You're fighting a losing battle.Except that simply isn't true. In our team Pogba and Matic play a higher percentage of short passes than Fred does, and the percentage of long passes that Fred makes is higher than anyone who plays in the deeper midfield positions for Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Everton or West Ham, and for us is only just behind Pogba but comfortably ahead of Matic and McTominay.
In terms of forward passes I've touched on that in the post just above.
This is exactly what is happening @MadDogg - McT has never produced an assist as Fred did for Rashford vs Sociedad and it's not the first ball Fred's played like that. It's just the first someone delivered on scoring from.Short pass = 5-15 yards
Medium pass = 15-30 yards
Long pass = more than 30 yards
Fred is certainly better than McTominay with his attacking passing if you mean creating opportunities from a deeper area. It's not even close unless you are basing it purely on the last couple of games where Fred has been poor and McTominay has been good. He combines well with Bruno in particular (a lot of the shots that he takes from just outside the box come directly from Fred passing through the lines to him), and also the likes of Cavani and Martial to a lesser extent. His passing through the lines to those players around the edge of the box is something that often creates good attacking moments for us. Once they get close to the box themselves it gets a bit closer and maybe McTominay might pull ahead there, although I wouldn't be sure of that. Over the course of the season I would expect Pogba to pull ahead of Fred in those stats, he's quite close at the moment and they include those early season games when he was poor and probably still recovering from Covid.
Haha got you! Noone wants to have a discussion with someone like you, sorry. Get rid. Why am I even replying to you, you're like this annoying kid at the class who always brings up some nonsense after nonsense and noone wants to listen to him but because teacher likes to play it proper, he always gets his time to talk.I love it when someone comes out with this sort of trash.
It’s great for having a discussion.
toys. Pram. Done. Get me on ignore, you won’t be replying with your trash and I don’t even have to lift a finger.Haha got you! Noone wants to have a discussion with someone like you, sorry. Get rid. Why am I even replying to you, you're like this annoying kid at the class who always brings up some nonsense after nonsense and noone wants to listen to him but because teacher likes to play it proper, he always gets his time to talk.
If you reply to me, you go to my ignore list, really don't care about your so called "opinions". period.
The problem is that its usually a basic pass that he gets completely wrong. Its not the more progressive pass he may play in the middle, its what should be an easy pass for someone in his position.I can see why people consider him as a "bad passer" despite him putting up decent numbers however you look at the data. At times he misplaces a pass completely, or puts a wrong weight on it. It just looks like a terrible miss.
I don't really have an issue with that, if he sticks to the basic stuff he's OK. What's important is his bad passes are rarely intercepted and it rarely leads to a dangerous situation. He has poor technique, opposed to Pogba who has great technique but loses focus. His passing can be dangerous for either team.
We need Fred if we want to continue playing heavy and lazy front 4.
Few players are good enough at an Elite/PL level when their legs are gone, unless they are a choles or Pirlo type of passer. It's part of the game at the top. Evra's legs were done when he left us, but looked good enough in the slower Serie A at the time.Fred is currently 28.
When his legs and workrate diminish, will he be good enough to get into the side based on his composure and passing alone?
The problem is that its usually a basic pass that he gets completely wrong. Its not the more progressive pass he may play in the middle, its what should be an easy pass for someone in his position.
With players like Pogba you take a pass thats unlike him and inaccurate and weigh it against the top class passes he can play to unlock a defence. You dont mind him having a poor touch or pass when he should do better if later in the match he comes up with something special to make something happen.
With Fred you are weighing up one bad touch under pressure in his own half with a better touch under pressure in his own half, or one poor simple pass that goes out of play for getting another simple pass correct after. Theres very little yield in return for the bad play. Because he doesn't often attempt something that will have an effect on the scoreline. He tries to play simple passes into other players who will then take the risk to make something happen
I really didn't mean this to become a big "thing". I made a semi-long post about Fred's positive attributes and negatives as well, and I've come to the conclusion that in my mind, Fred is properly rated. He is elite at a couple of things -- pressure and workrate -- and pretty much average or below average in everything else.Basically every player in the world is guilty of misplacing that exact pass, so IMO that is extremely cherry-picked. In fact, I'd say if you're even a championship level player, you're making that pass atleast 95 times out of 100.
If you want to make the claim that he's a "poor" passer in general, we have pretty rich passing data and you'd need to paint a picture with that. The first question is poor relative to what? Other players who play a similar role at CL level clubs (Kovacic, Fabinho, Wijnaldum)? Players like Fellaini / AWB? Technical players like Thiago / Pogba / Gundogan / Kroos? If you compare him to the pass masters, yes obviously he's worse (but they don't have his defensive ability, so he brings other things to the table).
IMO Kante is a good benchmark. Progressive passes, pass completion under pressure, passes into final 3rd etc. etc. are all good stats to look at. Fred ranks pretty solid (~80+ percentile) across the big 5 leagues. It's effectively a wash between him and Kante passing wise. Kante can pass with both feet while Fred can't but Fred passes forward a lot more for example. You can almost paint a story of Fred the passer using that data that matches what I see live but I'm curious to see if you can use that data to come up with a narrative on why Fred is a bad passer.
I think Pogba is an interesting comparison as well because Fred / Pogba basically play the same tactical role for us while Kante and Fred play for different teams and have different instructions tactically. Pogba is obviously better at basically everything offensive, but not by huge amounts. Pogba carries the ball a lot more, passes more direct, more two footed etc. etc. but again you don't need data to see this.
IMO his role in the team is to connect the defence to the attack and he does that extremely effectively.
And, as I have been constant in my opinion, he does have this ability but doesnt produce game after game. Great engine but offers little else consistency wise. I cannot agree he is “one of most underrated players in UK”I like him, and agree with the view, that he is a 'very good squad player'.
His pass to Rashford the other night was divine..... as bad as some were yesterday.
Love this beauty too. (sorry if the attachment is handled wrong, 1st time posting a link)
Fred would have been a good player if he could tackle...but even in that event, particularly as we play with a two man midfield, he doesn't offer enough to be a starter. People forget, the key to being a good premier league box to box player is having a sound idea of when the ball is going to drop and having the technique, touch and awareness to command possession and spread it to more dangerous players. Fred hasn't proven to be able to do that. He also struggles when playing deeper as he doesn't have the composure or first touch to offer our attackers an outlet to reduce the pressure of being closed down higher up the pitch, a skill which every title winning starting midfielder has always had. He also doesn't provide an outlet for our defenders, as his awareness and positioning are off and his lack of composure forces and inability to keep possession under threat ( which is a skill) forces him to give the ball back to our keeper or backline almost every time....Maguire, Wan Bissaka and Shaw are actually better at handling one on one duels in which they're the ones with the ball ( this shouldn't be the case). Finally, and most importantly, his inability to read and position himself to handle dangerous situations allows any team to counter against us through the middle. He doesn't have the awareness to plus holes in counter attacking situations, which means that unlike City or Liverpool where counters are easily turned into set defence situation or even killed off entirely due to great positioning, with Fred, unless Maguire handles it or Wan Bissaka deals creates a high turnover, we are consistently threatened with counters whenever we lose the ball high up the pitch when Fred plays as the DM.I don't think he's underrated or overrated. He's just very average.
Good squad player.
This is pretty simply explained, however for some reason the one stat that site doesnt seem to have is key passes which I think is clearly a superior measure of how well you are finding the front players who can then have an attempt on goal than the pretty weird shot creating actions, where KDB is still extremely high but someone can be credited for a tackle on the halfway line rather than a defense splitting pass.I really didn't mean this to become a big "thing". I made a semi-long post about Fred's positive attributes and negatives as well, and I've come to the conclusion that in my mind, Fred is properly rated. He is elite at a couple of things -- pressure and workrate -- and pretty much average or below average in everything else.
I thought everyone was seeing what I see with Fred and his deficiencies. He's not a particularly accurate passer of the ball. Actually, let me rephrase: he's error prone in his passing. If you watch carefully, he has two to three square, 10 yards passes every match which literally go out of bounds. I do not see that with Matic and Scotty. Pogba at times.
This has led to a lot of posting of passing accuracy stats, where many have pointed out that Fred is actually our most accurate passer of the ball as a midfielder.
The passing accuracy data is pretty flimsy in my opinion. Kevin De Bruyne, probably the best passer of the football in this generation, is in the 7th percentile in passing accuracy for midfielders. He attempts passes that mere mortals don't think about, and that's why his numbers are so low. How do we know this? Because we watch football. Also, he attempts a lot of forward passes. But I think if you polled coaches, journalists and other football insiders, there would be a consensus the KDB is a great passer, despite his low completion rates. He is a very accurate passer and makes very few mistakes.
Back to Fred. He is an important part of the squad. He is usually my choice to be in our first 11. But in my opinion, in order to challenge for a league title, we need a more reliable ball distributor in that position.
He's very Fellaini-esque. Can have some good moments, other moments he looks out of his depth, for me - this has parallels to when Fellaini was dribbling the ball out for a throw-in. I wouldn't lose sleep if we sold him, workhorse midfielders are very easy to find - it's those that have additional qualities on top of being a runner that stands out and unfortunately Fred won't get you goals, win any aerial battles or control games.
Great post. I've been arguing the case for Fred in this thread for ages. What really really pisses me off about the Fred is shit brigade is that they ignore the very same thing from his more illustrious teammates. Most of whom make just as many poor passes as Fred. They have what you might call a Fred bias, they completely ignore him until he misplaces a pass and then ask Gif lord to make a clip of that awful pass, exactly like the one for Maguire above. Bruno and Rashford do this a dozen time per game between them.This is exactly what is happening @MadDogg - McT has never produced an assist as Fred did for Rashford vs Sociedad and it's not the first ball Fred's played like that. It's just the first someone delivered on scoring from.
There is a genuine bias for the young academy lad (understandably) where people have decided it's one or the other and are falling head over heels to claim McT is a more creative player than Fred. It's the opposite. What Scott has over fred is aerial ability and (wait for it) shooting & scoring. McT is young though and is improving. The reality is that we don't have to choose and if we improve defence they will be given freer reins.
Everyone including Pogba makes crap passes. Last season Pogba made a particular pass straight out of touch that was harangued for weeks on end for it. This was from harry "ball-playing CB" maguire yesterday:
They all do it because they are trying to pass into space for teammates to run on to, but if the teammate is on a different wavelength then it looks crap.
This lad if you believe posts on here cannot pass forward, create chances or beat a press:
Well he’s playing great so far tonight.Great post. I've been arguing the case for Fred in this thread for ages. What really really pisses me off about the Fred is shit brigade is that they ignore the very same thing from his more illustrious teammates. Most of whom make just as many poor passes as Fred. They have what you might call a Fred bias, they completely ignore him until he misplaces a pass and then ask Gif lord to make a clip of that awful pass, exactly like the one for Maguire above. Bruno and Rashford do this a dozen time per game between them.
Anyway I'm sure they would still argue he is a shit passer even after watching that 11 minute clip.
The other stat they tend to ignore is the fact that out of the 7 games we have lost this season, Fred has only played in 2 of them. So we tend to lose when Fred doesnt play, what an amazing coincidence.
Yes he makes poor passes, no question but that's doesnt make him a poor passer or a crap player. I've already said in this thread that he is no Pirlo but neither is he Joey Barton.Well he’s playing great so far tonight.
You critisize the “Fred sh*t brigade” as they ignore the same thing from teammates?
So you agree Fred makes poor passes then.
My view is that he is not consistent and has flashes of quality. I see nothing underrated thats all.
Yes he makes poor passes, no question but that's doesnt make him a poor passer or a crap player. I've already said in this thread that he is no Pirlo but neither is he Joey Barton.
Wouldnt really agree with you on the flashes of quality, I think he is among our more consistent performers but would concede he hasn't been great last few games (not watching tonight).
Probably overrated by
And First Season ?I am afraid that I probably used a word “bias” inappropriately because it is probably way to strong. Maybe a better wording is “subjective opinion”. However, sometimes there is no real difference between them. But the reality is that when people has developed an opinion, sometimes that opinion will drive it further and further and eventually affect the adjustment not balanced anymore. This is what I tried to express. No offense, it’s my own subjective opinion