Fred is one of the most underrated players in England

DSG

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Missed Matic, Shaw and Rashford with that one.
He brings other qualities, really he does. His energy and tenacity are almost palpable. But he’s not a great passer.
 

AFC NimbleThumb

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Small thing, but does anyone else get irritated when he shoots and puts his hands up? Or when he does a shit pass and puts his hands up. No idea why, but it winds me up.
THIS.

I’ll be watching him wind up for a shot knowing nothings coming of it only for him to put his hands up in apology
to the player on the overlap he should have played it to in the first place.

His ability to find the space directly in-between 2 passing options is unique.
 

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Does anyone get really nervy when he's about to use his right foot for a pass?
He's awful with the weaker foot for a midfielder.
I don’t feel nervous at all when he passes. It’s DDG’s passes today again that I felt VERY nervous.
 

DSG

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Does anyone get really nervy when he's about to use his right foot for a pass?
He's awful with the weaker foot for a midfielder.
Yes. He’s good with his right foot with a stationary target up to 10 yards. Further than that is dicey.
 

MikeeMike

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I don’t feel nervous at all when he passes. It’s DDG’s passes today again that I felt VERY nervous.
Really ? Then what does? Blundering into Maguire’s clearance that could have been costly. Encroaching blatently into box on Bruno penalty which could have led to a retake? Poor game for me and didn’t really see any positives.
 

city-puma

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Really ? Then what does? Blundering into Maguire’s clearance that could have been costly. Encroaching blatently into box on Bruno penalty which could have led to a retake? Poor game for me and didn’t really see any positives.
When you have a bias in your mind (probably due to his first season with us. My guess only. Maybe not your case), you will pick up every mistake even unfortunate situation as a proof to further solidify your bias. It’s a normal nature for most of us. Maybe you can keep an open mind and try to see in a more balanced view.
The bottom line is that no player doesn’t make mistakes or doesn’t get into an unfortunate situation in games. My point is he is not superb today but definitely not as bad as many claimed here.
 

MikeeMike

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When you have a bias in your mind (probably due to his first season with us. My guess only. Maybe not your case), you will pick up every mistake even unfortunate situation as a proof to further solidify your bias. It’s a normal nature for most of us. Maybe you can keep an open mind and try to see in a more balanced view.
The bottom line is that no player doesn’t make mistakes or doesn’t get into an unfortunate situation in games. My point is he is not superb today but definitely not as bad as many claimed here.
His first season?
Nothing to do with bias although , yes i have highlighted errors from him (on a thread about Fred). The thread is titled “...one of most underrated players in England” and I simply cannot agree with that.
 

Axis317

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Fred, IMO, is a work horse. He breaks up play, always available, and is tireless. Really enjoy seeing him with McTominnay.
 

city-puma

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His first season?
Nothing to do with bias although , yes i have highlighted errors from him (on a thread about Fred). The thread is titled “...one of most underrated players in England” and I simply cannot agree with that.
I am afraid that I probably used a word “bias” inappropriately because it is probably way to strong. Maybe a better wording is “subjective opinion”. However, sometimes there is no real difference between them. But the reality is that when people has developed an opinion, sometimes that opinion will drive it further and further and eventually affect the adjustment not balanced anymore. This is what I tried to express. No offense, it’s my own subjective opinion ;)
 

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Don't think Fred is under rated at all.

He's very good at running around and you can't fault the guys work ethic. Jesus he's like a machine.

However I have always taken issue with his quality or rather lack of quality. His passing, shooting and decision making aren't up to par at all. He's a very average footballer and I think people have gone overboard in praise for him for basically being energetic. That's all he brings to the table for me.
 

Teja

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Missed Matic, Shaw and Rashford with that one.
He brings other qualities, really he does. His energy and tenacity are almost palpable. But he’s not a great passer.
Basically every player in the world is guilty of misplacing that exact pass, so IMO that is extremely cherry-picked. In fact, I'd say if you're even a championship level player, you're making that pass atleast 95 times out of 100.

If you want to make the claim that he's a "poor" passer in general, we have pretty rich passing data and you'd need to paint a picture with that. The first question is poor relative to what? Other players who play a similar role at CL level clubs (Kovacic, Fabinho, Wijnaldum)? Players like Fellaini / AWB? Technical players like Thiago / Pogba / Gundogan / Kroos? If you compare him to the pass masters, yes obviously he's worse (but they don't have his defensive ability, so he brings other things to the table).

IMO Kante is a good benchmark. Progressive passes, pass completion under pressure, passes into final 3rd etc. etc. are all good stats to look at. Fred ranks pretty solid (~80+ percentile) across the big 5 leagues. It's effectively a wash between him and Kante passing wise. Kante can pass with both feet while Fred can't but Fred passes forward a lot more for example. You can almost paint a story of Fred the passer using that data that matches what I see live but I'm curious to see if you can use that data to come up with a narrative on why Fred is a bad passer.

https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/scout/365_euro/Fred-Scouting-Report
https://fbref.com/en/players/b9fbae28/scout/365_euro/NGolo-Kante-Scouting-Report

I think Pogba is an interesting comparison as well because Fred / Pogba basically play the same tactical role for us while Kante and Fred play for different teams and have different instructions tactically. Pogba is obviously better at basically everything offensive, but not by huge amounts. Pogba carries the ball a lot more, passes more direct, more two footed etc. etc. but again you don't need data to see this.

https://fbref.com/en/players/867239d3/scout/365_euro/Paul-Pogba-Scouting-Report

IMO his role in the team is to connect the defence to the attack and he does that extremely effectively.
 

bugmat

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Really ? Then what does? Blundering into Maguire’s clearance that could have been costly. Encroaching blatently into box on Bruno penalty which could have led to a retake? Poor game for me and didn’t really see any positives.
Fred was on the ball first but running to our goal..so maguire shouts for the ball, fred leaves it....then maguire boots it against Fred. I'm sure Maguire forgave him when he saved him in that same half when that newcastle striker had harry for pace and Fred came in with a covering tackle after running half the pitch to help him retrieve the situation.

PS I feel I know you from somewhere - does your name rhyme with quagmire?
 

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Does anyone get really nervy when he's about to use his right foot for a pass?
He's awful with the weaker foot for a midfielder.
He has been recently but he's been fairly poor in general recently. Normally his right is fine and probably better than most, but because he uses his weak foot more than just about anyone else he ends up making more mistakes.
 

Golden Nugget

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Fred was on the ball first but running to our goal..so maguire shouts for the ball, fred leaves it....then maguire boots it against Fred. I'm sure Maguire forgave him when he saved him in that same half when that newcastle striker had harry for pace and Fred came in with a covering tackle after running half the pitch to help him retrieve the situation.
Exactly this. Some passes are crap - but he also pulls off nice ones that people forget or don't mention. His breakup play and his covering runs and tackles are class and saved us on 2 occasions at least today. Matic simply doesn't have the legs or speed for that.

His shooting with his right foot really should stop however. Yes he drives into the box and creates space for a shot... but I guess that's because everyone knows how bad his right foot is when shooting.
 

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Everyone keep talking about his passing, and I always watch him with that in mind and I don't notice anything more than on the 'nothing to worry about' level. His passing is absolutely fine for a player who offers other qualities.

He could pass both long, medium, short, and between the lines. He puts pace on the ball and retains it well in tight spaces. He passes into space when that is what is required, and to feet when needed.

He does have poor games and the occasional loose pass, but more often than not, he delivers with aplomb. I actually think he is one of our most convincing players with the ball.

I feel people are still stuck in 2018, in his first season when he'd misplace many passes in dangerous areas. It is not the case anymore, and he's come leaps and bounds. Many can't see it, simply because they don't have an open mind. It happened with Shaw as well.
 

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Everyone keep talking about his passing, and I always watch him with that in mind and I don't notice anything more than on the 'nothing to worry about' level. His passing is absolutely fine for a player who offers other qualities.

He could pass both long, medium, short, and between the lines. He puts pace on the ball and retains it well in tight spaces. He passes into space when that is what is required, and to feet when needed.

He does have poor games and the occasional loose pass, but more often than not, he delivers with aplomb. I actually think he is one of our most convincing players with the ball.

I feel people are still stuck in 2018, in his first season when he'd misplace many passes in dangerous areas. It is not the case anymore, and he's come leaps and bounds. Many can't see it, simply because they don't have an open mind. It happened with Shaw as well.
Agree. He has the odd error here and there but who doesn’t.

I’m not overly happy having to play both Fred and McTominay but I cut Fred some slack as his energy adds a lot to our performance.

Regarding his passing I was thinking this last night, its funny that he can sometimes play a nice long driven pass but cannot hit the target when shooting on the edge of the opposition box. :lol:
 

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Fred is a useful part of the team and that is evident, however we won't win anything significant with a limited midfielder like him in the team. Everything useful about him comes from his hardworking, constant input and energy, the moment it comes to him offering something more on the ball or in attack his is very very inconsistent.

I mean Jonjo Shelvey or Noble are better on the ball and more consistent than him, and it hurts my eyes. From maybe underrated, he's become overrated on here imo.
 

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I thought Fred finally overcame his difficulties this season and is back to his best.
But in the last game, he was utter shyt. Far too many mis-passes for a midfielder. Putting him next to Matic slowed our game far too much.
And yes I'm frustrated with him putting his hand up for every mishit (if it were few, it was okay but that wasn't the case).

We really need a DM or McT to stay fit. I would prefer Matic to be released a get someone better
Fred is appearing overrated imo
 

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His passing is unacceptable.

It doesn't matter how good he is at other things, you're always going to struggle having a central midfielder who can't pass the ball.

We need an upgrade.
I didn't watch the game but if he can't pass then we're royally screwed given Mctominay can barely pass adequately himself.
 

SirScholes

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THIS.

I’ll be watching him wind up for a shot knowing nothings coming of it only for him to put his hands up in apology
to the player on the overlap he should have played it to in the first place.

His ability to find the space directly in-between 2 passing options is unique.
I’d feel better if it was on his left foot, he’s a pro footballer so capable of hitting a shot on his strong side but 90% of the time it’s on his right foot!
if I’m the defender I’d happily let him shoot from where ever on his right
 

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I’d be interested in seeing the scouting reports on Fred that led us to pay over £50m for him.......

Was he sanctioned by Jose? Would fit I suppose...
 

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Don't think Fred is under rated at all.

He's very good at running around and you can't fault the guys work ethic. Jesus he's like a machine.

However I have always taken issue with his quality or rather lack of quality. His passing, shooting and decision making aren't up to par at all. He's a very average footballer and I think people have gone overboard in praise for him for basically being energetic. That's all he brings to the table for me.
Personally think Fred is overrated. So couldn't agree more, his range of passing is awful. he passes sideways and backwards, first touch is not great. he is not starting XI Man United quality, neither is McTom. The ability to run is a prerequisite of a CM. In order for us to challenge for titles and trophies, we need improvements to the spine, Striker, CDM, CB.
 
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Not his greatest game today.
I would hope not!

Don't think Fred is under rated at all.

He's very good at running around and you can't fault the guys work ethic. Jesus he's like a machine.

However I have always taken issue with his quality or rather lack of quality. His passing, shooting and decision making aren't up to par at all. He's a very average footballer and I think people have gone overboard in praise for him for basically being energetic. That's all he brings to the table for me.
It’s the running around and energy that people like, and it’s because we don’t see a lot of it elsewhere - so that gets extremely overrated.

Opposition fans (the rational ones) often have the best perspective on our players. I imagine it wouldn’t be glowing.
 
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I’d feel better if it was on his left foot, he’s a pro footballer so capable of hitting a shot on his strong side but 90% of the time it’s on his right foot!
if I’m the defender I’d happily let him shoot from where ever on his right
If you are a defender, you are happy for him to shoot full stop, no matter the foot.
 

Olecurls99

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Basically every player in the world is guilty of misplacing that exact pass, so IMO that is extremely cherry-picked. In fact, I'd say if you're even a championship level player, you're making that pass atleast 95 times out of 100.

If you want to make the claim that he's a "poor" passer in general, we have pretty rich passing data and you'd need to paint a picture with that. The first question is poor relative to what? Other players who play a similar role at CL level clubs (Kovacic, Fabinho, Wijnaldum)? Players like Fellaini / AWB? Technical players like Thiago / Pogba / Gundogan / Kroos? If you compare him to the pass masters, yes obviously he's worse (but they don't have his defensive ability, so he brings other things to the table).

IMO Kante is a good benchmark. Progressive passes, pass completion under pressure, passes into final 3rd etc. etc. are all good stats to look at. Fred ranks pretty solid (~80+ percentile) across the big 5 leagues. It's effectively a wash between him and Kante passing wise. Kante can pass with both feet while Fred can't but Fred passes forward a lot more for example. You can almost paint a story of Fred the passer using that data that matches what I see live but I'm curious to see if you can use that data to come up with a narrative on why Fred is a bad passer.

https://fbref.com/en/players/b853e0ad/scout/365_euro/Fred-Scouting-Report
https://fbref.com/en/players/b9fbae28/scout/365_euro/NGolo-Kante-Scouting-Report

I think Pogba is an interesting comparison as well because Fred / Pogba basically play the same tactical role for us while Kante and Fred play for different teams and have different instructions tactically. Pogba is obviously better at basically everything offensive, but not by huge amounts. Pogba carries the ball a lot more, passes more direct, more two footed etc. etc. but again you don't need data to see this.

https://fbref.com/en/players/867239d3/scout/365_euro/Paul-Pogba-Scouting-Report

IMO his role in the team is to connect the defence to the attack and he does that extremely effectively.
Very much this.
People claiming he's a terrible passer need to back this up with something. Everyone plays bad passes every now and then but his stats show he's right up there with the best in his position. He's better than most midfielders in the league. If you don't think that you're underating him.
 
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Very much this.
People claiming he's a terrible passer need to back this up with something. Everyone plays bad passes every now and then but his stats show he's right up there with the best in his position. He's better than most midfielders in the league. If you don't think that you're underating him.
you think he’s one of the best passers in the league? This is all based on his pass completion stat (one stat, that has no nuance) but ignoring what you see on the pitch?
 

Olecurls99

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you think he’s one of the best passers in the league? This is all based on his pass completion stat (one stat, that has no nuance) but ignoring what you see on the pitch?
I never said he's one of the best passers in the league. I said he's up there with the players that play the workhorse position. Also read the post I replied too. His stats are based on what we all see on the pitch. A good pass percentage. A lot of forward passes.

Good stats are a good way to counter ill informed or biased bilge.
 

thesheriffjw

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Hahaha. A great passer? Give over
Passing backwards and sideways, show a complete lack of intent, so the pass conpletion ratio should be high. Lets see the stats on forward pass completion.

He is a donkey and would not get into the city, liverpool, leicester, spurs, everton, nor west ham midfield.
That fact alone should tell you his quality
 
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I never said he's one of the best passers in the league. I said he's up there with the players that play the workhorse position. Also read the post I replied too. His stats are based on what we all see on the pitch. A good pass percentage. A lot of forward passes.

Good stats are a good way to counter ill informed or biased bilge.
:lol:

pretentious. Yes.
 

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Hahaha. A great passer? Give over
Passing backwards and sideways, show a complete lack of intent, so the pass conpletion ratio should be high. Lets see the stats on forward pass completion.

He is a donkey and would not get into the city, liverpool, leicester, spurs, everton, nor west ham midfield.
That fact alone should tell you his quality
Since you asked for stats: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/midfield-creativity-stats-and-comparisons.460870/#post-26845410

Since it's a long post I'll just make a couple of tldr points. Out of the most notable 26 deeper midfielders in the league, Fred is #3 for passing to players who then take a shot and #2 for Expected Assists. He's #13 for how much he passes it forward in general.

He's not a 'great' passer, but he's also not a 'donkey'. He's had two poor league games in a row and people are jumping in like it's an example of how he always plays. His normal passing ability falls in the 'good enough' category. It would be fantastic if he were better, but in reality he's better than a lot of the others midfielders in the league that people compare him to and try to say are better.
 
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Very much this.
People claiming he's a terrible passer need to back this up with something. Everyone plays bad passes every now and then but his stats show he's right up there with the best in his position. He's better than most midfielders in the league. If you don't think that you're underating him.
That's because 90% of his passes are 5 meters long to the CBs or his partner in midfielder, he can't make quality passes forward on consistent basis, and anyone with a good set of eyes would notice that. For example, that pass he made for Rashford against Sociedad, he would misplace or mess up in another way, 3 times out of 5.
 

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‘Cept the title of the thread is claiming Fred is underrated. I don’t see how that is disrespectful. He’s properly rated around the league and world football, it’s our own fans that overrate him. If He was so good, wouldn’t he be a regular starter for Brazil? Linked with top clubs?

Regarding Bruno, there are times when he frustrates, but he backs it up with moments of brilliance nearly every match. It’s not a great comparison, mate.
Agreed, which is why I didn't compare them and why I called it pathetic.
 

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That's because 90% of his passes are 5 meters long to the CBs or his partner in midfielder, he can't make quality passes forward on consistent basis, and anyone with a good set of eyes would notice that.
Except that simply isn't true. In our team Pogba and Matic play a higher percentage of short passes than Fred does, and the percentage of long passes that Fred makes is higher than anyone who plays in the deeper midfield positions for Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Everton or West Ham, and for us is only just behind Pogba but comfortably ahead of Matic and McTominay.

In terms of forward passes I've touched on that in the post just above.
 

gazbradley

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I don’t dislike Fred and he brings something others don’t but when I watch him I always come away feeling he’s a player we need to upgrade on if we’re gonna challenge for major trophies again
 

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Except that simply isn't true. In our team Pogba and Matic play a higher percentage of short passes than Fred does, and the percentage of long passes that Fred makes is higher than anyone who plays in the deeper midfield positions for Chelsea, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Everton or West Ham, and for us is only just behind Pogba but comfortably ahead of Matic and McTominay.

In terms of forward passes I've touched on that in the post just above.
These stats that you quote, how do they classify a long pass? And I should have probably inserted safe passes not just short, that way it would probably paint a different picture. And seeing those stats makes me think how very little meaning they have considering how much Thiago stands out, while being awful.

By your table Fred is obviously better than McT and Pogba in attacking build up passing, a which is far from the truth. You watch him play and everything about his passing is awkward and sloppy, you will find him around the box unmarked and on the ball with opposition not being too worried that he can pull something of quality.
 

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Everyone keep talking about his passing, and I always watch him with that in mind and I don't notice anything more than on the 'nothing to worry about' level. His passing is absolutely fine for a player who offers other qualities.

He could pass both long, medium, short, and between the lines. He puts pace on the ball and retains it well in tight spaces. He passes into space when that is what is required, and to feet when needed.

He does have poor games and the occasional loose pass, but more often than not, he delivers with aplomb. I actually think he is one of our most convincing players with the ball.

I feel people are still stuck in 2018, in his first season when he'd misplace many passes in dangerous areas. It is not the case anymore, and he's come leaps and bounds. Many can't see it, simply because they don't have an open mind. It happened with Shaw as well.
This was his poorest game in terms of passing in a while, yet he´s still the one who covers the most ground, wins the ball back the most and sets us on counters quickly enough. He and Van Bissaka are the two players who sniff the danger first and quickly close down players so we can successfully regroup or win the ball straight away to continue attack as well. The problem is when people criticise him when he misplace one pass out of 50 in his better games, how dare he? You can tell which posters have no idea about football or simply an agenda against him, because obviously you can´t end up with over 90% pass completion every time.

Everyone who ever played football or have some sort of football IQ can tell you that footballers have different roles and Fred is by far our best defensive player in midfield who ads ballance. People would be shocked to see how bad passer the world cup winner and EPL winner Kanté is. Really same story with Herrera who was a different player but his job was to win the ball back and quickly set up a counter while surrounded by "more creative " players who spend way more time on the ball to execute the killer passes. Both of them have a decent vision and through ball on them but you simply can´t have too many players who sits on the ball for ages because the team would move the ball way too slow in even more zombie fashion with Matic, Pogba, Maguire around and thats only good when you have a players who can. Obviously both players are a bit shy of goals and assists because they don´t get into box as often as others because they shield the defense for counters and keep the ball moving quickly etc..
 

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These stats that you quote, how do they classify a long pass? And I should have probably inserted safe passes not just short, that way it would probably paint a different picture. And seeing those stats makes me think how very little meaning they have considering how much Thiago stands out, while being awful.

By your table Fred is obviously better than McT and Pogba in attacking build up passing, a which is far from the truth. You watch him play and everything about his passing is awkward and sloppy, you will find him around the box unmarked and on the ball with opposition not being too worried that he can pull something of quality.
Short pass = 5-15 yards
Medium pass = 15-30 yards
Long pass = more than 30 yards

Fred is certainly better than McTominay with his attacking passing if you mean creating opportunities from a deeper area. It's not even close unless you are basing it purely on the last couple of games where Fred has been poor and McTominay has been good. He combines well with Bruno in particular (a lot of the shots that he takes from just outside the box come directly from Fred passing through the lines to him), and also the likes of Cavani and Martial to a lesser extent. His passing through the lines to those players around the edge of the box is something that often creates good attacking moments for us. Once they get close to the box themselves it gets a bit closer and maybe McTominay might pull ahead there, although I wouldn't be sure of that. Over the course of the season I would expect Pogba to pull ahead of Fred in those stats, he's quite close at the moment and they include those early season games when he was poor and probably still recovering from Covid.