Fred is one of the most underrated players in England

FrankWhite

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I really want him to do well. A huge fan of how tirelessly he tracks the ball and hounds the opposition but unfortunately he's just not got the quality we need offensively to get us to where we want to be and It's only a matter of time before he'll be out the starting eleven. For a team like ours where the forwards are encouraged to take risks because we rely on moments of quality interplay or individual brilliance (rather than a system to win matches), the midfield needs to bring the composure that create a base from which we build and probe until something special happens. Fred just isn't equipped to give us this. I think him, Martial and Lindelof will need to be replaced with players that better suit our style for us to have success.
This team needs work, especially if we lose Pogba in the summer, who by the way isn't perfect but it's far easier to teach Pogba what Fred does than to teach Fred what Pogba does.
 

Redlyn

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Fred is a good player and there is no way we are selling him. We need to replace Pogba and Matic (and in 1 year potentially cut losses on vdb if he doesn't come good). First replace those players with others who are good enough to displace Fred from our best team. He's a valuable squad member.
 

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Seriously dumbfounded by some of the posts I've seen in this thread. Hope we are all talking about Fred the Manchester United midfielder?
 

Brexit_Brigade

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Except that simply isn't true. In our team Pogba and Matic play a higher percentage of short passes than Fred does, and the percentage of long passes that Fred makes is higher than anyone who plays in the deeper midfield positions for Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Everton or West Ham, and for us is only just behind Pogba but comfortably ahead of Matic and McTominay.

In terms of forward passes I've touched on that in the post just above.
You're fighting a losing battle.

People will see the numbers, realize they don't like what they're saying, and default to the "eye test" to say "nah, he's actually a crap passer and a donkey". Like that guy a few posts above who said "good pass percentage? Okay, but let's see forward passes! HA!" and will no doubt find a way to tell you the numbers you provided are useless because lolstats.

I don't have much time for Fred myself, and I fundamentally disagree with the topic title. But even I'm not going to try and argue McTominay is a better passer or Mark Noble gets into this team over him.
 

MattofManchester

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I don't think he's underrated or overrated. He's just very average.

Good squad player.
 

Cantonagotmehere

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I like him, and agree with the view, that he is a 'very good squad player'.

His pass to Rashford the other night was divine..... as bad as some were yesterday.

Love this beauty too. (sorry if the attachment is handled wrong, 1st time posting a link)

 

bugmat

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Short pass = 5-15 yards
Medium pass = 15-30 yards
Long pass = more than 30 yards

Fred is certainly better than McTominay with his attacking passing if you mean creating opportunities from a deeper area. It's not even close unless you are basing it purely on the last couple of games where Fred has been poor and McTominay has been good. He combines well with Bruno in particular (a lot of the shots that he takes from just outside the box come directly from Fred passing through the lines to him), and also the likes of Cavani and Martial to a lesser extent. His passing through the lines to those players around the edge of the box is something that often creates good attacking moments for us. Once they get close to the box themselves it gets a bit closer and maybe McTominay might pull ahead there, although I wouldn't be sure of that. Over the course of the season I would expect Pogba to pull ahead of Fred in those stats, he's quite close at the moment and they include those early season games when he was poor and probably still recovering from Covid.
This is exactly what is happening @MadDogg - McT has never produced an assist as Fred did for Rashford vs Sociedad and it's not the first ball Fred's played like that. It's just the first someone delivered on scoring from.

There is a genuine bias for the young academy lad (understandably) where people have decided it's one or the other and are falling head over heels to claim McT is a more creative player than Fred. It's the opposite. What Scott has over fred is aerial ability and (wait for it) shooting & scoring. McT is young though and is improving. The reality is that we don't have to choose and if we improve defence they will be given freer reins.

Everyone including Pogba makes crap passes. Last season Pogba made a particular pass straight out of touch that was harangued for weeks on end for it. This was from harry "ball-playing CB" maguire yesterday:


They all do it because they are trying to pass into space for teammates to run on to, but if the teammate is on a different wavelength then it looks crap.

This lad if you believe posts on here cannot pass forward, create chances or beat a press:

 

Teja

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I think people are really stuck into their positions here and won't really change their minds, but I'll still try.

My belief (and what the data says) is that Fred is a good passer that links the defence to the attack. He won't really setup assists or slice the defence apart with crazy through balls like Ozil or KdB but he's good at receiving the ball deep and progressing it higher up the pitch to attacking players in space. By good, I mean he's as good as other CL quality midfielders at this - he's certainly not a Toni Kroos or a Thiago or even a Jorginho but certainly as good as others like Kante and better than proper DMs like Fabinho.

Happy to discuss with anyone else who can bring data to support their thesis because I'm just a random guy who's interested in footy data and yeah I might be totally missing something.

- If you believe he makes sideways passes - See the Progressive passes stat. It will simply exclude all passes that didn't progress the ball towards the opponents.

- If you believe he makes short passes only - look at Passes completed (short), Passes completed (medium), Passes completed (long) and his percentiles for that.

- If you believe he makes too many errors while passing: See Passes Intercepted, Passes blocked, Passes out of bounds). These actually have data that says Fred is significantly below average across top 5 leagues, but I think this is because he attempts to progress the ball forwards than play the safe sideways pass. But yeah some data there for the haters.
 

Poborsky's hair

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I love it when someone comes out with this sort of trash.

It’s great for having a discussion.
Haha got you! Noone wants to have a discussion with someone like you, sorry. Get rid. Why am I even replying to you, you're like this annoying kid at the class who always brings up some nonsense after nonsense and noone wants to listen to him but because teacher likes to play it proper, he always gets his time to talk.

If you reply to me, you go to my ignore list, really don't care about your so called "opinions". period.
 
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Haha got you! Noone wants to have a discussion with someone like you, sorry. Get rid. Why am I even replying to you, you're like this annoying kid at the class who always brings up some nonsense after nonsense and noone wants to listen to him but because teacher likes to play it proper, he always gets his time to talk.

If you reply to me, you go to my ignore list, really don't care about your so called "opinions". period.
toys. Pram. Done. Get me on ignore, you won’t be replying with your trash and I don’t even have to lift a finger.

:lol:
 

Borys

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I can see why people consider him as a "bad passer" despite him putting up decent numbers however you look at the data. At times he misplaces a pass completely, or puts a wrong weight on it. It just looks like a terrible miss.

I don't really have an issue with that, if he sticks to the basic stuff he's OK. What's important is his bad passes are rarely intercepted and it rarely leads to a dangerous situation. He has poor technique, opposed to Pogba who has great technique but loses focus. His passing can be dangerous for either team.

We need Fred if we want to continue playing heavy and lazy front 4.
 

Ekeke

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I can see why people consider him as a "bad passer" despite him putting up decent numbers however you look at the data. At times he misplaces a pass completely, or puts a wrong weight on it. It just looks like a terrible miss.

I don't really have an issue with that, if he sticks to the basic stuff he's OK. What's important is his bad passes are rarely intercepted and it rarely leads to a dangerous situation. He has poor technique, opposed to Pogba who has great technique but loses focus. His passing can be dangerous for either team.

We need Fred if we want to continue playing heavy and lazy front 4.
The problem is that its usually a basic pass that he gets completely wrong. Its not the more progressive pass he may play in the middle, its what should be an easy pass for someone in his position.

With players like Pogba you take a pass thats unlike him and inaccurate and weigh it against the top class passes he can play to unlock a defence. You dont mind him having a poor touch or pass when he should do better if later in the match he comes up with something special to make something happen.

With Fred you are weighing up one bad touch under pressure in his own half with a better touch under pressure in his own half, or one poor simple pass that goes out of play for getting another simple pass correct after. Theres very little yield in return for the bad play. Because he doesn't often attempt something that will have an effect on the scoreline. He tries to play simple passes into other players who will then take the risk to make something happen
 

He'sRaldo

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Fred is currently 28.

When his legs and workrate diminish, will he be good enough to get into the side based on his composure and passing alone?
 

bugmat

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Fred is currently 28.

When his legs and workrate diminish, will he be good enough to get into the side based on his composure and passing alone?
Few players are good enough at an Elite/PL level when their legs are gone, unless they are a choles or Pirlo type of passer. It's part of the game at the top. Evra's legs were done when he left us, but looked good enough in the slower Serie A at the time.
 

Borys

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The problem is that its usually a basic pass that he gets completely wrong. Its not the more progressive pass he may play in the middle, its what should be an easy pass for someone in his position.

With players like Pogba you take a pass thats unlike him and inaccurate and weigh it against the top class passes he can play to unlock a defence. You dont mind him having a poor touch or pass when he should do better if later in the match he comes up with something special to make something happen.

With Fred you are weighing up one bad touch under pressure in his own half with a better touch under pressure in his own half, or one poor simple pass that goes out of play for getting another simple pass correct after. Theres very little yield in return for the bad play. Because he doesn't often attempt something that will have an effect on the scoreline. He tries to play simple passes into other players who will then take the risk to make something happen

If you're "weighting" bad and good things each player does, there's a lot more stuff Fred does well that makes us more balanced side. Personally I have no issue with him not adding anything to the scoreline, there is front 4 + fullbacks joining the attack which is enough. In his case, it's the defensive side of his game that troubles me.

Pogba is opposite to Fred in a way he makes things happen, and has a good pass/shot on him, but with Paul in the middle the play is less fluid so I'm not really a fan.
 

DSG

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Basically every player in the world is guilty of misplacing that exact pass, so IMO that is extremely cherry-picked. In fact, I'd say if you're even a championship level player, you're making that pass atleast 95 times out of 100.

If you want to make the claim that he's a "poor" passer in general, we have pretty rich passing data and you'd need to paint a picture with that. The first question is poor relative to what? Other players who play a similar role at CL level clubs (Kovacic, Fabinho, Wijnaldum)? Players like Fellaini / AWB? Technical players like Thiago / Pogba / Gundogan / Kroos? If you compare him to the pass masters, yes obviously he's worse (but they don't have his defensive ability, so he brings other things to the table).

IMO Kante is a good benchmark. Progressive passes, pass completion under pressure, passes into final 3rd etc. etc. are all good stats to look at. Fred ranks pretty solid (~80+ percentile) across the big 5 leagues. It's effectively a wash between him and Kante passing wise. Kante can pass with both feet while Fred can't but Fred passes forward a lot more for example. You can almost paint a story of Fred the passer using that data that matches what I see live but I'm curious to see if you can use that data to come up with a narrative on why Fred is a bad passer.

https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/scout/365_euro/Fred-Scouting-Report
https://fbref.com/en/players/b9fbae28/scout/365_euro/NGolo-Kante-Scouting-Report

I think Pogba is an interesting comparison as well because Fred / Pogba basically play the same tactical role for us while Kante and Fred play for different teams and have different instructions tactically. Pogba is obviously better at basically everything offensive, but not by huge amounts. Pogba carries the ball a lot more, passes more direct, more two footed etc. etc. but again you don't need data to see this.

https://fbref.com/en/players/867239d3/scout/365_euro/Paul-Pogba-Scouting-Report

IMO his role in the team is to connect the defence to the attack and he does that extremely effectively.
I really didn't mean this to become a big "thing". I made a semi-long post about Fred's positive attributes and negatives as well, and I've come to the conclusion that in my mind, Fred is properly rated. He is elite at a couple of things -- pressure and workrate -- and pretty much average or below average in everything else.

I thought everyone was seeing what I see with Fred and his deficiencies. He's not a particularly accurate passer of the ball. Actually, let me rephrase: he's error prone in his passing. If you watch carefully, he has two to three square, 10 yards passes every match which literally go out of bounds. I do not see that with Matic and Scotty. Pogba at times.

This has led to a lot of posting of passing accuracy stats, where many have pointed out that Fred is actually our most accurate passer of the ball as a midfielder.

The passing accuracy data is pretty flimsy in my opinion. Kevin De Bruyne, probably the best passer of the football in this generation, is in the 7th percentile in passing accuracy for midfielders. He attempts passes that mere mortals don't think about, and that's why his numbers are so low. How do we know this? Because we watch football. Also, he attempts a lot of forward passes. But I think if you polled coaches, journalists and other football insiders, there would be a consensus the KDB is a great passer, despite his low completion rates. He is a very accurate passer and makes very few mistakes.

https://fbref.com/en/players/e46012d4/Kevin-De-Bruyne

Back to Fred. He is an important part of the squad. He is usually my choice to be in our first 11. But in my opinion, in order to challenge for a league title, we need a more reliable ball distributor in that position.
 

MikeeMike

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I like him, and agree with the view, that he is a 'very good squad player'.

His pass to Rashford the other night was divine..... as bad as some were yesterday.

Love this beauty too. (sorry if the attachment is handled wrong, 1st time posting a link)
And, as I have been constant in my opinion, he does have this ability but doesnt produce game after game. Great engine but offers little else consistency wise. I cannot agree he is “one of most underrated players in UK”

I often think his passing stats are so high as opponents are happy for him to have the ball front of defense as he is rarely a threat. The arguements start on here due to individual mistakes highlighted but unfortunately his errors are glaring.
 

tjb

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I don't think he's underrated or overrated. He's just very average.

Good squad player.
Fred would have been a good player if he could tackle...but even in that event, particularly as we play with a two man midfield, he doesn't offer enough to be a starter. People forget, the key to being a good premier league box to box player is having a sound idea of when the ball is going to drop and having the technique, touch and awareness to command possession and spread it to more dangerous players. Fred hasn't proven to be able to do that. He also struggles when playing deeper as he doesn't have the composure or first touch to offer our attackers an outlet to reduce the pressure of being closed down higher up the pitch, a skill which every title winning starting midfielder has always had. He also doesn't provide an outlet for our defenders, as his awareness and positioning are off and his lack of composure forces and inability to keep possession under threat ( which is a skill) forces him to give the ball back to our keeper or backline almost every time....Maguire, Wan Bissaka and Shaw are actually better at handling one on one duels in which they're the ones with the ball ( this shouldn't be the case). Finally, and most importantly, his inability to read and position himself to handle dangerous situations allows any team to counter against us through the middle. He doesn't have the awareness to plus holes in counter attacking situations, which means that unlike City or Liverpool where counters are easily turned into set defence situation or even killed off entirely due to great positioning, with Fred, unless Maguire handles it or Wan Bissaka deals creates a high turnover, we are consistently threatened with counters whenever we lose the ball high up the pitch when Fred plays as the DM.
 

Ekeke

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I really didn't mean this to become a big "thing". I made a semi-long post about Fred's positive attributes and negatives as well, and I've come to the conclusion that in my mind, Fred is properly rated. He is elite at a couple of things -- pressure and workrate -- and pretty much average or below average in everything else.

I thought everyone was seeing what I see with Fred and his deficiencies. He's not a particularly accurate passer of the ball. Actually, let me rephrase: he's error prone in his passing. If you watch carefully, he has two to three square, 10 yards passes every match which literally go out of bounds. I do not see that with Matic and Scotty. Pogba at times.

This has led to a lot of posting of passing accuracy stats, where many have pointed out that Fred is actually our most accurate passer of the ball as a midfielder.

The passing accuracy data is pretty flimsy in my opinion. Kevin De Bruyne, probably the best passer of the football in this generation, is in the 7th percentile in passing accuracy for midfielders. He attempts passes that mere mortals don't think about, and that's why his numbers are so low. How do we know this? Because we watch football. Also, he attempts a lot of forward passes. But I think if you polled coaches, journalists and other football insiders, there would be a consensus the KDB is a great passer, despite his low completion rates. He is a very accurate passer and makes very few mistakes.

https://fbref.com/en/players/e46012d4/Kevin-De-Bruyne

Back to Fred. He is an important part of the squad. He is usually my choice to be in our first 11. But in my opinion, in order to challenge for a league title, we need a more reliable ball distributor in that position.
This is pretty simply explained, however for some reason the one stat that site doesnt seem to have is key passes which I think is clearly a superior measure of how well you are finding the front players who can then have an attempt on goal than the pretty weird shot creating actions, where KDB is still extremely high but someone can be credited for a tackle on the halfway line rather than a defense splitting pass.

The most key passes in the league out of all players who have played more than 1 single 90 minutes is K D B with 3.5 on average per 90 mins

So yes absolutely, he's trying to make things happen a bit like Bruno but more consistently. Grealish has 3.4 and Bruno 3.0
 

Dante

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If people think that Fred is a below average Premier League midfielder, then the OP is right. They're underrating him.

But if people think that Fred is an above average Premier League midfielder, then they're overrating him.
 

Ekeke

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I would say overrated on here for sure but maybe not in the general footballing world. I've only heard him get praised as one of our best on the odd occasion from commentary etc.

He's good as a pressing hard working willing runner and he can occasionally make a nice pass. His technique for his long passing is good but his decision making isnt great so sometimes he messes up something you would think would be easy for him.

I think because we don't have perfectly balanced options you can make the case for him being a regular starter in our 4-2-3-1 as overall he's probably more effective defensively than Matic and McTominay in defending when the ball is on the floor. If we had a good DM in their prime I'd take that over him but we don't. Matic is still good on the ball when we're going forward but Fred's hard work is probably more effective defensively than Matic's smaller movement.

But I'd say Pogba and McTominay are currently better midfielders overall, its just that their their best skills are going forward and Fred's pressing and accumulative tackles help the defence more than Pogba or McTominay other than in the air. But with Lindelof being behind them and often De Gea in goal, having a DM who is weak in the air like Fred instead of 1 of the 3 options we have for DM who are tall and good in the air, its not always as simple as just choosing who is best defending when the ball is on the floor.

I'd give Fred a 7/10 overall and I do think he could get a bit better at not getting beat, he could improve his concentration and not mess up some simple passes or touches. But he's in his prime years now so it has to happen soon because if you're looking beyond the short term then McTominay and our youth development is more important than Fred in his prime improving. If for McTominay is going to play a decent amount and young midfielders are going to be given a chance in the first team to make it then Fred and Matic will need to make way for them. Matic alone wouldnt be enough games.

VDB, Garner after he returns from Forest and now Hannibal is training with the first team. Not sure Galbraith is going to get ahead of any of those but he's getting a look in. And thats without signing a secure DM which would help the defence.
 

MyOnlySolskjaer

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He's very Fellaini-esque. Can have some good moments, other moments he looks out of his depth, for me - this has parallels to when Fellaini was dribbling the ball out for a throw-in. I wouldn't lose sleep if we sold him, workhorse midfielders are very easy to find - it's those that have additional qualities on top of being a runner that stands out and unfortunately Fred won't get you goals, win any aerial battles or control games.
 

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This is exactly what is happening @MadDogg - McT has never produced an assist as Fred did for Rashford vs Sociedad and it's not the first ball Fred's played like that. It's just the first someone delivered on scoring from.

There is a genuine bias for the young academy lad (understandably) where people have decided it's one or the other and are falling head over heels to claim McT is a more creative player than Fred. It's the opposite. What Scott has over fred is aerial ability and (wait for it) shooting & scoring. McT is young though and is improving. The reality is that we don't have to choose and if we improve defence they will be given freer reins.

Everyone including Pogba makes crap passes. Last season Pogba made a particular pass straight out of touch that was harangued for weeks on end for it. This was from harry "ball-playing CB" maguire yesterday:


They all do it because they are trying to pass into space for teammates to run on to, but if the teammate is on a different wavelength then it looks crap.

This lad if you believe posts on here cannot pass forward, create chances or beat a press:

Great post. I've been arguing the case for Fred in this thread for ages. What really really pisses me off about the Fred is shit brigade is that they ignore the very same thing from his more illustrious teammates. Most of whom make just as many poor passes as Fred. They have what you might call a Fred bias, they completely ignore him until he misplaces a pass and then ask Gif lord to make a clip of that awful pass, exactly like the one for Maguire above. Bruno and Rashford do this a dozen time per game between them.

Anyway I'm sure they would still argue he is a shit passer even after watching that 11 minute clip.

The other stat they tend to ignore is the fact that out of the 7 games we have lost this season, Fred has only played in 2 of them. So we tend to lose when Fred doesnt play, what an amazing coincidence.
 

MikeeMike

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Great post. I've been arguing the case for Fred in this thread for ages. What really really pisses me off about the Fred is shit brigade is that they ignore the very same thing from his more illustrious teammates. Most of whom make just as many poor passes as Fred. They have what you might call a Fred bias, they completely ignore him until he misplaces a pass and then ask Gif lord to make a clip of that awful pass, exactly like the one for Maguire above. Bruno and Rashford do this a dozen time per game between them.

Anyway I'm sure they would still argue he is a shit passer even after watching that 11 minute clip.

The other stat they tend to ignore is the fact that out of the 7 games we have lost this season, Fred has only played in 2 of them. So we tend to lose when Fred doesnt play, what an amazing coincidence.
Well he’s playing great so far tonight.
You critisize the “Fred sh*t brigade” as they ignore the same thing from teammates?
So you agree Fred makes poor passes then.
My view is that he is not consistent and has flashes of quality. I see nothing underrated thats all.
 

Falcow

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Well he’s playing great so far tonight.
You critisize the “Fred sh*t brigade” as they ignore the same thing from teammates?
So you agree Fred makes poor passes then.
My view is that he is not consistent and has flashes of quality. I see nothing underrated thats all.
Yes he makes poor passes, no question but that's doesnt make him a poor passer or a crap player. I've already said in this thread that he is no Pirlo but neither is he Joey Barton.

Wouldnt really agree with you on the flashes of quality, I think he is among our more consistent performers but would concede he hasn't been great last few games (not watching tonight).

Probably overrated by his admirers and underrated by his detractors in general I think.
 

MikeeMike

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Yes he makes poor passes, no question but that's doesnt make him a poor passer or a crap player. I've already said in this thread that he is no Pirlo but neither is he Joey Barton.

Wouldnt really agree with you on the flashes of quality, I think he is among our more consistent performers but would concede he hasn't been great last few games (not watching tonight).

Probably overrated by
I am afraid that I probably used a word “bias” inappropriately because it is probably way to strong. Maybe a better wording is “subjective opinion”. However, sometimes there is no real difference between them. But the reality is that when people has developed an opinion, sometimes that opinion will drive it further and further and eventually affect the adjustment not balanced anymore. This is what I tried to express. No offense, it’s my own subjective opinion ;)
And First Season ?
 

bucksred

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Re: Fred Passing -
You have to look at the context of a pass, the technique - with lots of time and space (no pressure) is a pass I would expect and elite midfielder to make over varying distances.

Does Fred have the ability to make those forward passes under pressure and turn the technique into a skill and create attacks consistently?
 

LUC1f3R

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I find myself extremely annoyed when Fred screw up simple passes (when there is no pressure on him).
I like him a lot for his work rate, the guy runs for the team but some times he does slow down the game (for someone in DM position, I would prefer him to pass the ball to more technically gifted players faster especially when we are countering. He does that but can be improved by a LOT more)