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Just Hertha things. Wolfsburg zeroing on €50m net spent, even without him.
German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke
- Thread starter do.ob
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Just Hertha things. Wolfsburg zeroing on €50m net spent, even without him.
Will be interesting to see if Lukebakio gets back to what he used to be in a new environment. He doesn't really sound like a good fit at Wolfsburg and I'm still not convinced he's a winger, but that seems to be what Wolfsburg wants.
As for Hertha, it's really mind-blowing. They had 5 main offensive threats last season (Cordoba, Cunha, Radonjic, Lukebakio, Piatek). 4 of them are now gone and Piatek has a broken foot. Bobic really needs to have some unexpected last-minute transfers lined up cause signing unproven Dutch or French talents isn't going to be enough.
Fully agree. The fascination with the Bundesliga is mainly that you can watch how your club develops young talents and then hope they do well elsewhere, preferably outside the league. It's a pointless ever repeating rebuilding cycle. As it seems, even Bayern fall behind the financial prowess of the international competition. And they still have the remaining league in a financial stranglehold.
The league developed very positively from around 2008 onward. Bayern switched from a domestic to a global strategy, the German academies suddenly produced talent left, right and center, the coaching scene became one of the best in the world and with Dortmund, there was finally a real competitor on the horizon. But I feel we're falling back into old patterns. Bayern is poaching in the league again primarily, the other leagues have coached up in terms of coaching - partly by luring German top coaches with big budgets and salaries - while the academies don't produce as much talent as they used to do. Dortmund has done well considering the circumstances but Bayern still seems uncatchable for them for at least another decade.
To me, the perspective looks really, really dull. IMO, people really need to ask themselves if they are okay with becoming a true second tier league. They say they prefer that to ditching 50 + 1 but at least many are in some sort of denial I think. The gap is getting bigger and bigger and it's definitely possible that the league "detoriates" until it is taken as seriously internationally as the Dutch one. And the weaker the league becomes, the bigger the chances that the ESL will be seen through.
Actually, this development should be rather worrying for Bayern as well but as usually, they don't seem to be too concerned with the remaining clubs in their league.
Ah here we are again, I'm still waiting for examples of clubs where investors pushed "regular" clubs to a level that can compete with Bayern.
Well... 300m € investment makes you top of the table... if you turn it upside down
I never saw him as a winger either. I always thought he was a counter attacking striker. But I could see him fit in at Wolfsburg: Weghorst (or maybe he will be sold after all, making space up front?!) is not necessarily a selfish striker and with Baku they have a natural wing back in the squad, so maybe they can find sort of a RW/ST hybrid role where Lukebakio shines, a bit like Werner at Leipzig.
As for Hertha, it's not that mind-blowing. I would worry about losing Cunha, because he was the one gifted footballer in attack, but he didn't really fit Dardai's anti-football philosophy at all and it's hard to turn down a good offer from Atletico, because someone like him can probably reach a really low bottom (and tank his value accordingly) if he's unhappy. Cordoba they had to sell, too, because they had too many strikers (signing so many of them was the real mind-blower in my opinion) and the offer was too good to turn down. Lukebakio has not exactly set the world alight, so it's reasonable to get rid, it's just surprising that it turns out to be a loan.
A lot of these transfers were probably inevitable and it's not like Bobic dismantled a functioning attack (more like the opposite). So if he signs a few players and result is a cohesive unit, then this might actually have been good business as far as squad building is concerned. The more critical question is why it is taking so long to bring the new players in.
Lukebakio also seems to be too sensitive to take a leading role on a struggling team. In a best-case scenario he can quietly focus on regaining his form without having to deal with the kind of media scrutiny you get in the capital.
Sure, all those Hertha sales make sense if you consider them one at a time but the result is that they've given away everyone who was a goal-scoring threat and so far have only added the likes of Belfodil, Jovetic or Richter who all sound like back-ups to me and not like players who will guarantee you a certain amount of goals. As it stands the team has no capable wingers and a couple of injury-riddled strikers. Even if they somehow find some good replacements before Wednesday they'll still have a bunch of guys who'll need time to get used to each other. It's a huge gamble for a club that has yet to score a point.
It's the same everywhere, rich fish eats poor fish. Bayern feeds on the Bundesliga, the EPL clubs feed on everything (how sorry do you feel for all the world-class portuguese, french, brazilian, argentinian etc. fans that can only stand and watch as their players go to England asap?) and on the top of the pyramid City and PSG with their bottomless coffers can cherry pick whatever they want.
Also: Loyalty is a concept fans cling to, but it hasn't really meant anything to professional players for decades, not matter the league.
City wanted the profile of last years number eleven. It cost them £100mil. Liverpool wanted the defensive profile of Saints. They had to make him the worlds most expensive defender - same with United and Leicester a year later.
That’s not the modus operandi in Germany. Players go for Championship numbers, because there’s a bunch of players that only will play for Bayern. In England you have Spurs, United, Liverpool, City and Chelsea fighting for the talents in the league, and you’ll see these club constantly win one over the other - there’s not a pattern of which one club keep beating the others for players. That’s the difference.
No, German clubs simply have less money than English clubs. No sugar daddies, state funds, oligarchs, hedge funds, billionaire families, et al.
Not sure why?
No, you aren't. I gave you examples last time we had this discussion. Anyway, I still don't think that it is really necessary to prove that easier access to money makes you more competitive. But let's not go down that rabbit hole again
What do people think about the Sabitzer signing? Is there a way Müller, Sabitzer, Goretzka and Kimmich are on the pitch together? Is Goretzka's starting spot at risk? Because Kimmich and Müller still seem undroppable. Or is Sabitzer meant as a rotational player?
Regarding Sabitzer: i expect him to be a role player that will get significant minutes. He is better than Tolisso and Cuisance (i hope they manage to sell one of them) and those are the „only“ covers for Goretzka. Roca is more a DM (and injured) while Musiala is more suited as LW or AM.No, you aren't. I gave you examples last time we had this discussion. Anyway, I still don't think that it is really necessary to prove that easier access to money makes you more competitive. But let's not go down that rabbit hole again
What do people think about the Sabitzer signing? Is there a way Müller, Sabitzer, Goretzka and Kimmich are on the pitch together? Is Goretzka's starting spot at risk? Because Kimmich and Müller still seem undroppable. Or is Sabitzer meant as a rotational player?
Cologne in top 7
I only remember you naming United and Juventus, who have been huge clubs basically forever. And you brought this up with regards to Bayern's dominance, so it's not about whether clubs should have some advantage, however small, in theory. It's about making a significant difference. If that really is the case then you should be able to find these examples, since you can literally pick from every single league in the world.No, you aren't. I gave you examples last time we had this discussion. Anyway, I still don't think that it is really necessary to prove that easier access to money makes you more competitive. But let's not go down that rabbit hole again
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Players go for money and prestige, same as everywhere.
If investments make no signifcant difference, how come Leipzig, Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and us are a problem?Cologne in top 7
I only remember you naming United and Juventus, who have been huge clubs basically forever. And you brought this up with regards to Bayern's dominance, so it's not about whether clubs should have some advantage, however small, in theory. It's about making a significant difference. If that really is the case then you should be able to find these examples, since you can literally pick from every single league in the world.
Truth is, the excludence from 50 + 1 has elevated us beyond what we would've been capable of organically.Are they challenging Bayern?If investments make no signifcant difference, how come Leipzig, Wolfsburg, Hoffenheim and us are a problem?
No, but if other clubs would punch similarly high above their weight as them, those clubs would.
Oh right.. that's even better than what I expect from them, so no idea how to think about thatCologne in top 7
Generally I don't trust that goal impact stats very little... It might be a nice way to give a certain value to each player of the squad in hindsight, but it is no indication at all how well they will be playing together etc
So four clubs, who already operate outside of 50+1, but can't challenge Bayern are proof that abolishing 50+1 would lead to clubs challenging Bayern? But you can't point to specific clubs where this is actually happening, despite the entire rest of the world operating outside of 50+1?
Just "something something, no 50+1 = more money". Well how about another theory: it's not cost efficient to push a club that isn't already part of the elite into that territory. People invest their money, because they want a return on their investment, they get that return by pushing their club into the upper regions of their league and then they start to milk them for dividends. Trying to close a gap of multiple hundreds of millions in revenue is not more profitable than just pocketing the money yourself. The only clubs where this doesn't apply are sports washing operations.
Well, it's not an exact science and you have to see the prediction as a range, rather than a clear ranking. For example Cologne are given almost the same probability for finishing 3rd as they are for finishing 14th, so what you can gather from it isn't necessarily that they are supposed to play in Europe next season, but rather that they will probably have a fairly care free season. It can help you challenge your preconceptions about certain teams. E.g. the algorithm really liked Union Berlin the last two seasons, when most people probably expected them to get relegated. Though looking at this particular table I can't really see anyone whose prediction stands out.Oh right.. that's even better than what I expect from them, so no idea how to think about that
Generally I don't trust that goal impact stats very little... It might be a nice way to give a certain value to each player of the squad in hindsight, but it is no indication at all how well they will be playing together etc
Right, they are very straightforward that they are giving a probability distribution for each club, which is the responsible thing to do. And while I don't disagree with a lot of that, I always think this view they have is to simplicistic. A football team is more than the sum of its players, and Goal Impact predictions just don't consider how well a team works together. You could have a totally unbalanced squad with a great GI that completely fails to work as a team.
Like with every stat it depends on how you want to use it. I agree that if you just mesh together player with as high a score as you can afford, then that doesn't necessarily make a good team. But I could see this being a valuable tool in identifying the players who merit a closer scouting. And when we're talking about using it to assess entire teams (which probably isn't the main purpose of the algorithm anyway, as I don't see why professional clients would be interested in that), I assume that a team being dysfunctional will also lower its player's score over time and the longer the members of the team play together, the better GI will be at rating their strength as a unit.
Okay, mate. The Bundesliga is a-okay, nothing wrong. I'll disperse.
And in Germany that is only in Bayern, unfortunately. That's all I'm saying. A powerhouse won't be established next to Bayern in Germany, because there are no clubs in Germany that have Bayern's prestige or budget. And to me, this sucks, because as a neutral there's literally no point in tuning in on the Bundesliga in regards to title excitement.
Even when United was the best in the world, we still missed out on players like Aaron Ramsay to Arsenal, Shearer to Newcastle, Gascoigne to Spurs, Bale too rejected us and picked Spurs back in the day. All this is because prestige and money in England aren't concentrated on one club, but more than a handful. Sure it sucks losing out on a talent to a rival, but in the grand scheme of things, football shouldn't be like playing FIFA on amateur-level.
Bayern getting the manager, CB and MF of their main "rival" of the past 2 years...
I like Bundesliga, after the Premier League and Brasileirao it's probably the one i watch most, but this Bayern dynasty is terrible for competition.
I like Bundesliga, after the Premier League and Brasileirao it's probably the one i watch most, but this Bayern dynasty is terrible for competition.
I think it's strange you'd complain about Bayern and neglect that what you describe is basically how the EPL operates as a league. There's so much more money than in any other league that they can concentrate all talent world wide, safe for the spanish giants, PSG, Juve and, well, Bayern. Bayern wants to stay competitive on a lower budget, so they try to get good players on the cheap. I mean, I bet any other huge Club could've gotten e.g. Goretzka if they had acted sooner. They just didn't.
Bayern also misses out on Bundesliga players constantly, usually being outdone by EPL clubs, but that doesn't fit the narrative.
Exactly, GI is nice to see who is the most important player of a team etc, but it just is not the right tool to rate teams as a whole.
You are right regarding the evolution of GI over time, that's why I said it works great in hindsight.
As a league. You said it yourself. In England it’s the whole league who posses economic muscles. In Germany it’s only Bayern - resulting in the Bundesliga being the most one sided league in the top 10 leagues.
Re. Goretzka - you’re entitled to your opinion, but I disagree, he probably got sweet whispers from his agent a year before his contract expired, re. Interest from Bayern. Same with Neuer, Lewa, Hummels etc. They were world class when Bayern got them - are you telling me they picked Bayern, just because the rest of the world was slow? Nah.
And hey - you make it seem as though I don’t understand Bayern. I do. I too would’ve taken all my rivals profiles and coaches as a fan or a Director of said club. I merely think it’s a shame that there’s no title-excitement in Germany. You find the league okay and healthy - good on you. I just don’t.
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I agree with @Giggs' right foot here. I agree that the financial power of the EPL compared to other leagues isn't fun, but even on that level, they don't have an international stranglehold over football like Bayern has over the German league. What's more, if the EPL lost a lot of its money, the Dutch league (for example) wouldn't get back on its pre-Bosman perch, there are still four other leagues that far outpower it financially (Germany, Spain, Italy, France).
And within a league, while Bayern does the same to the BL as what English top clubs do to the PL - at least the EPL has multiple top clubs (4-6 depending on the period). Germany has had only one for most of the last two decades. And even Dortmund has had a pretty strong hold on second position in that regard for a while now (despite some of their league finishes), ahead of the rest.
So while financial imbalances are unfortunate anywhere, within and between leagues, I would say that they are the worst by far within the Bundesliga.
Whatever dude. I never said that nothing is wrong. There obviously is when one club wins 10 titles in a row.
You are flogging a very very dead horse by repeating what has already been stated a gazillion times on here.
You think we didn’t notice that Bayern is the biggest club and that this status quo won’t change over the next 10 years? You think we didn’t notice that a lot of Bundesliga players or German internationals move to Bayern?
Bayern‘s problem is that they are losing the economic fight against the Premiere League and therefore have to shop in the Bundesliga again.
Btw, Bayerns wage bill is very high (as is their revenue) and you are guaranteed a CL challenge. That is why players move there and not because Bayern whispers into their agent‘s ears. All clubs know all contracts and clauses. Bayern does not possess superior information.
So let me see if I understand you correctly - Bayern have since the early 2000s (probably before, but I don’t remember the 90s deals) been rummaging around and taking the best players from Leverkusen, Stuttgart, Bremen, Dortmund, Schalke, Hoffenheim etc. because they at no point have had as much money as the rest of the European clubs? Despite having a humongous stadium full every week and having qualified for CL every year since the dawn of man? I’m not buying it. Bayern have spent three times more than the average Bundesliga team, the past five years - to me that’s not a problem. Money is in football, and it will only multiply. What I’m simply pointing out is my frustration at deals like the Sabitzer one, where Bayern get so much talent, for next to nothing.
It works wonders for FCB to dismantle the promising German sides before they get going. It secures them the league, consistent CL and the prestige that may lure global superstars their way. I think that’s the reason they do it, and not down to lack of money compared to the other leagues.
And let me stress - the problem doesn’t lie with Bayern. It’s the other clubs and players, that need to work smarter in order for their players not just leaving for next to nothing to Bayern.
The thibg is that Bayern very rarely did that in the last decade. Instead they signed international top talent and became regular CL contenders.
Buying the best opposition players was mostly done while Bayern was nowhere near that international status.
So when they do that again now, it could be seen as a decline of the club, and that is worrying.
By last decade you mean the 2010s? I’d say they found a fair few of their players from their Bundesliga rivals then too. Same with the 00s. Not that they’re not allowed that - that’s how the football circle works. You’d just like to see another team being able to offer some competition both on the pitch and on the transfer market.
What difference does it make to Leipzig if they lose Sabitzer to Bayern, or a PL club? He's a good player and seems to have a great attitude but he's hardly going to turn Bayern into something they aren't already.
There's a reason the only other substantial rumour was linking Sabitzer to Spurs, and not one of the Manchester teams or Chelsea. And it's not exactly a hard choice between Bayern and Spurs.
Bayern hoovering up their "rival" 's captain for half the fee we're asking for Dan James and people defending it.
It's a farce. Bayern run the league like the mafia. My question is, why do all the other teams bend over and take it in these situations? Surely there would be several takers for Sabitzer in the £30-£40m range, so why the feck are they taking buttons from Bayern?
It's a farce. Bayern run the league like the mafia. My question is, why do all the other teams bend over and take it in these situations? Surely there would be several takers for Sabitzer in the £30-£40m range, so why the feck are they taking buttons from Bayern?
Maybe the reason was that he only wanted to play for Bayern? He sells for 1/3 of his market value, and is playing for Bayern’s direct rivals. I’d say the difference is Leipzig loses a profile - weakening them, their rival gains one - strengthening them. In what world wouldn’t you prefer your players to go abroad, and not to your main rival?
There obviously weren´t, otherwise Leipzig would´ve sold him to someone else. Upamecano had a release clause every other club around europe could´ve triggered but no one did. The problem is not Bayern, the problem is that the other clubs can´t compete with the economic status of other top clubs in europe. If Bayern didn´t buy Sabitzer and Upemecano, someone else would´ve done it. PL clubs raid the Bundesliga clubs every summer because of the financial gap and Bayern is the only club that comes close to the english ones in terms of that.Bayern hoovering up their "rival" 's captain for half the fee we're asking for Dan James and people defending it.
It's a farce. Bayern run the league like the mafia. My question is, why do all the other teams bend over and take it in these situations? Surely there would be several takers for Sabitzer in the £30-£40m range, so why the feck are they taking buttons from Bayern?
That is not even remotely what I wrote. I give up. Have a nice evening.