Giving up on a player after only one season...

[Rozay]

Is this ever the right thing to do? Being an Internet forum regular, I’ve of course grown accustomed to the cliches of ‘needs to adjust to weather, culture, hasn’t played at this level before, different style of football, he had a cold a few months ago’ etc. That said, sometimes, you look at a player and see absolutely NOTHING and think he needs to be shipped out immediately.

I ask this as I recall in the summer when there was interest in Dan James, and reports came out from the club that they didn’t want to be ‘seen’ to be giving up on a young player after only one year. Many fans felt they had seen enough, and he was so far out of his depth, but the club viewed it from a position of principle more than anything else it seems.

For my own part, I’ve typically been open to giving a poor player more time, and the one time I can recall being absolutely convinced a player needed to be shipped out at the earliest possible opportunity was Victor Lindelöf. He had no qualities at all that offered hope that he would be good enough, and he’s managed to turn it around, so it has made me hesitant since then. Then again, players like Lazar Markovic joined Liverpool for £20m with a big rep and was shipped out (on loan admittedly) after one year.

Do you guys think clubs should ever write off a player after a season?

 

[Dancfc]

Should be obvious which one's are a case of needing more time and which just won't cut it full stop, if not with supporters certainly with coaches.

 

[DOTA]

It obviously depends. If they look good in training but haven't quite managed to produce it on the pitch, then there's certainly an argument for more time. If they're both crap on the pitch and being difficult off it then you get rid.

 

[groovyalbert]

Depends on a lot of factors surrounding the player in question - age, cost, expectations, position, re-sell, etc - as well as the state of the squad they're a part of.

Basically, it's impossible not to judge this on a case-by-case process.

That said, if you're binning off players after a season, it probably speaks more of a poor scouting system/bigger issues concerning the running of a club.

 

[Zen86]

There's no way you could deliver a definitive, clear cut answer to this. It's a question dependent on lots of variables, but ultimately it comes down to whether the manager believes there is the makings of a good player in there. What the fans think is irrelevant as a) they're generally fickle and b) they don't see what goes on outside of a match.

 

[Idxomer]

The club "gave up" on Depay and Schneiderlin pretty quickly, can't remember anyone here complaining.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

No issue at all if you can flip them for a profit like we could have with Dan James last summer.

 

[Rozay]

For all those saying ‘it depends’, I get it, although it doesn’t really speak on the sheer principle of it.

As I said in the OP, the noises coming from United in the summer re:James wasn’t about ‘we have faith and think he’ll come good’ - it was that ‘we don’t want to look like a club that gives up on a young player after a year’. That’s very different. What do you guys think of it from that perspective?

It may explain why we have perhaps been slow to sell underperforming players in general. I think we like to be seen as ‘different’ and a ‘family club’ so to speak - and perhaps the optics matter to us more than other clubs?

 

[lex talionis]

In principle, yes. A player can turn out to be so bad during that one year that it would be the responsible thing to sell or release the player.

But in general is it reasonable to give a player a second year to right his ship? Sure.

 

[DOTA]

For all those saying ‘it depends’, I get it, although it doesn’t really speak on the sheer principle of it.

As I said in the OP, the noises coming from United in the summer re:James wasn’t about ‘we have faith and think he’ll come good’ - it was that ‘we don’t want to look like a club that gives up on a young player after a year’. That’s very different. What do you guys think of it from that perspective?

It may explain why we have perhaps been slow to sell underperforming players in general. I think we like to be seen as ‘different’ and a ‘family club’ so to speak - and perhaps the optics matter to us more than other clubs?

I think you've read one comment about one player and gotten stuck on it. There were obviously far more factors involved than just the club not wanting to be seen as giving up early on James.

 

[spiriticon]

If we give up on young players too early, it does impact in the future how other young players view the club and how they are likely to be treated by us.

If you were a young player, would you join such a club that bins you off after 6 months, if it weren't for the money? feck no, off to Citeh I go.

 

[Zen86]

For all those saying ‘it depends’, I get it, although it doesn’t really speak on the sheer principle of it.

As I said in the OP, the noises coming from United in the summer re:James wasn’t about ‘we have faith and think he’ll come good’ - it was that ‘we don’t want to look like a club that gives up on a young player after a year’. That’s very different. What do you guys think of it from that perspective?

It may explain why we have perhaps been slow to sell underperforming players in general. I think we like to be seen as ‘different’ and a ‘family club’ so to speak - and perhaps the optics matter to us more than other clubs?

Young players almost certainly improve with time, some kick on massively while others don't. I agree that young players should be given time. That said, I don't think it's for "family club" reasons as you suggest. As an alternative thought, if we were cut-throat with our young players and binned them off after a year, do you think that would have a positive or negative effect on the other players coming through? I cannot see that kind of additional pressure being beneficial.

 

[Rozay]

I think you've read one comment about one player and gotten stuck on it. There were obviously far more factors involved than just the club not wanting to be seen as giving up early on James.

I’m not stuck on it. I’m asking the question is all. I want to see if it is a view that is shared.

 

[P-Nut]

Don't see an issue with it personally. I think fans get too hung up on stuff like this. If you are brought in to do a job and are terrible at it then you should get moved on, just like in any other walk of life.

We did it with Di Maria albeit with very different circumstances, but sometimes it's just about cutting losses and moving on from a mistake as quickly as possible.

 

[Rozay]

Young players almost certainly improve with time, some kick on massively while others don't. I agree that young players should be given time. That said, I don't think it's for "family club" reasons as you suggest. As an alternative thought, if we were cut-throat with our young players and binned them off after a year, do you think that would have a positive or negative effect on the other players coming through? I cannot see that kind of additional pressure being beneficial.

This is the question that I’m asking partly. That would make it about optics. Seems more of a principle argument than any inherent faith in the player in question.

I can’t remember us selling a player after a season for a very long time. And usually, the ones who have had terrible seasons have improved. Fred and Lindelöf being recent examples. As I said, I only really gave up on Lindelöf during his first season, and that has turned out premature. I think his performance at Huddersfield really affected me for a while! But considering that, going forward, is it then always premature, despite how terrible a player may be?

 

[DOTA]

But considering that, going forward, is it then always premature, despite how terrible a player may be?

If a player is doing everything else right, then the club getting rid after just one season based solely on their poor performance on the pitch is likely premature, yeah.

 

[Brightonian]

I can imagine the odd extreme situation where a manager might do it. Mostly, at a club like this, we don't need to make money on transfers so why not simply wait and see. If you've brought a player in on huge wages and they're so incredibly crap you're not willing to even give them another season, then you shouldn't keep your job to be honest.

In my opinion no supporter should ever be calling for us to get rid of a player after a season or less. Fans simply don't see enough of what a player is doing to be able to make that judgement. Again, especially at a club where getting rid of the player doesn't significantly benefit you anyway.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

You shouldn't be ruled purely by stringent principals for such things. It's the same as the whole "managers should get to build their own team/at least 2 years" rubbish. Should Valencia have given Gary "I'll never manage again" Neville? Should we have given Moyes 2-3?

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

Usually, I am a big believer in giving new players time to settle in and that often means more than a season, maybe even 2/3 under the right circumstances. However, with James in the summer I personally would have sold him as I think it was clear that he will never be good enough to be a Manchester Utd first-teamer.

On the opposite side of the coin, I see some fans saying we should get rid of VDB this summer which I think would be the wrong decision. He's clearly a player with talent who has performed well at a good level for Ajax and despite him clearly struggling to adjust I just think its too soon to make a definitive judgement one way or another. For me personally, I will always cut a foreign player from a different league and setup more slack, than a player whos been in the league for years because the expectation is you pay a premium for them to settle faster i.e Harry Magure.

 

[Hughes35]

Should be on a case by case basis. A lot of factors:

1. Money paid / Market value
2. Age
3. Wages
4. Attitude
5. Talent / potential

I actually disagree on some of the posts saying that by letting a young player go after one year it makes other young players reluctant. I think it's far more damaging to keep the players so they get years of no first team football. The right thing to do for the player is let them go and have a good career elsewhere.

As a rule, Utd do seem to hold on to their players a little too long.

I am up for giving players a second season in the majority of cases...... If they have the right attitude.

 

[AgentSmith]

This is the question that I’m asking partly. That would make it about optics. Seems more of a principle argument than any inherent faith in the player in question.

I can’t remember us selling a player after a season for a very long time. And usually, the ones who have had terrible seasons have improved. Fred and Lindelöf being recent examples. As I said, I only really gave up on Lindelöf during his first season, and that has turned out premature. I think his performance at Huddersfield really affected me for a while! But considering that, going forward, is it then always premature, despite how terrible a player may be?

I think it should be expected that a player arriving from outside England is given at least a year to get acclimatised to the speed and physicality of the league before any definitive judgement is made.

The transition from living in somewhere like the Mediterranean to the cold greyness of Manchester is enough of a shock to the system.

 

[SAFMUTD]

The truth is that while there are some examples about players that turn it around after some time, most of the ones that dont look good in their first season never will.

More often than not those players end as failures who's value drop even more and would have been wise to ship them out early. Im struggling to remember someone who look bad in their first season and then turned out amazing. I mean amazing as if we would regret not given him more time, not ok/good like Fred who has become useful but wouldnt lose sleep at night if we had sold him.

 

[Varun]

Clubs can, a year of watching a player in games, training etc can often be enough. Posters on the forum is a different matter altogether, we all like to talk like we understand but we're clueless

 

[RashyForPM]

Completely agree. I’ve been moaning about this in regards to VdB. People now think he’ll never be a good AM and will not amount to anything more than a backup CM. This is probably some of the same people who said in the summer after he signed, “he is value for money and is the type of signing to succeed”. Now, he will never be better than an average midfielder even though he was a top class one at Ajax who was a mainstay in their CL semi season. All because he isn’t having a great season as a result of minimal game time.

 

[Rozay]

Completely agree. I’ve been moaning about this in regards to VdB. People now think he’ll never be a good AM and will not amount to anything more than a backup CM. This is probably some of the same people who said in the summer after he signed, “he is value for money and is the type of signing to succeed”. Now, he will never be better than an average midfielder even though he was a top class one at Ajax who was a mainstay in their CL semi season. All because he isn’t having a great season as a result of minimal game time.

So if we had the opportunity to get our money back on VDB in the summer, you’d be totally against it? Just to clarify.

I’m not saying I agree or disagree, for the record.

 

[DanClancy]

There's posters on here who still make excuses for Pogba under performing for his first 5 seasons.

 

[Bebestation]

Should be obvious which one's are a case of needing more time and which just won't cut it full stop, if not with supporters certainly with coaches.

Does Havertz seem like he need an extra season or already a flop?

 

[bsCallout]

The club "gave up" on Depay and Schneiderlin pretty quickly, can't remember anyone here complaining.

Depay is one of the few I wish we'd stuck with so that he played under Ole.

James is one to me that just doesn't look good enough, it's not a case of not being used to it or needing to adapt, he just doesn't seem technically good enough.

 

[bsCallout]

Completely agree. I’ve been moaning about this in regards to VdB. People now think he’ll never be a good AM and will not amount to anything more than a backup CM. This is probably some of the same people who said in the summer after he signed, “he is value for money and is the type of signing to succeed”. Now, he will never be better than an average midfielder even though he was a top class one at Ajax who was a mainstay in their CL semi season. All because he isn’t having a great season as a result of minimal game time.

VdB is definitely one being written off too quickly, on the other hand people are trying to rush Ole into forcing him in the team.

 

[RashyForPM]

So if we had the opportunity to get our money back on VDB in the summer, you’d be totally against it? Just to clarify.

I’m not saying I agree or disagree, for the record.

For sure. Not a hope on this planet and beyond am I getting rid of someone we considered a bargain for £37m after one season. Not when I take into account his pedigree of consistent goals from midfield in all of the Eredivisie, CL and with Netherlands, and the fact that he was one of the top performers in a CL semi-finalist team. He doesn’t get game time. He only played 19 minutes against Leeds ffs. Ole clearly does trust him yet, and he hasn’t adapted. Give it time.

 

[Bebestation]

So if we had the opportunity to get our money back on VDB in the summer, you’d be totally against it? Just to clarify.

I’m not saying I agree or disagree, for the record.

I think ultimately it's not about us fans.

We like to think we have a big influence in the footballing decisions but ultimately all United decisions are done probably by a group of 100 people max that sit behind Old Trafford and people who we have no comparison to.

We see fans complain about the 80 million spent of Magure - why complain about the Money that we hardly gave Manchester United football club? Was it really our 80 million? Ultimately I never care about how much we spent and who we spent it on because ultimately it's not from my wallet. From Verons to klebersons to Maguires to VDB to Di Maria; all will have a cost that ultimately is not related to us and have/should forget.

I say all of this because ultimately VDB'S decision is based on the United workers and the manager.

Whether our fans think he is a flop is not important - if Ole decides he is a quality player with the potential to improve he will stay. If not he will be sold.

Asking what fans think or should do is not necessary because ultimately we have no decisions to make.

 

[mu4c_20le]

The club "gave up" on Depay and Schneiderlin pretty quickly, can't remember anyone here complaining.

I'd say both were victims of managerial change

 

[izec]

I'd give up on van de Beek after one year.

You can give him 5, he wont cut it here under Ole. If Ole is our manager next season, no point in keeping him and ruining his career and us losing value in an asset. I would rather get 30m back and invest in a starter, than keeping someone completely opposite to how you play and what he knows.

 

[WeePat]

There must have been something decent/good/talented about the player that pushed the club to buy him in the first place. I think in most cases, it would help to hold off on binning the player, but in principle it isn't wrong to give up on a player after one season.

 

[Rozay]

Modric is a good example of patience. Voted the ‘wooden spoon’ as the worst signing in La Liga after his first season, but will probably go down in history as a Real Madrid great now.

 

[Tom Cato]

Clubs can, a year of watching a player in games, training etc can often be enough. Posters on the forum is a different matter altogether, we all like to talk like we understand but we're clueless

I talk a big game but I was over here saying that signing Bruno was a waste of time.

 

[rotherham_red]

I don't think you should give up on players after a season. I've seen players improve beyond recognition after a difficult season and with the sums involved in purchasing these players, you can't just write off that level of investment. Fred is probably the best example of a player who initially looked hopelessly adrift of the standard required, and with good management and hard work he brought himself up to a level good enough that he doesn't look out of place in the PL.

 

[Varun]

I talk a big game but I was over here saying that signing Bruno was a waste of time.

At least you admit it. You'd be hard pressed to find too many others.

 

[rotherham_red]

I'd give up on van de Beek after one year.

You can give him 5, he wont cut it here under Ole. If Ole is our manager next season, no point in keeping him and ruining his career and us losing value in an asset. I would rather get 30m back and invest in a starter, than keeping someone completely opposite to how you play and what he knows.

Would you have said that about Fred in his first season here? Or Lindelof? Both of those players looked hopelessly adrift of even the standard of being PL level players, let alone Utd players and they improved to a good enough extent that they are in the team more often than not and don't tend to look out of place.

With VdB, I think it's more down to the difference in the way he plays compared to the rest of the team. If we had more time to actually do training ground work (rather than preparing for the next game and resting and recuperating) we might have seen some tweaks, but as it is, I think it'll have to wait for the preseason next year, which we never really got in 2020, to see how Donny fits with the team.

 

[izec]

Would you have said that about Fred in his first season here? Or Lindelof? Both of those players looked hopelessly adrift of even the standard of being PL level players, let alone Utd players and they improved to a good enough extent that they are in the team more often than not and don't tend to look out of place.

With VdB, I think it's more down to the difference in the way he plays compared to the rest of the team. If we had more time to actually do training ground work (rather than preparing for the next game and resting and recuperating) we might have seen some tweaks, but as it is, I think it'll have to wait for the preseason next year, which we never really got in 2020, to see how Donny fits with the team.

Lindelöf and Fred are not flawless and plenty of doubt about them as starters. We are looking to upgrade Lindelöf and Fred is decent. The issue is both are not system players. Van de Beek only knows Ajax.

To me, all 3 are squad players at best and have no business starting for a club that wants to fight for trophies. Fred suits us well, since he covers a lot of ground, but the other two don‘t. Lindelöf we want to upgrade on in the summer for a reason.

Van de Beek doesnt need a small tweak, he is simply not suited to us. We will never play to his strengths and he will never change to be an individual match winner. Simple as. Midfielders that thrive in space and that you need to find their movement with passing simply are not working at United under Ole. Completely pointless.