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German Football 20/21
- Thread starter do.ob
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I wonder how BVB fans feel today about "body checks". 
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So I guess Rangnick is open to the job?
Going by what the press reports it seems like DFB wants Flick as their first choice, but won't pursue him actively. Hoping/waiting that internal differences with Salihamidzic might make him push for a move himself.
As long as Rangnick doesn't turn elsewhere it sounds like quite a comfortable situation.
Rumours picking up about Löw bringing back Müller and Hummels for the EC.
Flick is my first choice as well but given that all the best German managers are firmly in their clubs (Klopp, Flick, Nagelsmann, Rose, Tuchel), and it would be difficult to convince them away, Rangnick is not a bad short term choice at all. He's an innovator of the current German tactics that are synonymous with the current crop and therefore should work well with the team.Tweet
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So I guess Rangnick is open to the job?
Going by what the press reports it seems like DFB wants Flick as their first choice, but won't pursue him actively. Hoping/waiting that internal differences with Salihamidzic might make him push for a move himself.
As long as Rangnick doesn't turn elsewhere it sounds like quite a comfortable situation.
How would we set up with Muller, Hummels/Boateng?
Neuer
Sule Hummels Rudiger
Klostermann Halstenberg
Goretzka Kroos Kimmich
Gnabry Werner
The issue with the 4-2-3-1 is that it doesn't suit Werner. Havertz, Gundogan, Sane will miss out in this formation though. Rudiger has been good for Chelsea in a similar formation, better than Ginter lately.
Rangnick would be awesome. Maybe even better than Flick because he wouldn't accept the bullshit the DFB comes up with at times. His appointment would mean a different culture.
I'd still prefer Flick though, simply because he wouldn't be coaching Bayern anymore
But it all depends how the new coach thinks about the veterans. Müller, Hummels and Boateng might make the team because of their leadership qualities. Reus, too, considering he's hit some form again. And Kroos is still absolute quality. Can imagine that he's still the best midfielder in training sessions for the DFB since form often differs for club and country. And aside from Gündogan in his prime, Kroos is probably still our most gifted CM.
I'd still prefer Flick though, simply because he wouldn't be coaching Bayern anymore
I know he had some good performances recently but I really don't see Goretzka in the starting eleven, like at all. Especially not ahead of players like Gündogan and Havertz. I think having Havertz as a false 9 would make sense if you want to play Werner. I also don't think three at the back makes sense given that our CBs are rather weak currently. I'd favor a 4-3-3 I think.
But it all depends how the new coach thinks about the veterans. Müller, Hummels and Boateng might make the team because of their leadership qualities. Reus, too, considering he's hit some form again. And Kroos is still absolute quality. Can imagine that he's still the best midfielder in training sessions for the DFB since form often differs for club and country. And aside from Gündogan in his prime, Kroos is probably still our most gifted CM.
Man you underrate Goretzka too muchRangnick would be awesome. Maybe even better than Flick because he wouldn't accept the bullshit the DFB comes up with at times. His appointment would mean a different culture.
I'd still prefer Flick though, simply because he wouldn't be coaching Bayern anymore
I know he had some good performances recently but I really don't see Goretzka in the starting eleven, like at all. Especially not ahead of players like Gündogan and Havertz. I think having Havertz as a false 9 would make sense if you want to play Werner. I also don't think three at the back makes sense given that our CBs are rather weak currently. I'd favor a 4-3-3 I think.
But it all depends how the new coach thinks about the veterans. Müller, Hummels and Boateng might make the team because of their leadership qualities. Reus, too, considering he's hit some form again. And Kroos is still absolute quality. Can imagine that he's still the best midfielder in training sessions for the DFB since form often differs for club and country. And aside from Gündogan in his prime, Kroos is probably still our most gifted CM.
Some good performances? He was great the second half of last season and has carried that form into this season as well.The issue with Gundogan for me is that he, Kroos and Kimmich are too similar in possession. All 3 are slower in taking the ball forward, and slow overall, and not as offensively active as Goretzka. Goretzka might not be technically as strong as the others, but hes energy going forward and back is key to both Bayern and Germany. Germany's biggest weakness in midfield since 2016-17 has been their lack of energy in midfield and being easily overrun by counter attacking opponents.
Goretzka is to Germany what Khedira was. Khedira was criminally underrated by everyone because he didn't look pretty on the ball, but his tactical awareness and energy off the ball were key to playing alongside Schweinsteiger and Kroos/Ozil. Goretzka will be the same, covering ground for the other two midfielders and adding another offensive threat.
Just realized I didn't add Muller in my formation
He would probably play for Gnabry or Werner.It feels really wrong to bench Gündogan, while you play Klostermann as RWB. LWB doesn't look stellar either. So I'd say something like a back three with Hummels at the center and (depending on form) 2 out of Süle/Rüdiger/Klostermann/Can by his side. Kroos has done great things in the past, but with his lack of athleticism and the fact that the team doesn't dominate as much as it used to I think he's a liability now.
So something like:
Neuer - Kimmich, Süle, Hummels, Rüdiger, Gosens - Goretzka, Dahoud, Gündogan - Gnabry, Müller, Sane
Now I know people are going to get triggered by Dahoud. But how many more times are we going to put Kroos in midfield just to be like "oh my god I can't believe we're this leaky in midfield, how could this happen??? no one saw this coming!" I think tactically he's more or less Thiago light and exactly what the team needs. Sort of like how Rudy turned out to be the best pick in 2018, despite his nomination being treated like a Löw meme. His form has been consistently good since the beginning of the year, so if he can keep this up he should be a candidate for the first team. Kimmich in midfield would of course be a natural choice, but if your wings are dead it doesn't really matter how much individual quality you have in the center.
So something like:
Neuer - Kimmich, Süle, Hummels, Rüdiger, Gosens - Goretzka, Dahoud, Gündogan - Gnabry, Müller, Sane
Now I know people are going to get triggered by Dahoud. But how many more times are we going to put Kroos in midfield just to be like "oh my god I can't believe we're this leaky in midfield, how could this happen??? no one saw this coming!" I think tactically he's more or less Thiago light and exactly what the team needs. Sort of like how Rudy turned out to be the best pick in 2018, despite his nomination being treated like a Löw meme. His form has been consistently good since the beginning of the year, so if he can keep this up he should be a candidate for the first team. Kimmich in midfield would of course be a natural choice, but if your wings are dead it doesn't really matter how much individual quality you have in the center.
I definitely feel you there, I've been thinking the same for a couple of years now he seems to big a player to be left out; you can't ignore his quality on the ball so you have to build around him. He's finally morphed into Juventus Pirlo who himself was slow and a liability defensively so Italy and Juventus packed high energy midfielders around him to cover that lack of athletisicm. That's why I feel it's deathly important to have Goretzka there because he's the most energetic midfielder, with quality, in Germany and can be suited to playing alongside Kroos. Kimmich isn't a high energy bunny but covers plenty of ground himself, also he's defensively great and we need that with Kroos-Goretzka.
I like Dahoud a lot, loved that he joined Dortmund because it seemed like destiny that he'd take over from Gundogan, but he hasn't shown enough quality for long enough to be starting, let alone being selected.
I like Halstenberg at LWB and he's been left out with Angelino being great offensively, though he's been a good enough cover at LCB. Klostermann as well I think is underrated there, he isn't quality going forward but has buckets to speed and isn't bad defensively. I would certainly want him to play there and allow Kimmich to be at his best at DM.
A 533, eh? Dahoud and Gündogan are too similar for my taste, and Müller doesn't work as a 9.
Neuer
Süle Rüdiger Hummels Gosens
Kimmich Goretzka
Müller or Gündogan
Sane Werner Gnabry
Yeah, Werner sucks as a 9, too, but whatcha gonna do...
I'd rather see Kimmich and Goretzka playing together in the middle, and play our newly discovered RB hope that is Süle, who's at least better than Klostermann
feck a three man defense, it's a waste of a player
I don't think Kroos, Kimmich and Gündogan are similar in possession. Gündogan originally was a Thiago/Xavi type of player who distributes the ball relatively high up the pitch because he was practically unpressable. He became similar to Kroos after the back injury since he had lost his agility but now he's not only back to his best but also added very dangerous runs into the box to his repertoire. He's arguably even more of a goal threat than Goretzka now and is incredibly hard to possess on top of that. Kroos is also incredibly hard to dispossess but not really due to his agility but his great positing, anticipation, vision and flawless technique. Defensively he's a bit like Busquets, trying to cover space and cut off passing lanes. Kimmich again is more direct and physical. He intuitively attempts more passes to create goal scoring opportunities and is more physical.Man you underrate Goretzka too much
The issue with Gundogan for me is that he, Kroos and Kimmich are too similar in possession. All 3 are slower in taking the ball forward, and slow overall, and not as offensively active as Goretzka. Goretzka might not be technically as strong as the others, but hes energy going forward and back is key to both Bayern and Germany. Germany's biggest weakness in midfield since 2016-17 has been their lack of energy in midfield and being easily overrun by counter attacking opponents.
Goretzka is to Germany what Khedira was. Khedira was criminally underrated by everyone because he didn't look pretty on the ball, but his tactical awareness and energy off the ball were key to playing alongside Schweinsteiger and Kroos/Ozil. Goretzka will be the same, covering ground for the other two midfielders and adding another offensive threat.
Just realized I didn't add Muller in my formation
And I disagree that Germany lacked energy in midfield. You read that everywhere after the last tournament. The past three years were essentially wasted because Löw believed those stories as well and tried to please the public by adapting the style. But the issue was never the style, it was that the team executed the system poorly. Players like Goretzka won't change that, they will contribute to it.
You couldn't just read that, is was plain obvious to anyone with a working set of eyeballs. Most recent prime example being that superb game against Spain.
A game in which Goretzka started, Spain had 70% possession and 93% passing accuracy to Germany's 84%. And with a midfield consisting of Rodri, Koke and Canales coached by a possession oriented coach.
If anything that game proved my point. Spain played the way Germany wanted to play in Russia - a style which was deemed outdated by the German public and media landscape.
Spain stayed true to their philosophy, Germany didn't.
Dahoud is similar to Gündogan in the sense that he has good technique and a dynamic playstyle, but he's a more defensive player.
Like if someone tells me that with Dahouds shaky past odds are he's going to fall off again soon or that they are afraid of him making a costly mistake, then fair enough. But I think tactically he fulfills the role the die Mannschaft needs. And I think a midfield trio of him, Goretzka and Gündogan would be quite balanced with Dahoud providing cover while the other two are allowed to venture further forward, one with directness one with more flair.
Müller might not be his best as a no9, but neither is Werner. I think a fluid Sane, Gnabry and Müller (or Werner for one of them, if he's in great shape), with no set no9, but a lot of freedom to overload the half spaces, while width is provided by wingbacks, could work. Either that or some fancy attempt with Havertz upfront. But going with Werner again sounds like the same folly as Kroos in midfield to me.
Putting Müller up front negates his best abilities. Literally anyone out of Werner, Gnabry, Sané, Havertz, or even Gündogan would be a better choice than Müller, simply for the fact that they'd be able to play with Müller behind them and creating chances for them.
Isn't that a bit misleading though? After all Kroos and Gundogan also played, while I think Goretzka generally plays a much more attacking role in the national team whenever I've seen him play there, as opposed to his allround midfield / box to box role he has at Bayern? I don't think that attacking role gets the best out of him, but judging by Löw's midfield selection he did try to go for a good a balance of possession and directness up front but it failed spectacularly. If I remember correctly Spain pressed them off the park, and having Kroos and Gundogan in midfield didn't help one bit, despite their usual assuredness on the ball.
Aah, and following your logic, we should have added another low mobility, non pressing player instead of Goretzka to have more of the ball...right
Currently, Kroos has no business being in the first 11.
Yes. Well, at least it would've been a step towards the right direction. Just dropping a different type of player into the team obviously won't change the way the squad plays as a unit.
Given Germany's lack of a central striker I feel like Löw has to find a fancy solution, e.g. a nominal front three, but Müller dropping deeper during build up, one of the nominal wide players moving high, to threaten balls behind the defense and then some rotations as the ball progresses up the pitch and to be fair to Löw he did seem to try stuff like that after the WC.
I don't think it was only a question of the players in the line up but also how the team was set up in general. To me it was the climax of a failed experiment. After Spain's success with possession football between 2008 to 2012, Löw tried to copy their philosophy to varying success. He sticked to that until the group stage exit in Russia. At that time, France won the WC with very direct football while Spain and Germany as the former epitomes of possession football, at least among national teams, went out early. Guardiola's time at Bayern also wasn't too long ago and since he never won the UCL for them, people already questioned his philosophy back then. Simultaneously, Robert Kovac had just won the German cup with a very vertical approach, too, and was given the Bayern job. He publicly claimed stuff like "possession football is dead". Many people in Germany, especially in the media, were of the same opinion and Löw ultimately complied, combining the rejuvenation of the team with a change of the system. It didn't really work out and ironically Kovac also turned Bayern into the worst they had been in over a decade before Bayern eventually went back to a possession and high pressing system under Flick with great success. Löw simply lost his head and wanted to please the public too much after the group stage exit.
Maybe this wouldn't have turned out so badly if he didn't throw out Hummels, Boateng and Müller since those three probably would've vetoed Löw when he wanted to change everything that was successful not too long ago.
Anyway, I think the notion that Germany lacked energy against Spain is completely wrong. This approach stems from the same school of thought that suggested the possession system is to blame for the early exit in Russia. Ironically, Spain itself played a possession oriented style against us. Personally, I believe it has to do because many people in Germany, just like in England, haven't really warmed up to the tiki taka stuff and prefer fast paced and more entertaining football in general, but that's just me.
We do miss a prolific center forward. The compensate for that, at least partially, Goretzka got deployed as a "No10", as his aerial play and finishing are superb. That, of course, left us with a legless Kroos/Gündogan DM.
But Goretzka is nobody who brings defensive stability like a Casemiro or Fabinho type of midfielder. He's not a number 6 but a box to box midfielder. Kroos and Gündogan would need such a defensive minded player behind them or somebody who's great at anticipating passes and cutting lanes, such as Rodri or Kovacic. Bit sad that Weigl didn't develop as promised initially under Tuchel. Maybe the solution is to play Kimmich as the deepest midfielder. Gündogan and Kroos both played that role occasionally, too.
I mean, generally Goretzka has all the qualities to be a great number 6 but the question is if he can neatlessly adapt his playing style. Because in a three man midfield with Gündogan and Kroos/Kimmich in front of him, he'd need to stay back and cover the other two instead of overloading the box.
I think you're confusing cause and effect. Löw didn't abandon a more possession heavy approach, because the media said so, he did so and the media said so, because he tried and failed. And not just at the 2018 WC, but also in all those games leading up to it, where people mistook genuine problems for complacency. Because there is no Klose upfront anymore, there is no Schweinsteiger in midfield anymore, there is no Fipsi at the back anymore, there is no Özil anymore and Boateng losing his pace with age and injuries was also a huge loss that was never compensated.
Die Mannschaft doesn't have a striker to play proper possession football, it doesn't have a midfield anchor to play possession football (Dahoud aside, heh) and it doesn't have the defenders anymore to cope with the high individual responsibility that a possession heavy approach brings.
It's time to play like most German coaches do anyway now. Not because the media said so, but because it suits the personnel and the coaching options best. Especially if it turns out to be Rangnick.
Tuchel's apparent plans with Havertz, backed up by that performance against Everton, may hint towards a future option at the #9 spot.
(As I understand, he first started to play false 9 under Bosz.)
(As I understand, he first started to play false 9 under Bosz.)
If I'm not mistaken you suggested yourself that he could play with a false 9 to accomodate the absence of a quality number 9 and Werner's habit of cutting in from the wings. This is applicable to a possession oriented system as well. Almost have the team is playing in such systems anyway (Sané, Gnabry, Müller, Kimmich, Goretzka, Boateng, Süle, Gündogan, Neuer, Ter Stegen, Tah, Wirtz) while others excelled in them in the past or will play in them in the future (Werner, Havertz, Brandt, Dahoud, Hummels).
A line up could look like this:
----Werner/Gnabry-----------Havertz----------------------------Sané---- Gnabry, Reus, Müller, ...
-------------------------Gündogan-------------------------------------------------- Brandt, Goretzka, Dahoud, Wirtz ...
---------------------------------------------------Kroos-------------------------------
--------------------------------------Kimmich---------------------------------------
--Halstenberg-----Hummels------Boateng-------Klostermann-- Tah, Baku, Ginter, ...
Yes, the defense is a weakness but that would be the case in every line up and system. It's not like the typical pressing and transition systems aren't reliant on quick and strong CBs and FBs.
I can tell you what would happen. Even if the possession game is smooth it forces the team to push high up the pitch. Die Mannschaft loses the ball, because Sane does something risky, or because Werner, Halstenberg or Klostermann aren't silky footballers, then there is a "pocket" of space in front of the defense, because Turbotoni isn't quick enough with the pressing and 5 seconds later people on the caf write "Lol Hummels/Boateng is so slow, I understand football". Even at the team's peak there were games like against Algeria and that was while they were defending with a bunch of greats at their peak.
A good possession team needs organization on a level that I don't trust Löw to provide, much less with the training schedule of a NT and it needs players who relentlessly close gaps: there is a reason why even with all their dominance Bayern are so high up the sprint table. In terms of athleticism you can get away with one of Hummels/Boateng at the back, but not both and Kroos on top.
What's the point of building your team around Kroos, when central midfield is like the one area where your talent pool truly is elite? It makes sense to accommodate Hummels at the back, but only, because the alternative are worse. If there were a young Hummels/Boateng waiting to get their spot I'd kiss those old timers good bye as well.
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I think you're a bit dramatic right now. Sure, these things could be issues but they're not the insurmountable obstacles you make them out to be. There have been teams who also severely lacked pace and still maintained a possession oriented system. Barca itself played with Busquets, Puyol and Piqué during their prime. Xavi wasn't really fast either. And if the lack of pace really proves to be that much of an issue, you could also play either Süle or Klostermann as a CB besides Hummels or Boateng since they're among the fastest CBs in the world right now. And you could also swap Kroos for a faster player, like Dahoud, who's got an excellent defensive work rate, is great on the ball and has the pace Kroos lacks. You could even play Havertz there or Brandt who both excelled on the eight in Bosz' possession system.
So we're speaking about rather small adjustments here. I'd argue that playing a system that doesn't even suit your best players is more damaging than the above. As I said, all German internationals playing for Bayern, City, Chelsea, PSG, Barca or Madrid are already used to possession systems or will be in the near future. And since at least Leverkusen and Dortmund, partly even Leipzig, dominate possession, many second tier players are also comfortable with it.
Moreover, Goretzka is our only real box to box midfielder. Players like Kroos, Gündogan or Brandt will have their weaknesses exposed in a pressing and quick transition system. Who would you even play, then? You could probably go with the Bayern line up of Müller as a 10, Goretzka and Kimmich. But it doesn't really make sense to play the midfield of Bayern if you don't want to play the way Bayern does, right?
Naturally I phrased my statement slightly hyperbolic, but I genuinely believe that these would be the gaping holes in the approach. Especially with Kroos: you have a midfielder who neither plays the holding role, nor has the legs to chase after balls then gaps are bound to open up and with a back line that's especially susceptible to balls behind them it's a recipe for disaster.
Sure you can put one of the quick players at CB, but then you're paying for that with ball playing ability, after already having two full backs who aren't exactly artists.
And with all due respect, the Barca comparison has got to be a joke. Neither is Löw capable of coaching on Pep's level, nor are the German players capable of playing like peak Barca. I could see some Favre-like very defensive/passive approach work - maybe.
And it's not like people are calling for hoofball, but at the moment (or really, in general) it's sensible to require every player to be capable of doing his job in the pressing department, so you have a cohesive foundation. There are plenty of players who can do that while still delivering on the ball, so you still have plenty of options for constructive football. I posted a sample lineup above. It's basically how Leipzig and Nagelsmann approach such a question and on the other hand losing sight of these core principles is how Dortmund got into their current mess.
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They don't need to play like Barca. But the approach you suggest doesn't play to the strengthes of 90% of the squad. Spain doesn't possess the quality either anymore and they still schooled us 6:0 playing a possession based style.
Also, Kroos was never the fastest. If he was such a liability in a possession based system he wouldn't have been part of a midfield axis that won three consecutive CLs. I mean, if Kroos could't play in a possession based system anymore he could as well end his career since he sure as hell is no player for the pressing ball many German lower class teams play. Yet he still plays for one of the best teams in the world at a more than decent level.
I mean, what system should a team without fast players even play in your opinion if not possession style? I mean, we could try catenaccio but we have no players for that either. You make it sound as if midfielders without pace have no place in the modern game anymore.
What are Spain's recentish results?
2014 group stage exit
2016 r/o 16
2018 r/o 16
NL18 2nd behind England
NL20 even there it's "just" 2 points ahead of Löw's mess, because of that Fergie Time equalizer
That doesn't exactly make me feel like "wow, let's be like them".
Real, for starters, has Casemiro cleaning up in midfield and two CBs (more or less) on top of their game. Germany, on the other hand, has a defense that needs all the help it can get, rather than being able to cover for players further up the field. There's a reason why Pep keeps spending €100m+ on defensive players every year.
There is space between fully committed possession football and purely destructive midfield battles, teams aren't just one or the other in binary fashion. Löw, or whoever else coaches, has to find that middle ground. An approach that keeps the defense protected, but doesn't forget a baseline of positional principles.
Well, I don't want to suggest we should be like Spain but you have to admit that there's a certain irony that Spain of all nations beat Germany 6:0 as a sad low point to the system change experiment
In general, I think we aren't that far apart. I don't want us to play like Spain or a Pep team. Well, I'd like us to but I understand that this might not be possible with the players available. I'd also wish for something in between since the style we tried recently for me is simply a very, very bad fit for our best players.
Well, @do.ob works for the DFB so he might have copy+pasted your post to put in one of their statements.
It's the official name. What kind of animal wouldn't use it?
Do you also use "Signal Iduna Park" when talking about the Westfalenstadion with your fellow fans?
Always. Especially when playing die Roten Bullen of Rasenballsport Leipzig or Die Pillendreher aus der Farbenstadt.
It is sort of weird to always say Die Mannschaft @do.ob to be honest. That'l be like United fans always saying Red Devils.