfield needs to be able to control a game, offer some conductivity on the ball and some composure. If we go for Rice or Tchouameni then they aren't really that guy, you need a more cultured #8 as Bruno is never going to be the controller in any midfield set-up.

 

[eire-red]

Is "whoever else" half the squad? Maybe they're not all shite and the coaching plays a huge role?

You're setting yourself up to buy into another rebuild narrative, which will enable an underperforming manager.

Look at Chelsea and how little we rated their players. Rudiger is a great example.

We need a few midfielders, that's not enabling some "rebuild narrrative" and giving the new manager some excuse to serve up lacklustre results for a period under the guise of progress. I probably went overboard with the wording of "everyone", but I genuienly don't think we'll ever win anything with Pogba, Matic, Fred or McTominay anywhere near that midfield, regardless of the manager.

If we don't invest in midfield, we're setting up the next mananger to fail anyway. Majority of the squad, I've seen enough to know that they have quality, but are going through a horrible moment. The entire midfield, this is normal for them. Only now, Bruno, Rashford, Greenwood, Cavani and whoever else aren't pulling worldies out of the bag and papering over the cracks.

You might call getting rid of Fred, McTominay, Matic, Pogba, while booting out fringe underperformers like Martial, Lingard and Mata as a "rebuild" that's risky and can enable another underperforming manager.

I guess I'm taking the other side of the argument. I don't think any manager has a hope to win anything here with those players in midfield. You don't need a team full of world class players, but in midfield you need consistent performers that do the basics very well and you can rely on to contribute in both defence and attack.

None of our midfielders are consistent, and I never feel confident we'll control a game, or move the ball well, or be solid defensively and have someone to shield our back 4, any of it.

 

[Majima]

Fred did play more than Kante so the stats really should be done per 90 minutes. It's not a huge difference in this case but does make it more exact.

Fred did have more presses and successful presses last season, but Kante has more tackles won and interceptions. Overall Kante did win the ball back more often per 90 (11.87 times compared to 11.37). Ndidi (14.36), Allan (11.76) and Jorginho (11.37) are the other players in the league up alongside them.

The dribbling is a surprise as it certainly feels Kante is quite superior there. Looking into it I see that although their league stats were quite similar last season, Kante's stats in the CL were far higher whereas Fred's stayed about the same in Europe. Not sure if there's something noteworthy to come out of that.

What I would say Fred is better at is being that deep playmaker in midfield. He's not good enough for what we need, but I do think he's doing a better job of it than what Kante would be if he was expected to play it (something no smart manager would do). That's where Fred has the edge with his passing stats. If we had a good system with the right partner I actually expect Fred's stats would drop in some of those categories, as his partner would become the main man in there to build up from deep.

Fred's shot creating and expected assists were surprisingly good last season, especially in the first half of the season. Rashford in particular wasted a handful of very good chances that Fred created for him, and quite a few of Bruno's shots from just outside the box came directly from Fred passing through the lines to him (I remember Bruno hitting the post two or three times from that exact play). Hopefully he can get back to that as he's dropped right off so far this season (1.54 shot creating actions per 90 minutes compared to 2.52 last season).

Overall, stats are good to give a broad idea and can show trends and whatnot, but they do have to be used alongside the eye-test. I would actually agree that Fred was better than Kante in the first half of the season, but in the second half Kante went from strength to strength (when he was fit) whereas Fred did the exact opposite and dropped form the longer the season wore on to the point he was really struggling for the final month. Kante definitely reached the higher peaks and overall was the better player.

Yeah Fred shouldn't be having to play the deep playmaker role for us. When I watch us, I see Fred being stretched all over the place. He's having to almost do everything by himself in midfield, as the vast majority, McTominay never takes much responsibility for anything, Pogba is too busy going forward & doesn't sense danger, and Bruno is positioned as a striker 99% of the time. In an age of specialised midfield roles, it's a huge credit to Fred that he's capable of building from deep for us, whilst pressing all over the pitch. Who's capable of that in the league/Europe? Not many imo.

I believe Fred dropped off towards the end of the season, due to being knackered. He was playing 90 mins 2x a week without any rest all season. It was a minor miracle he lasted that long really.

I agree Kante shined more than Fred overall, but how much of that was due to Tuchel's setup? He was nursing injuries sure, but he certainly wasn't flourishing under Lampard. Whereas Fred's never had a competent structure around him, doesn't even play in his natural role, and is asked to do all phases by himself.

In an ideal world, we either get a dlp in the mould of Jorginho, or a sitter like Rice. Then Fred can concentrate on doing what he does best; pressing/intercepting high up the pitch, carrying, filling in holes. In a setup where he hasn't got to do everything, I believe he can be as good as any in the world for that role.

 

[Litch]

Fred will always divide opinions and there have been better players at Utd that are even now seen as 'legends' that divided opinions too. The beauty of it is whilst we have a view, the fact that there are others that see it different kind of means none of them are probably accurate and the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Whilst people might want to question his ability, what is undeniably true is he doesn't sign himself, or set the fee nor does he pick himself to play for the two biggest footballing teams in the world. Good enough is not our call, it's the respective managers and clearly they believe he is without the need to measure that against Zico or Scholes.

He won't be the first or the last but I'm sure when he's on the plane to the World Cup or running onto the pitch at OT, he won't give a flying feck what Keane or some guy on a forum thinks from behind his keyboard. He is already winning.....

 

[Ekeke]

Yeah Fred shouldn't be having to play the deep playmaker role for us. When I watch us, I see Fred being stretched all over the place. He's having to almost do everything by himself in midfield, as the vast majority, McTominay never takes much responsibility for anything, Pogba is too busy going forward & doesn't sense danger, and Bruno is positioned as a striker 99% of the time. In an age of specialised midfield roles, it's a huge credit to Fred that he's capable of building from deep for us, whilst pressing all over the pitch. Who's capable of that in the league/Europe? Not many imo.

Fred isnt either.

He doesnt press all over the pitch and if he did we'd be even more open to play against. And he often stuggles building from deep for us

 

[Walrus]

Im not a fan of Fred at all, but I think Rangnick could bring out the best in him in a massive way.

 

[mu4c_20le]

Without the ball

With the ball

 

[ivaldo]

Without the ball

With the ball

He was also very good on the ball.

MOTM.

 

[roonster09]

He had very good game, should have done well when he intercepted Mendy's pass but overall he was very good.

 

[Cutch]

Rangnick’s gonna love him

 

[Frank Grimes]

My motm

 

[matsdf]

Absolutely immense today. Very interesting to see what he can do under Rangnick.

 

[Godfather]

He was great shame he fecked the chance up at the end

 

[Lash]

Rangnick’s gonna love him

Yep, he's going to be used properly to his strengths.

 

[TheMitz]

Thought he did really well today, he turns up against the better teams

 

[GledTheRed]

Brilliant today.

 

[HailtotheKing]

Rangnick’s gonna love him

Will be a star for him.

 

[slored1]

Excellent until he has to shoot. Good thing he will play as a ball-winner under Ralph and won't have to worry about shooting too much.

 

[Kopral Jono]

My man of the match. He was absolutely fantastic today.

 

[bond19821982]

Brilliant today. Just that keep him away from the opposition goal. Should have finished that chance . Such a horrible miss.

 

[Heardy]

The attempted lob was atrocious but otherwise he had a fantastic game!

 

[Van Piorsing]

With some proper coaching direction there could be player there.

 

[RUCK4444]

MOTM today, no doubt.

Give him license to get up the pitch a bit and he causes nightmares for the opposition, as others have pointed out Rangnick should love him.

 

[Kag]

He’s dogshit on the ball but I imagine he’ll play an important role over the coming months. At least until we can replace his work rate with a player with a few brain cells.

 

[Golden Nugget]

Immense today. My motm.
Awful decision to shoot - and even worse shot.

 

[Bobski]

Immense today. My motm.
Awful decision to shoot - and even worse shot.

Right decision for me, he just muffed it.

 

[Maluco]

He is absolutely everywhere and that will have real value under a proper coach in a proper system. He is going to make us very hard to beat. He just covers so much ground.

I know so many don’t like him because he isn’t so great in possession but I love him. Chelsea midfield was sick looking at him today.

 

[Bobski]

He is absolutely everywhere and that will have real value under a proper coach in a proper system. He is going to make us very hard to beat. He just covers so much ground.

I know so many don’t like him because he isn’t so great in possession but I love him. Chelsea midfield was sick looking at him today.

Can't ask him to be a sitting midfielder, not his game at all, would probably be great with a Carrick behind him.

 

[Lay]

He's no Ramires that's for sure. But good game.

 

[Thiagoal]

What the hell was he thinking with that lob? Did he think he was Brazilian or something? Other than that- big performance!!

 

[El Jefe]

If we are going to shit on him performances we have to be present in here to say he played very well today. Both him and McT showed they are better with another midfielder behind them, unfortunately for us that deems our midfield totally redundant in an attacking sense.

 

[Maluco]

Can't ask him to be a sitting midfielder, not his game at all, would probably be great with a Carrick behind him.

Yeah, he is definitely an 8. A box to box with an engine that can cover real ground. I am excited to see him under Ralf. I think he could well be his favorite player.

Those who don’t care for him need to remember he was often being asked to do things that weren’t natural for him, the coaching has been abysmal and his partner was McTominey.

 

[UNITED ACADEMY]

He was very good in general and 100% sure will be Rangnick favourite player but the guy's decision making in final third is shocking. Doesn't he know that he can't shoot? Surely there is awareness from footballer of what you good at and what you are not good at.

 

[Prodigy24]

Very good today except for the moment when he thought he was Eric Cantona.