German Football 21/22 | Gladbach sign Farke

[Giggs' right foot]

That is not even remotely what I wrote. I give up. Have a nice evening.

You wrote “Bayern‘s problem is that they are losing the economic fight against the Premiere League and therefore have to shop in the Bundesliga again.”

So where in my question did I read you wrong? In this quote you make this continuous Bayern-snapping-up-their-rivals-profiles-reality sound like it’s the Premier League’s fault. Like Bayern really don’t want to do it, but they have to, because the Premier League is too strong. But they’ve been doing it since the early 2000s? Leverkusen got dismantled. Stuttgart and Bremen won the league - and then lost both their top scores to Bayern. Then Dortmund got dismantled, now Leipzig.

I’m asking out of sincere interest - has Bayern been making these deals for more than two decades - taking often world class players away from their fiercest rivals - because of Premier League?

 

[do.ob]

You wrote “Bayern‘s problem is that they are losing the economic fight against the Premiere League and therefore have to shop in the Bundesliga again.”

So where in my question did I read you wrong? In this quote you make this continuous Bayern-snapping-up-their-rivals-profiles-reality sound like it’s the Premier League’s fault. Like Bayern really don’t want to do it, but they have to, because the Premier League is too strong. But they’ve been doing it since the early 2000s? Leverkusen got dismantled. Stuttgart and Bremen won the league - and then lost both their top scores to Bayern. Then Dortmund got dismantled, now Leipzig.

I’m asking out of sincere interest - has Bayern been making these deals for more than two decades - taking often world class players away from their fiercest rivals - because of Premier League?

I understand that you're very upset that Bayern signed Sabitzer for cheap, while United might not sign a midfielder again. But you're seeing everything through the lens of that anger. The clubs behind Bayern can't pay competitive wages for top class players, therefore they lose them. Sometimes to Bayern. But Upamecano would have left Leipzig, even if Bayern didn't want him, same for Sabitzer, who decided to let his contract run down, same for Lewandowski, who would probably would have joined Madrid if he wasn't set on Bayern. Goretzka was linked with Barca at the time he signed for Bayern, how big are the chances he's staying at Schalke, when he can play alongside Messi? There probably are some cases of players who would have stayed put, if Bayern didn't go after them, but that has to be very far from the majority.
And what the other poster has been telling you is that Bayern have to build and maintain a CL challenging squad at a financial disadvantage. They can't afford to sign players from England, they can't really afford to sign players from other Barca, Real or other elite clubs, so naturally they can't hesitate when a bargain pops up in their front yard.

 

[Blackwidow]

Maybe the reason was that he only wanted to play for Bayern? He sells for 1/3 of his market value, and is playing for Bayern’s direct rivals. I’d say the difference is Leipzig loses a profile - weakening them, their rival gains one - strengthening them. In what world wouldn’t you prefer your players to go abroad, and not to your main rival?

He has a contract that runs out next season. The values on the transfermarket page are values for contracts that are valid for another 3 years. Leipzig cashed the money and put it into Barcelona's 18-year old talent Ilaix Moriba whose contract runs out next season, too. Tomorrow is the medical checkup..

Moriba has the same agent as Sabitzer...

 

[Cheimoon]

I’m asking out of sincere interest - has Bayern been making these deals for more than two decades - taking often world class players away from their fiercest rivals - because of Premier League?

Actually, as people have pointed out, Bayern did little Bundesliga shopping for a couple of years until recently (apart from promising youth prospects).

So the question might rather be: why are they back at it? And as people have been saying, this might be because the international market for talent on the level they need is getting too expensive, which in turn might partly be driven by the financial muscle of EPL clubs (and PSG, maybe also Barca and Reals Madrid).

None of that changes the dynamics inside the BL of course.

 

[giorno]

Really? They only went back to shopping domestically recently? Where did Neuer, Pavard, Sülinho, Kimmich, Goretzka, Gnabry and Lewandowski come from

To be clear: they just do what everyone tries to do. Sign good players. With a preference for players already settled in the country, again a fairly obvious choice. I don't know, is it their fault nobody else in their league can compete financially?

I ask because we have precedence of that in Italy with the sons of Moggi and Lippi being the biggest agents in the country for years and representing like 50% of all players in serie A, so basically Lucianone decided where half the league's players would play this was the least talked about part of calciopoli, but a pretty damn relevant one if you ask me.....

 

[Piratesoup]

Surely there would be several takers for Sabitzer in the £30-£40m range, so why the feck are they taking buttons from Bayern?

You. Can't. Force. A. Player. To. Sign. A. Contract. With. Another. Team.

 

[roonster09]

I understand that you're very upset that Bayern signed Sabitzer for cheap, while United might not sign a midfielder again.

Yeah ManUtd fans are very upset that Bayern have signed Sabitzer, the crown jewel of Bundesliga and the player who ManUtd were desperate to sign.

 

[Hulksmash]

RB Leipzig lost their captain, manager and star centre-back to Bayern Munich in one transfer window, after finishing 2nd to them in the Bundesliga last season

Bundesliga is finished as a Product. It's too late to get rid of 50+1 and let Owners in, it will only cause damage.

The Fans are already showing signs of being sick of the League, besides Dortmund and Bayern , Teams are struggling to get 30% Fans inside stadiums. TV Figures are also down.

As Bayern Supporter, the best Bet has to be the Super League.

Super League is ugly but we don't have a choice

 

[Hansi Fick]

RB Leipzig lost their captain, manager and star centre-back to Bayern Munich in one transfer window, after finishing 2nd to them in the Bundesliga last season

Bundesliga is finished as a Product. It's too late to get rid of 50+1 and let Owners in, it will only cause damage.

The Fans are already showing signs of being sick of the League, besides Dortmund and Bayern , Teams are struggling to get 30% Fans inside stadiums. TV Figures are also down.

As Bayern Supporter, the best Bet has to be the Super League.

Super League is ugly but we don't have a choice

The situation is shocking. What's worse, last season some stadiums even were completely empty for months and months. If that isn't proof that noone cares..

 

[KM]

To be fair, it's not a good look that a team which finished 2nd last season lost their manager, their best central defender and midfielder to a team which finished champions.
It's kinda hilarious that German fans are trying to deny it for some reason.

 

[Hulksmash]

To be fair, it's not a good look that a team which finished 2nd last season lost their manager, their best central defender and midfielder to a team which finished champions.
It's kinda hilarious that German fans are trying to deny it for some reason.

Bundesliga is finished as a Product. People are starting to show their feelings. Most teams can't get 30% of the stadiums full. 30%!

 

[hasanejaz88]

Players Dortmund have signed from the Bundesliga in the last 5 years, from the top of my head:

GK: Roman Burki (Freiburg), Korbel (Stuttgart), Marvin Hitz (Augsburg)

Defenders: Jeremy Toljan (Hoffenheim), Mats Hummels (Bayern), Abou Diallo (Mainz), Nico Schulz (Hoffenheim), Omer Toprak (Leverkusen)

Midfielders: Mahmoud Dahoud (Gladbach), Julian Brandt (Leverkusen), Sebastian Rode (Bayern), Delaeney (Bremen), Max Phillip (Freiburg), Andre Schurrle (Wolfsburg), Marius Wolf (Frankfurt), Thorgan Hazard (Gladbach), Mario Gotze (Bayern)

Might be forgetting some more. But sure, Bayern are the team weakening the rest of the league

 

[KM]

Bundesliga is finished as a Product. People are starting to show their feelings. Most teams can't get 30% of the stadiums full. 30%!

Won't get this dramatic, maybe it has something do with govt. restrictons.

 

[Hansi Fick]

Won't get this dramatic, maybe it has something do with govt. restrictons.

You think? Where's the proof for that?

 

[2ndTouch]

To be fair, it's not a good look that a team which finished 2nd last season lost their manager, their best central defender and midfielder to a team which finished champions.
It's kinda hilarious that German fans are trying to deny it for some reason.

None of them would have stayed, regardless of Bayern meddling. All 3 had outgrown their club. But it surely serves as nice occasion for folks here to flood this thread with the usual dumps

 

[stefan92]

Really? They only went back to shopping domestically recently? Where did Neuer, Pavard, Sülinho, Kimmich, Goretzka, Gnabry and Lewandowski come from

To be clear: they just do what everyone tries to do. Sign good players. With a preference for players already settled in the country, again a fairly obvious choice. I don't know, is it their fault nobody else in their league can compete financially?

I ask because we have precedence of that in Italy with the sons of Moggi and Lippi being the biggest agents in the country for years and representing like 50% of all players in serie A, so basically Lucianone decided where half the league's players would play this was the least talked about part of calciopoli, but a pretty damn relevant one if you ask me.....

Only Lewandowski came from a team that was able to challenge Bayern for the title, maybe Neuer too, but both transfers are now years in the past.

There is a difference between signing best players from mid table clubs and dismantling the runner up. That is something Bayern have not done in a years, and usually it did not strengthen them much but only weakened the other team.

 

[Sphaero]

Look, we can contextualize this deal all we want, but it can´t be denied that this is simply bad optics for the league as a competition and a product. You can view what Bayern did to Leipzig as normal transfer activity, but others will see a dismantling job and they would not be wrong to think that. Leipzig lost three main assests, their coach and half their teams backbone, in a single window to Bayern. If the runner up of a competition is treated that way by the champion, it simply does not paint a pretty picture in terms of competiveness of that sport. That is what people, especially the ones from the outside and neutrals, will see.

 

[KM]

Look, we can contextualize this deal all we want, but it can´t be denied that this is simply bad optics for the league as a competition and a product. You can view what Bayern did to Leipzig as normal transfer activity, but others will see a dismantling job and they would not be wrong to think that. Leipzig lost three main assests, their coach and half their teams backbone, in a single window to Bayern. If the runner up of a competition is treated that way by the champion, it simply does not paint a pretty picture in terms of competiveness of that sport. That is what people, especially the ones from the outside and neutrals, will see.

Thank you, whatever the context is - It's simply not a good look for the league and especially for a league which has the same champions for almost a decade. Can't understand why Bayern fans are so pissy and defensive about the comments regarding these three deals btw.

Maybe they all wanted to move regardless, but it doesn't change the fact that it severely weakened the runners-up and strengthened the champions.

 

[Zehner]

The thibg is that Bayern very rarely did that in the last decade. Instead they signed international top talent and became regular CL contenders.

Buying the best opposition players was mostly done while Bayern was nowhere near that international status.

So when they do that again now, it could be seen as a decline of the club, and that is worrying.

Look, we can contextualize this deal all we want, but it can´t be denied that this is simply bad optics for the league as a competition and a product. You can view what Bayern did to Leipzig as normal transfer activity, but others will see a dismantling job and they would not be wrong to think that. Leipzig lost three main assests, their coach and half their teams backbone, in a single window to Bayern. If the runner up of a competition is treated that way by the champion, it simply does not paint a pretty picture in terms of competiveness of that sport. That is what people, especially the ones from the outside and neutrals, will see.

On point.

Players Dortmund have signed from the Bundesliga in the last 5 years, from the top of my head:

GK: Roman Burki (Freiburg), Korbel (Stuttgart), Marvin Hitz (Augsburg)

Defenders: Jeremy Toljan (Hoffenheim), Mats Hummels (Bayern), Abou Diallo (Mainz), Nico Schulz (Hoffenheim), Omer Toprak (Leverkusen)

Midfielders: Mahmoud Dahoud (Gladbach), Julian Brandt (Leverkusen), Sebastian Rode (Bayern), Delaeney (Bremen), Max Phillip (Freiburg), Andre Schurrle (Wolfsburg), Marius Wolf (Frankfurt), Thorgan Hazard (Gladbach), Mario Gotze (Bayern)

Might be forgetting some more. But sure, Bayern are the team weakening the rest of the league

While every club signs players from their own league, no club is as extreme as Bayern . Like it or not but the runner up clubs are less focused on their domestic market than Bayern. I also think you'll have a hard time finding another top club with a similarly high proportion of players signed from domestic rivals.

That this is a problem is definitely proven by this thread alone. The Bundesliga should by trying to increase global interest, instead this summer window has rather been repelling international fans.

 

[do.omb]

Thank you, whatever the context is - It's simply not a good look for the league and especially for a league which has the same champions for almost a decade. Can't understand why Bayern fans are so pissy and defensive about the comments regarding these three deals btw.

Maybe they all wanted to move regardless, but it doesn't change the fact that it severely weakened the runners-up and strengthened the champions.

You are all acting as if Leipzig isn't a soulless plastic club that everyone must feel super icky to play for. Certainly a good chance to get yourself noticed. Not a club anyone would want to stay in a minute longer than they needed to. This is not a real Football club like Dortmund, who have stopped selling to Bayern almost 10 years ago.

 

[Trezeguet17]

On point.



While every club signs players from their own league, no club is as extreme as Bayern . Like it or not but the runner up clubs are less focused on their domestic market than Bayern. I also think you'll have a hard time finding another top club with a similarly high proportion of players signed from domestic rivals.

That this is a problem is definitely proven by this thread alone. The Bundesliga should by trying to increase global interest, instead this summer window has rather been repelling international fans.

I think this list from @hasanejaz88 that you yourself quoted shows pretty clearly that this is not the case. Dortmund is on a complete different level if it comes to poaching their rivals best players.

 

[kaiser1]

I think this list from @hasanejaz88 that you yourself quoted shows pretty clearly that this is not the case. Dortmund is on a complete different level if it comes to poaching their rivals best players.

Which teams are Dortmund direct rivals?

 

[Zehner]

I think this list from @hasanejaz88 that you yourself quoted shows pretty clearly that this is not the case. Dortmund is on a complete different level if it comes to poaching their rivals best players.

I mean, you can compare their starting line ups like for like. Bayern has Neuer, Pavard, Süle, Upamecano, Kimmich, Goretzka, Sabitzer and Lewandowski. That's seven or eight starters depending on how you count Sabitzer, nine if you also count Gnabry.

Dortmund's features probably Kobel, Hummels, Dahoud and Reus. That's four starters, three if you discount Hummels who was a Bayern reject, so not really poached. Sure, they sign lots of domestic players as well but also target foreign markets much more regularly with players such as Haaland, Malen, Sancho, Bellingham, Reyna, Meunier, Guerreiro, Akanji, etc.

 

[Kasper]

Don't know why everyone is up in arms. Leipzig are scum and it's nice of Bayern to humiliate this plastic product. It's like when Fernandinho elbowed Kane after he pulled his usual sly undercut move - sometimes you need a bigger villain to put an asshole back into his place.

 

[do.ob]

To be fair, it's not a good look that a team which finished 2nd last season lost their manager, their best central defender and midfielder to a team which finished champions.
It's kinda hilarious that German fans are trying to deny it for some reason.

I don't think anyone is denying that this isn't good or that the extend of Bayern's dominance is bad, but like clockwork every time Bayern sign a bargain from within the league you get the same posts from people, who show up for the first time and substitute facts and knowledge with angry rhetoric or hyperbole and get even more upset, when people don't congratulate them for their keen insights.

Dortmund's features probably Kobel, Hummels, Dahoud and Reus. That's four starters, three if you discount Hummels who was a Bayern reject, so not really poached. Sure, they sign lots of domestic players as well but also target foreign markets much more regularly with players such as Haaland, Malen, Sancho, Bellingham, Reyna, Meunier, Guerreiro, Akanji, etc.

Brandt was supposed to be a starter, too. Hazard is actually starting quite regularly as well, more often than Sabitzer or Sülinho can expect if everyone is fit at Bayern. I think as a Leverkusen fan you should know better: from youth players and coaches to Brandt, Castro and Toprak, three Leverkusen key players that were recently signed, to credible rumors about Kießling, Bellarabi and Tah, another trio of important players at the time, to hijacked deals of Kampl and Sokratis. And there were even reports about Reus sweet talking Havertz.


Gladbach fans aren't too happy either, with Reus, Dahoud and Hazard, as well as the media linking Dortmund to current players such as Neuhaus and Thuram. And of course: worst of all tapping up their coach mid season, completely derailing them to the point where they missed even their most modest targets. And everyone knows Dortmund will have to come after Sommer soon, to complete their set.

Yet people hyperventilate every time Bayern take one player off of them that would otherwise be leaving anyway.

 

[HerrLeinad]

RBL is as much a "competitor" to us as Leicester or Tottenham are to United, City, Chelsea etc.
In the long run RBL will be a club on the level of Leverkusen and Gladbach and it's kinda ridiculous to pretend like everyone has to treat RBL as a big challenger.
To me it seems like people expect Bayern to take the disadvantage of being part of the BL (low TV income and limited international exposure/potential compared to other leagues as well as no foreign investors) while also having to ignore the few advantages (strong national position including the ability to sign players from that domestic market).
It also completetly ignores the fact that we can't sell players for ridiculous money on the international market just because they are "BL proven". Clubs like Chelsea etc. have a far easier time to sell excess players due to the fact that there is so much money thrown around on the international level.
I mean we lost Alaba for free, Thiago and Kroos for very low sums and the highest transfer fees we ever received are Costa (40m € to Juve) and Hummels (~30m € back to Dortmund). We can sell so few players for good prices that the freaking transfer of Hargreaves in 2007 for ~25m € is still our 4th(!) highest sold player ever.
Not that anyone needs to feel sorry for Bayern because of that but maybe keep that in mind. If Bayern isn't even allowed to get good deals within its own domestic market then what is the alternative? Oil money? Are people really so deluded to think that any club in Germany would be any better if Bayern wasn't around? The Bundesliga would simply look like Ligue 1 before PSG got its rich owner, Dortmund would dominate the league in the way Lyon did but still wouldn't be able to reach Bayern's level because they still wouldn't be able to keep the absolute top players and without Bayern people would take the league even less serious.
Though I guess if Bayern doesn't sign Haaland we will see him in a BVB shirt for the next 10 years, right? It's also Bayern's fault that RBL's best striker is now a backup for Lukaku...

 

[goptun]

I don't think anyone is denying that this isn't good or that the extend of Bayern's dominance is bad, but like clockwork every time Bayern sign a bargain from within the league you get the same posts from people, who show up for the first time and substitute facts and knowledge with angry rhetoric or hyperbole and get even more upset, when people don't congratulate them for their keen insights.



Brandt was supposed to be a starter, too. Hazard is actually starting quite regularly as well, more often than Sabitzer or Sülinho can expect if everyone is fit at Bayern. I think as a Leverkusen fan you should know better: from youth players and coaches to Brandt, Castro and Toprak, three Leverkusen key players that were recently signed, to credible rumors about Kießling, Bellarabi and Tah, another trio of important players at the time, to hijacked deals of Kampl and Sokratis. And there were even reports about Reus sweet talking Havertz.


Gladbach fans aren't too happy either, with Reus, Dahoud and Hazard, as well as the media linking Dortmund to current players such as Neuhaus and Thuram. And of course: worst of all tapping up their coach mid season, completely derailing them to the point where they missed even their most modest targets. And everyone knows Dortmund will have to come after Sommer soon, to complete their set.

Yet people hyperventilate every time Bayern take one player off of them that would otherwise be leaving anyway.

It's not just Sabitzer, though. It's Sabizter, Upamecano, and Nagelsmann. I don't think anyone is hyperventilating, but sport is about competition. Bayern have just decimated their closest competitors. People will obviously talk about it.

 

[hasanejaz88]

I mean, you can compare their starting line ups like for like. Bayern has Neuer, Pavard, Süle, Upamecano, Kimmich, Goretzka, Sabitzer and Lewandowski. That's seven or eight starters depending on how you count Sabitzer, nine if you also count Gnabry.

Dortmund's features probably Kobel, Hummels, Dahoud and Reus. That's four starters, three if you discount Hummels who was a Bayern reject, so not really poached. Sure, they sign lots of domestic players as well but also target foreign markets much more regularly with players such as Haaland, Malen, Sancho, Bellingham, Reyna, Meunier, Guerreiro, Akanji, etc.

It's not Bayern's fault Dortmund feck up their signings. Who in the world thought Kimmich would be the world's best midfielder when he was signed from Stuttgart with his only experience being in the 2nd division? Same with Pavard who was relegated the season Bayern signed him. Gnabry was good at Bremen and Hoffenheim but again most thought he wasn't good enough to be Bayern's long term replacement to Ribery.

Brandt just came off an amazing season when Dortmund hot him, he was supposed to take Dortmund to the next level and their was huge hype around him. Hazard similarly had a great season for Gladbach, these, along with Hummels, were the signings to take Dortmund to the title after they very closely missed out the season before.

Bayern just have a much better coaching and managerial set up than Dortmund, that help elevate their players.

 

[Acrobat7]

Bundesliga is finished as a Product. People are starting to show their feelings. Most teams can't get 30% of the stadiums full. 30%!

I assume this is a troll attempt and you just wanna make sure that you can still post in the newbie section?

 

[do.ob]

It's not just Sabitzer, though. It's Sabizter, Upamecano, and Nagelsmann. I don't think anyone is hyperventilating, but sport is about competition. Bayern have just decimated their closest competitors. People will obviously talk about it.

It's the result of the financial imbalance in Bundesliga, which people have been talking about here at great length time and time again. However to say "Bayern have decimated their closest competitors" is only telling half of the truth, because Upamecano was always going to leave Leipzig this summer. The same applies to Sabitzer, who ran his contract down to a year. The only one, who probably would have stayed in Leipzig is Nagelsmann and Bayern was kind of forced to sign him, by Flick forcing his way out.

 

[Zehner]

It's not Bayern's fault Dortmund feck up their signings. Who in the world thought Kimmich would be the world's best midfielder when he was signed from Stuttgart with his only experience being in the 2nd division? Same with Pavard who was relegated the season Bayern signed him. Gnabry was good at Bremen and Hoffenheim but again most thought he wasn't good enough to be Bayern's long term replacement to Ribery.

Brandt just came off an amazing season when Dortmund hot him, he was supposed to take Dortmund to the next level and their was huge hype around him. Hazard similarly had a great season for Gladbach, these, along with Hummels, were the signings to take Dortmund to the title after they very closely missed out the season before.

Bayern just have a much better coaching and managerial set up than Dortmund, that help elevate their players.

I disagree with that. Bayern is operating on a bigger budget, Dortmund is managed with more vision and insight. If you can more or less cherry pick every player in the league, it isn't hard to have a lower failure rate. That aside, Dortmund simply targets more players from outside the league which is part of the reason their line up features many key players who weren't purchased from domestic rivals. It is part of their strategy and also the reason why they're paying such a high amount of agent fees. And if you look at Leipzig, Leverkusen and Gladbach, they're following a similar approach and bring in lots of "foreign" talent, signing less players from league rivals.

Personally, I think Bayern turning their attention from the domestic to the international market in the late 00s was a turning point for the Bundesliga and instrumental for the very successful period after that. What they're doing right now is very short sghted, IMO, and if the league loses attraction they have only themseves to blame.

 

[Olmer]

Well, I assume that Bayern would rather sign someone of Mbappe status, but since the global situation in football is what it is, the best they can do is Sabitzer.
Point is, you can't look at Bundesliga problems in a vacuum - it's the effect of global trends in football MONEYYYYYYYY.
If Bayern could sign star players, they would let Leipzig be. But bullying other Bundesliga clubs (and trying to ressurect careers of players like Coutinho or James Rodriguez) seems to be all they have left going for them.

 

[Zehner]

I don't think anyone is denying that this isn't good or that the extend of Bayern's dominance is bad, but like clockwork every time Bayern sign a bargain from within the league you get the same posts from people, who show up for the first time and substitute facts and knowledge with angry rhetoric or hyperbole and get even more upset, when people don't congratulate them for their keen insights.



Brandt was supposed to be a starter, too. Hazard is actually starting quite regularly as well, more often than Sabitzer or Sülinho can expect if everyone is fit at Bayern. I think as a Leverkusen fan you should know better: from youth players and coaches to Brandt, Castro and Toprak, three Leverkusen key players that were recently signed, to credible rumors about Kießling, Bellarabi and Tah, another trio of important players at the time, to hijacked deals of Kampl and Sokratis. And there were even reports about Reus sweet talking Havertz.


Gladbach fans aren't too happy either, with Reus, Dahoud and Hazard, as well as the media linking Dortmund to current players such as Neuhaus and Thuram. And of course: worst of all tapping up their coach mid season, completely derailing them to the point where they missed even their most modest targets. And everyone knows Dortmund will have to come after Sommer soon, to complete their set.

Yet people hyperventilate every time Bayern take one player off of them that would otherwise be leaving anyway.

Brandt was the only one who was a key player and that only for a few months since Bosz took over. Nobody was sad when Toprak and Castro left because they were decent players but nothing more. And nobody was surprised they failed at Dortmund, not even Brandt. The guy was an idiot for leaving the moment he had his break through, finally being played in his position, for a club that wanted to use him variably. Moreover: Dortmund brings in lots of talent from outside the league while Bayern's marquee signings consist more and more of domestic players. It's no coincidence that Bayern's line up consists almost entirely of players purchased from domestic rivals while Dortmund's doesn't.

I don't understand why people in here are always so ultra protective. This isn't mean as an attack, it's just the way it is and it doesn't look like anything is about to change.

 

[do.ob]

I disagree with that. Bayern is operating on a bigger budget, Dortmund is managed with more vision and insight. If you can more or less cherry pick every player in the league, it isn't hard to have a lower failure rate. That aside, Dortmund simply targets more players from outside the league which is part of the reason their line up features many key players who weren't purchased from domestic rivals. It is part of their strategy and also the reason why they're paying such a high amount of agent fees. And if you look at Leipzig, Leverkusen and Gladbach, they're following a similar approach and bring in lots of talent.

Personally, I think Bayern turning their attention from the domestic to the international market in the late 00s was a turning point for the Bundesliga and instrumental for the very successful period after that. What they're doing right now is very short sghted, IMO, and if the league loses attraction they have only themseves to blame.

For the last 10 years (including Upamecano, excluding Sabitzer):

Bundesliga transfers:
1 - Dortmund - 25 signings - €346m
2 - Bayern - 21 signings - €236m

https://fcbinside.de/2021/02/16/tra...-meisten-die-bayern-liegen-nur-auf-rang-zwei/

Basically every year Dortmund try to sign some experienced Bundesliga players, because their vision is to have a stable core of domestic players and augment it with world class talents. They just don't feature as prominently in their lineups, because too often they don't live up to expectation. If Dortmund had Bayern's pull and financial muscle, they would make the same signings as them.

Brandt was the only one who was a key player and that only for a few months since Bosz took over. Nobody was sad when Toprak and Castro left because they were decent players but nothing more. And nobody was surprised they failed at Dortmund, not even Brandt. The guy was an idiot for leaving the moment he had his break through, finally being played in his position, for a club that wanted to use him variably. Moreover: Dortmund brings in lots of talent from outside the league while Bayern's marquee signings consist more and more of domestic players. It's no coincidence that Bayern's line up consists almost entirely of players purchased from domestic rivals while Dortmund's doesn't.

I don't understand why people in here are always so ultra protective. This isn't mean as an attack, it's just the way it is and it doesn't look like anything is about to change.

You're trying to rewrite history. Toprak was captaining Leverkusen and playing alongside 20 year old Tah, Wendell and Henrichs in defense. And obviously no one was sad when Castro, one of the very few genuine Leverkusen academy graduates who made it, left after playing over 300 games for the club and Dortmund, at the time, was just like: "well who do we make Gündogan's successor, oh right, that nothing player from Leverkusen".

Dortmund's record signings:
#1 Dembele (initial fee was something like €15m)
#2 Hummels
#3 Malen
#4 Schürrle
#5 Diallo
#6 Mkhitaryan
#7 Hazard
#8 Schulz
#9 Amoroso
#10 Brandt

 

[Blackwidow]

It's the result of the financial imbalance in Bundesliga, which people have been talking about here at great length time and time again. However to say "Bayern have decimated their closest competitors" is only telling half of the truth, because Upamecano was always going to leave Leipzig this summer. The same applies to Sabitzer, who ran his contract down to a year. The only one, who probably would have stayed in Leipzig is Nagelsmann and Bayern was kind of forced to sign him, by Flick forcing his way out.

Don't forget that Nagelsmann was always on the way to become Bayern coach - just the timing was maybe a little bit earlier because of Flick leaving. And Leipzig has own coaches that want to get promoted in their coaching pyramid who they might have lost if Nagelsmann has stayed. Now they got a lot of money and their coaching carrousel (all with the club philosophy) provided the next promising coach.

I have the feeling that Leipzig does not really mind the changes. Worst case is always a professional that let's the contract run until the end and where they do not get any transfer sum. So, yes, they had to get rid of Sabitzer. That gave them the money to fish for Moriba who many clubs in Europe wanted (he already played 14 matches for Barcelona in central midfield in the last season with 18) whose transfer sum will boom in the next seasons. Barcelona had to sell now or let him go for a free next season.
We can discuss who of Bayern or Leipzig made the best deal. Yes, currently Sabitzer helps Bayern more - but from a financial view Moriba is the better deal.

I think that Leipzig's first rival is Dortmund or maybe clubs like Wolfsburg, Gladbach etc. - not Bayern.

 

[Shane88]

What an absolute joke of a league.

 

[Sphaero]

Bayern just have a much better coaching and managerial set up than Dortmund, that help elevate their players.

No, Bayern simply operates from a position of power while Dortmund is forced to compromise and can´t reap all benefits from good scouting and development. The formers margin of error is far smaller than the latters.

The biggest difference between Bayern and Dortmund is that one can keep a hold on their key players while the other can´t. With the same prestige and financial capabilites, Dortmund would not have a clear weak spot in the RB position because they would have signed Achraf Hakimi, they would have never lost the clear defensive leader for a couple of years or the brain in the midfield. They would not look forward to lose a sensational striker next year because of a release clause. Hell, maybe even Sancho would still wear yellow and black.

It is so easy to judge from a high horse when you are not presented with the same challenges. But go on and pat yourself on the back for "discovering" Joshua Kimmich (half the Bundesliga was after him, including Borussia Dortmund). He will be a central figure for years to come, because he signed a new contract with wages Borussia Dortmund could never afford without pulverizing their wage structure...

 

[hasanejaz88]

Brandt was the only one who was a key player and that only for a few months since Bosz took over. Nobody was sad when Toprak and Castro left because they were decent players but nothing more. And nobody was surprised they failed at Dortmund, not even Brandt. The guy was an idiot for leaving the moment he had his break through, finally being played in his position, for a club that wanted to use him variably. Moreover: Dortmund brings in lots of talent from outside the league while Bayern's marquee signings consist more and more of domestic players. It's no coincidence that Bayern's line up consists almost entirely of players purchased from domestic rivals while Dortmund's doesn't.

I don't understand why people in here are always so ultra protective. This isn't mean as an attack, it's just the way it is and it doesn't look like anything is about to change.

What are you talking about? Out of their 10 most expensive signings, 4 have been from the Bundesliga (3 being in the bottom half).

At the top you have L.Hernandez, Sane, Upamecano, Tolisso, Javi Martinez and Arturo Vidal; only 1 from the BL and most of them in the last 5-6 seasons. Of course you can include Lewandowski in this as he was a free signing and would also be a top signing, but it is compelte BS to say Bayern's marquee signings have been domestic players when it's the opposite. In fact, Bayern have missed out on the most marquee Bundesliga signings recently (De Bruyne, Sane when he went to City, Sancho, Dembele).

Next I suppose you'll say Gnabry was a marquee signing, eventhough the season before he was a flop at Arsenal and had only one good season at Bremen

Dortmund have signed plenty of talened BL players in the same time, it's simply that they haven't managed to elevate them to the same level that Bayern have to their own players. There were plenty of doubts around Goretzka when he signed as well, you can go back to his transfer thread to see. He was no different to Dortmund signing Brandt, obviously one turned into a world class player and the other wasn't able to adjust with change of managers.

 

[ForEverEleven]

Brandt was the only one who was a key player and that only for a few months since Bosz took over. Nobody was sad when Toprak and Castro left because they were decent players but nothing more. And nobody was surprised they failed at Dortmund, not even Brandt. The guy was an idiot for leaving the moment he had his break through, finally being played in his position, for a club that wanted to use him variably. Moreover: Dortmund brings in lots of talent from outside the league while Bayern's marquee signings consist more and more of domestic players. It's no coincidence that Bayern's line up consists almost entirely of players purchased from domestic rivals while Dortmund's doesn't.

I don't understand why people in here are always so ultra protective. This isn't mean as an attack, it's just the way it is and it doesn't look like anything is about to change.

That´s not true at all. Toprak and Castro were key players when they left, no need to sugarcoat it.

But in the end, the whole discussion is pointless. Every club on their level acts the same. There is a clear food chain in german football and everyone buys from the teams that are one or two steps below them financially. Bayern buys Sabitzer, Upa, Nübel, Gnabry and Goretzka, Dortmund buys Brandt, Hazard, Kobel, Delaney, Dahoud and Schulz, we buy Demirbay, Amiri, Hradecky, Andrich and so on. It´s also untrue to say that clubs focus on different markets, if you really look at it. Every club signs domestic players, every club tries some foreign players, preferably young talents. Bayern bought Richards, Davies, Roca, Tolisso and Hernandez just like Dortmund bought Haaland, Bellingham, Malen, Meunier, Witsel and Kamara. There is no difference.

 

[AjaxCunian]

It is so funny how Bayern fans bring up Dortmund, who have largely been buying squad players and not systematically the very best players from their just-below rivals who have set there heart to joining Dortmund as Dortmund guarantees trophies, and therefore transfer to Dortmund for significantly lower prices than their market value or let their contracts run down.

What Bayern is doing isn't illegal, but it is absolutely terrible for the league. I really hope that it comes back to bite them as Man United, Real, Bayern, etc outgrows them completely and they can't compete in the CL anymore because their revenues will never match up, and they can primarily go for German/Bundesliga players only I'd hope.