That's exactly what you did and instead that it wasn't the case. As for the rest it's fine, I agree that his wage is a bit strange.
Frenkie de Jong | The last muppeting lap
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
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I can guarantee you that De Bruyne's reported wages are a fraction of what he is actually being paid by the Sheiks. Trying to compare wage bills with Man City is futile because theirs is a work of fiction.
How can you guarantee that?
I mean it wouldnt surprise me that City players are paid under some kind of outside scheme, but I would go as far to say I can guarantee it.
Right ok. Then we should just move on, difference of opinion
Maybe because there are plenty of reports which state this case, and City are being investigated by the PL for this and other things over the past 3 years?
But they hasn't been actually charged have they? So saying he or anyone can guarantee it it's exaggerating.
Like I said, it wouldn't surprise me one bit. But until proven no one can guarantee it.
Come on bro, you and I are made for these Muppet sagas.
It's not so much about their passing statistics but the roles they prefer, or let's say how they are driven to interpret their roles as midfield players.
One of the reasons we are so bad at keeping the ball is that our midfield is too flat, no verticality, because all our midfielders essentially play a similar style apart from Matic and Bruno.
If we look at all the best midfield trios out there, you will notice that they most of the time favor a setup of a shielder, a controller and a free radical. Let's take the best midfield of all time, Busquets (shielder), Xavi (controller) and Iniesta (free radical). Of course the bonus with this midfield was, they all three were ace playmakers in their own right, but they way they interpreted their midfield positions produces one of the strongest midfield triangles that you can get.
I think the trio of yours could work with a shielder in there instead of Bellingham or Bruno, de Jong is the best controller out of that trio, if you then add a shielder like Rice into the mix I think you have a midfield that can really control games again.
i think that is relatively true in the past but not so much now in the modern game....you don't have to play a destroyer as proven by Liverpool when they play Thiago, Henderson, Fabinho. I wouldn't consider Fabinho a traditional destroyer but is a willing ball winner.
Bellingham, De Jong are certainly willing ball winners and Bruno is no less a ball winner than Thiago....the real objective is controlling the midfield and i think on the ball those guys could do it but again it's about decision making in their distribution
I remember I was ridiculed a couple of months ago when I said he was going to be on the market this summer. Every told me that Barca is doing fine financially. While that is true, that they are doing better, FDJ is still a drain on their wages. He is on higher wages than Sancho is at United.
And with their talented midfielders coming up from the academy I see Barca using this as a way to trim more their wage budget and get more financial stability while reinvesting in other areas of the pitch.
The only worry is if the actually wants to come here. I just hope that that he doesn't turn into another ADM, considering that he also wasn't too keen to be here and we know how that one turned out. But I imagine with ETH, he will get all the assurances he needs.
I think he can be our Carrick. He just needs a combative midfielder around him and it so happens that Fred just fits the profile.
While his passing might not be the greatest, he would fit perfectly in a double pivot with Frenkie. While he wins the ball and passes it to De Jong to start an attack or De Jong can pass the ball to Fred so he can carry it up the pitch to our attacking 4.
And with their talented midfielders coming up from the academy I see Barca using this as a way to trim more their wage budget and get more financial stability while reinvesting in other areas of the pitch.
The only worry is if the actually wants to come here. I just hope that that he doesn't turn into another ADM, considering that he also wasn't too keen to be here and we know how that one turned out. But I imagine with ETH, he will get all the assurances he needs.
I think he can be our Carrick. He just needs a combative midfielder around him and it so happens that Fred just fits the profile.
While his passing might not be the greatest, he would fit perfectly in a double pivot with Frenkie. While he wins the ball and passes it to De Jong to start an attack or De Jong can pass the ball to Fred so he can carry it up the pitch to our attacking 4.
I highly doubt Pogba can do what Barca would want him to do.
Frenkie de Jong would likely be a Fred replacement as you would need a much more defensively solid player than Fred. Fred is a box to box player. You need a Tchouameni or Declan Rice next to Frenkie De Jong. De Jong at Barca has developed into being pretty much a 0 defensively... So it wouldn't be a whole lot different than Pogba from a defensive POV (though I have faith Ten Hag could improve that part as it was decent at Ajax). The difference is on the ball De Jong is a lot more press resistant, more agile and more of a deep playmaker naturally than Pogba is. For all of Pogba's issues defensively not being suited to a deep midfield role, I also just don't think he was suited to it on the ball. Wasn't natural to him. Its natural to De Jong. But he'd be the #8 for sure.
And given Barca have Pedri and Gavi as the reason why they would allow De Jong to leave, Pogba really wouldn't make sense.
Henderson and Fabinho are both defensive midfielders though. Not playmakers. Defensive midfielders. Guys like Tchouameni, Kamara, Rice, etc. Fred is not a defensive mid, De Jong is not a defensive mid, Thiago is not a defensive mid. Bruno, FdJ in a midfield pairing would need a defensive midfielder behind them.
That's why I never talked about a destroyer but a shielder, it's more about covering the right space to offer a passing outlet for defenders and a deeper vertical option in midfield if the more advanced midfielders are being marked. The shielder can be a playmaker like Busquets as long as he got the instinct to offer the first passing option for defenders and has the right knack to intercept longer passes and thus help recycle possession.
Mentioning Liverpool as an example, you have actually in most cases exactly the setup I'm talking about. Fabinho is the shielder, Thiago the controller and then you have a more aggressive and attacking midfielder, like Keita for example. If they employ Henderson they simply go for a more conservative setup with two controllers in midfield, they largely get away with it because they have another creative midfielder in the form of their fullback TAA.
That being said there is a trend to all three midfielders being way more similar in playing style and not really specialists anymore, but like I said even the Barca midfield had indeed 3 great playmakers, who were all technically gifted, very smart players, they just differed in their mindset on how to go about playing a midfield role.
The three players you mention all have the instinct to rush for the ball, to press high up the pitch, de Jong is probably the only one who actually has the positional sense to cover space that a dangerous pass could come into. But during his time at Barca I think it became pretty clear that he is not comfortable playing the Busquets role in a midfield, he struggled a lot when he was supposed to do that and there were quite a few people on here describing in detail why he isn't that deep lying playmaker a lot of people seem to think he is based on his Ajax days when he played a lot deeper.
I also don't agree with people on here who act like Rice is a pure destroyer. Is he prime Busquets, certainly not but he is a quality number 6 that looks like he would equally do well playing as a number 8 and if we combine such a player, not even saying it has to be Rice, with two more creative and equally hardworking midfielders I think we would have an amazing midfield.
Does De Jong lack in work ethic?
One of the hardest working guys on the field for Barca. Has run has ass off the previous 3 years. Gavi is nowhere near good enough.
Interesting. He seems to be excellent on the ball and has the the ball work rate to boot. I'm not sure he'd want to come to United. Hopefully ETH can swing it in our favour. We've lacked a proper playmaker for ages.
Midfield is the area of this squad which has been neglected and lacking investment for years. De Jong would improve it dramatically, and the incoming manager has already worked with him.
By all means we can make 'smarter' signings around that. I can't claim to have watched him but that Kamara from Marseille is a competent DM from what I've read and available on a free in the summer. If we ended up with those two in midfield I'd be happy with that.
We can't turn our noses up at quality players, especially when they are midfielders who know how to use the ball. The prospect of another season with McTominay starting regularly terrifies me.
Would be a dream signing.
barca would never let him go unless he forced his way out
barca would never let him go unless he forced his way out
-----Kamara---De Jong
--------------Bruno
--------------Bruno
This is really the only chance that we get Frenkie De Jong and we should take it.
Barcelona needs the cash, and De Jong is under-valued by coach and fans as his favorite and best position has been occupied by Busquets. Besides, we've VDB and ETH to allow him play in a familiar role and setup.
Things may change next year and I bet once he replace Busquets at No.6 instead of playing along with him and constantly have to cover ground for him, De Jong will shine and become not-for-sale till his retirement.
Barcelona needs the cash, and De Jong is under-valued by coach and fans as his favorite and best position has been occupied by Busquets. Besides, we've VDB and ETH to allow him play in a familiar role and setup.
Things may change next year and I bet once he replace Busquets at No.6 instead of playing along with him and constantly have to cover ground for him, De Jong will shine and become not-for-sale till his retirement.
I agree, it is possible this summer may present a small window of opportunity. Been saying for a couple of years that we should try and bully Barcelona for Frenkie when they were skint, but they could be about to turn the corner financially too.
If he can sort out his fitness he'd be a starter there for sure. He's better than Gavi and De Jong as an 8.
It's more-so Busquets than Gavi and Pedri. De Jong is a 6 and Xavi still considers Busquets a key player, so that's why he is expendable. Gavi and Pedri still aren't considered key players, which is why one or the other starts with Busquets and De Jong, and why they've bought another 8 in Kessie (who isn't better than Pogba).
Why do they insist with old man Busquets anyway? I mean I guess he and xavi were buddies but koeman did it as well.
Because hes good? Modric is a lot older
He struggles in tight spaces and he struggles playing quickly, always has.
Barca keep talking about the need to keep DeJong and the importance of him while denying they would sell...the more they talk about it the better chances we have of making a deal for him
His legs are gone , it's been evident since their cl exit in 2018.
I would have moved him off a long time ago if I were in charge.
I'm not sure we have watched the same Frenkie. He's ok in the pressing but when the opposing team counter attack us he is very often seen hesitant when he should inmediately run back to defend.
De Jong isn't the kind of 6 Busquets is though. De Jong for Barca provides nothing defensively. Even if he's positioned as the deepest midfielder, it'd be for on the ball purposes and not the defensive shield like Busquets is. Kessie is an 8 sure but his role would be that of the defensive midfielder more than being a playmaker. Frenkie as a midfielder has so far been like Modrić on some ways, but much worse defensively. He needs a DM behind him/around him.
FDJ's best role is the no 6 while Fred's best role is the no 8. No, he wouldn't be Fred replacement.
I know they are completely different players but this would be a dream midfield signing like Verratti, however cannot see any way Barca sell him in a million years
In an unorganised team such as ours, yep. In cohesive teams such as France and Juventus, not so much. In a team like Barcelona who have a clear philosophy and look to play with a clear and defined style, I think Pogba would showcase his non-United form. Granted, that's only if he isn't physically done, which he could very well be from what we've seen.
I agree with that, which is why, if we did hypothetically sign him, I'm not sure who'd be the best partner for him assuming ten Hag sticks with his 4-2-3-1.
In possession, he drops into a cb role allowing the cbs to split into the fb positions and, say we had a pure sitting dm, I think he'd just be in the way in the build-up phase. Like a Rice won't drift forwards, so you'd have him and Frenkie occupying the same position. However, if you paired him with a box box ball winner like Fred, we'd be more fluid in possession as he can drift forwards, but, despite how much ground someone like a Fred would cover, I think we'd be too lightweight defensively. I'd drift more towards a more defensively sound partner for sure, but I personally don't know who'd compliment him best.
I actually find them to be very similar. It's why them two (along with Arthur) are my favourite midfielders to watch.
No he has struggled with it for France and Juve, it's just part of his limitations.
On what you are saying about De Jong it sounds like he plays similar to Pirlo when Pirlo played deep. He had 2 b2b midfielders with him to create a good balance.
True.
I am worried about giving more players 400k plus a week while we struggle for top 4. It creates a vicious circle mentality in the squad. They become almost embarrassed they are so well paid but not able to reach their potential/playing in a below average team and it adversely affects the team morale “feck it I’m just here for the money” I love FDJ but I think we need to find someone else on half the wages that can do 80% of what he can and with the ability and desire to improve even further. This is where we are as a club. Stop making money the sole reason to come here. Build something based more on squad harmony, total effort and commitment and then add these special players if and when we still need them. It’s like we are just adding more layers of problems with every expensive mistake we make when we would be better served to simplify. Strip it back to basics.
You don’t need to worry about that. If De Jong were available, every club with a few quid would be instantly interested. If he still chose to come here, it would be a choice based on football.
Also, these figures are likely sensationalised anyway. FDJ‘s salary is paid partly by Nike I believe, and also - the figures are headline seeking. Pogba’s salary that has been such a topic of discussion on here for years is almost 50% made up of bonuses. The CL qualification bonus, for example, wouldn’t be paid this year. De Jong pocketing 400k per week would almost certainly be conditional.
Their exact position on the pitch is different from the role they serve within the team. If Fred is #8, then you need a very different #6 than FdJ. If De Jong is #6, you need a very different #8 than Fred. Basically if you have De Jong, you want a Kante type to be your #8. If Fred is your #8, we want a Tchouameni type to be our #6. Ten Hag used Lasse Schone next to him in 2018/19 who is a much more reserved player. Van de Beek was the 10 that year too. De Jong if anything had the most freedom despite being in the deeper role.
Just because one player plays as a deeper midfielder or in the #6 position in a specific team and another plays as an 8, doesn't mean they would operate the same roles would they be in the same team. Fred isn't anywhere near secure enough defensively or positionally to work next to Frenkie de Jong. We'd be incredibly easy to play through. It's the same reason why Ruben Neves next to Fred would be a not good idea. They aren't defensive mids.
One huge signing could also come in and make us tick. Our midfield is dreadfully lacking in craft from deep (and in numbers in general) This dude is the best young DLP in the world. I’ve just been burned too many times though. I’m seriously beginning to think the only way forward is to take the risks needed to make your own stars even if it means we are in transition for a few more years. We are in constant transition anyway while spending the most money. Surely we gotta start trying to find real value again at some point.
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