Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap

[SAFMUTD]

You can think whatever you want but it isn't a substitute for what actually happened. Busquets is immovable and Barcelona haven't really made room for De Jong in his ideal role.

Maybe there's a reason for that.

 

[JPRouve]

So 3 different managers over the past 3 seasons at Barca and they all wanted to play Busquets in that position, all three managers struggling but not one realized that De Jong was better?

Maybe he's just not so great, it happens. Specially with that Ajax generation, none of them has been able to live up to the expectations. Including De Ligt, Van de Beek, Ziyech and also De Jong.

I wouldn't say that he is better than Busquets, the issue is that Busquets can't play an other role while De Jong can even if it's not ideal for him.

 

[Cassidy]

So 3 different managers over the past 3 seasons at Barca and they all wanted to play Busquets in that position, all three managers struggling but not one realized that De Jong was better?

Maybe he's just not so great, it happens. Specially with that Ajax generation, none of them has been able to live up to the expectations. Including De Ligt, Van de Beek, Ziyech and also De Jong.

I don't know if they wanted to but Busquets has always played there. He is obviously a powerful figure in the team

 

[VinzentFTW]

High price. High wages. Doesnt want to leave, and will only be sold if Barca has to. Yeah ticks all the boxes for a proper United marquee signing.

 

[Terranova]

So 3 different managers over the past 3 seasons at Barca and they all wanted to play Busquets in that position, all three managers struggling but not one realized that De Jong was better?

Maybe he's just not so great, it happens. Specially with that Ajax generation, none of them has been able to live up to the expectations. Including De Ligt, Van de Beek, Ziyech and also De Jong.

Busquets can't play at any other position, De Jong can, albeit less well. But still good enough for Barca. So not a hard decision to make.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I wouldn't say that he is better than Busquets, the issue is that Busquets can't play an other role while De Jong can even if it's not ideal for him.

Like I said before, it sounds like Pogba's excuses to me.

If a player is that good to warrant 350K wages you play him on his best position. Why? Because he's world class, and you build your team around that kind of players.

I'm not saying De Jong isn't a good player, I'm saying is he's not as good to warrant 350K a week.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I don't know if they wanted to but Busquets has always played there. He is obviously a powerful figure in the team

So now it's a thing about Busquets having too much power on Barcelona? I think you're stretching it a little bit to far to excuse the fact De Jong hasn't performed like he was expected.

 

[Cassidy]

So now it's a thing about Busquets having too much power on Barcelona? I think you're stretching it a little bit to far to excuse the fact De Jong hasn't performed like he was expected.

He has actually performed reasonably well in the position he is playing.
But quite obviously not at the level he is for the national team or prior when playing in the role that's suits his skillset most.

You brought up Modic and Kroos and they both had the same issue at Madrid.

Busquets has a lot of power yes, but he is also a very good player, actually its just not a very well thought out signing from Barca, if they had no intention of phasing Busquets out of his role

A similar thing happened with Kante at Chelsea under Sarri, it would be like City signing Declan Rice and playing him in front of Rodri and expecting him to excel at being more attacking

 

[JPRouve]

Like I said before, it sounds like Pogba's excuses to me.

If a player is that good to warrant 350K wages you play him on his best position. Why? Because he's world class, and you build your team around that kind of players.

I'm not saying De Jong isn't a good player, I'm saying is he's not as good to warrant 350K a week.

For argument sake, what if you have two world class players that have overlapping strength but one can do other things?

 

[SAFMUTD]

Busquets can't play at any other position, De Jong can, albeit less well. But still good enough for Barca. So not a hard decision to make.

Sounds hard to believe to me, specially in a struggling Barca's team. If they were winning it be easier to think they don't mind sacrificing De Jong's form to accommodate Busquets. But they've been struggling for years now, I don't think that's the issue.

 

[Cassidy]

Sounds hard to believe to me, specially in a struggling Barca's team. If they were winning it be easier to think they don't mind sacrificing De Jong's form to accommodate Busquets. But they've been struggling for years now, I don't think that's the issue.

Yes and DeJong wasn't and isn't the problem

 

[SAFMUTD]

He has actually performed reasonably well in the position he is playing.
But quite obviously not at the level he is for the national team or prior when playing in the role that's suits his skillset most.

You brought up Modic and Kroos and they both had the same issue at Madrid.

Busquets has a lot of power yes, but he is also a very good player, actually its just not a very well thought out signing from Barca, if they had no intention of phasing Busquets out of his role

A similar thing happened with Kante at Chelsea under Sarri, it would be like City signing Declan Rice and playing him in front of Rodri and expecting him to excel at being more attacking

When did either Modric or Kroos had that problem at Madrid? For a a couple of ganes?

I don't think I recall them being misused for 3 years.

Anyway I don't think we should be buying a player on 350K wages that hasn't been great, for whatever reason, for 3 years now.

Hopefully if we do it works out, but it's a huge risk move.

 

[Cassidy]

When did either Modric or Kroos had that problem at Madrid? For a a couple of ganes?

I don't think I recall them being misused for 3 years.

Anyway I don't think we should be buying a player on 350K wages that hasn't been great, for whatever reason, for 3 years now.

Hopefully if we do it works out, but it's a huge risk move.

You really have a very short memory if you think Modric was only a couple of games or even Kroos.

 

[SAFMUTD]

For argument sake, what if you have two world class players that have overlapping strength but one can do other things?

But that's not the case is it? Or you'd call
current Busquets world-class?

You're painting it as if it's De Jong against prime Casemiro. It's not, is an aging Busquets that's hasn't been great for quite some time now.

 

[SAFMUTD]

You really have a very short memory if you think Modric was only a couple of games or even Kroos.

Well please refresh my very short memory, when did those two struggle for complete seasons with Madrid?

 

[JPRouve]

But that's not the case is it? Or you'd call
current Busquets world-class?

You're painting it as if it's De Jong against prime Casemiro. It's not, is an aging Busquets that's hasn't been great for quite some time now.

Do you watch Barcelona?

 

[SAFMUTD]

Do you watch Barcelona?

Not every game, but about half of their games. Living in Mexico I have a lot of friends who are Madrid's and Barcelona's fans so that's why.

 

[Cassidy]

Well please refresh my very short memory, when did those two struggle for complete seasons with Madrid?

Modric first season at Madird, and also Kroos first season too

 

[JPRouve]

Not every game, but about half of their games. Living in Mexico I have a lot of friends who are Madrid's and Barcelona's fans so that's why.

So you know that he has been played out of position?

 

[JPRouve]

Modric first season at Madird, and also Kroos first season too

Also Benitez and Lopetegui stints.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Modric first season at Madird, and also Kroos first season too

So about 10 years ago, that's convenient.

 

[DWelbz19]

Well please refresh my very short memory, when did those two struggle for complete seasons with Madrid?

Marca named Luka Modric as the worst signing of La Liga that season, pipping Alex Song. He had a stinky first season.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Also Benitez and Lopetegui stints.

That was on the team being on poor form, not on Modric and Kroos being player out of position. Not even the dumbest manager would change their position, that midfield has been settled and proven for years.

 

[DWelbz19]

So about 10 years ago, that's convenient.

Eh? The point was if players like Modric and Kroos had poor first seasons, why can't Frenkie de Jong at Barcelona?

 

[Cassidy]

So about 10 years ago, that's convenient.

Convenient how exactly? I'm not really understanding your point

 

[JPRouve]

That was on the team being on poor form, not on Modric and Kroos being player out of position. Not even the dumbest manager would change their position, that midfield has been settled and proven for years.

Why was the team on poor form? Kroos was used as a DM, a single pivot.

 

[SAFMUTD]

So you know that he has been played out of position?

By watching Barcelona? Don't get your point. How do you know he's been played out of position? You don't get that by watching a team.

 

[Cassidy]

That was on the team being on poor form, not on Modric and Kroos being player out of position. Not even the dumbest manager would change their position, that midfield has been settled and proven for years.

It did change though... When Benetiz was there Kroos and Modric was the double pivot wasn't it? There was a lot of drama about adding in Casemiro which it seemed Benetiz wanted to do but wasn't allowed to if my memory serves me correctly.

Infact wasn't the issue that Kroos wasn't good enough defensively? However Madrid kept giving him too much defensive responsibility which was eventually solved when they switched to the midfield 3?

 

[SAFMUTD]

Eh? The point was if players like Modric and Kroos had poor first seasons, why can't Frenkie de Jong at Barcelona?

What? The point isn't that De Jong has been poor. He hasn't, he just hasn't been great.

The point is that I don't recall great players being played out of position for years. Modric or Kroos having poor first (which I don't recall they may or may not have had them but will conceed due to not knowing) has nothing to do with it.

 

[JPRouve]

By watching Barcelona? Don't get your point. How do you know he's been played out of position? You don't get that by watching a team.

I'm trying to understand how you didn't notice that De Jong was used higher than he was for Ajax or Netherland.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Why was the team on poor form? Kroos was used as a DM, a single pivot.

IMO it was that with Benitez it was poor management and with Lopetegui he wanted to change the senior figures at the squad which ultimately backfired and player power proved to be stronger than him.

But you'll have to ask Madrid fans that for more accuracy

Don't know how this has anything to do with De Jong btw.

 

[Thoms]

If UTD could get him, DO IT. He's a top player and I would love to see him with ETH again. Nike pays half his wages.

 

[Cassidy]

IMO it was that with Benitez it was poor management and with Lopetegui he wanted to change the senior figures at the squad which ultimately backfired and player power proved to be stronger than him.

But you'll have to ask Madrid fans that for more accuracy

Don't know how this has anything to do with De Jong btw.

Kroos was played out of position... sigh

 

[SAFMUTD]

I'm trying to understand how you didn't notice that De Jong was used higher than he was for Ajax or Netherland.

I didn't watch him at Ajax, besides the UCL games with all the hype. With the neederlands as well, it's an odd game here and there.

Did you watch him regularly at Ajax and neederlands?

 

[DevTheRed]

Can’t see us getting him.. is he not the Busquets replacement when he retires?

 

[JPRouve]

I didn't watch him at Ajax, besides the UCL games with all the hype. With the neederlands as well, it's an odd game here and there.

Did you watch him regularly at Ajax and neederlands?

Yes. His best role was as a deep lying playmaker, he sometimes was essentially acting as an old school sweeper.

 

[SAFMUTD]

Kroos was played out of position... sigh

When? Are you seriously claiming that Kroos was played out of position under Benitez and Lopetegui? It's been the same midfield formation since Casemiro arrived to Madrid back in 2015.

 

[Cassidy]

When? Are you seriously claiming that Kroos was played out of position under Benitez and Lopetegui? It's been the same midfield formation since Casemiro arrived to Madrid back in 2015.

I think you are wrong...

 

[SAFMUTD]

Yes. His best role was as a deep lying playmaker, he sometimes was essentially acting as an old school sweeper.

Well, it may be so. I not against it, I'm not saying he hasn't been played outside his best position that may be true.

I just don't think we should get a player with such high wages that hasn't been great for the last years. He hasn't had a single season where he justified those kind of wages, he's a good player, just not world-class.

He may still have world-class potential and could be limited due to coaching, playing out of position, or whatever but as of today he's not worth that kind of wages.

 

[SAFMUTD]

I think you are wrong...

Well this has deviated into a Madrid midfield discussion Id be happy to continue but in order to dont derail the thread I'd say what I said a couple of post before.

I don't think we should pay him that much, he's not up to the level of those wages. That be because of playing out of position or whatever, but truth is he hasnt. We may get him and he may turn our to be worth them, but that's a gamble and I don't think we should gamble on it on our current state.