Leverkusen seems to be awesome at it. Frigging unreal, total outlier.
Going full defensive to keep the lead
- Thread starter Andycoleno9
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As a general question, I always wonder how they prepare this sort of change of style/approach. The idea is usually that managers have a general game plan, and that training drills repeat key situations so often, that they become second instinct by players. That way, they make the right moves automatically on game day, reducing the number of split second decisions they need to make. That's why the Plan B of a well-drilled team is usually a lot like Plan A: you can't just ask players to change to a different set of automatisms mid-game.
So how does that work for a defensive shift to 'see the game out'? I get how adding replacing players who focus on attack with players focusing on defense necessarily pushes the team backward, and packing your own half makes attacking harder for the opponent. But if you break up patterns and automatisms, won't players get confused more easily, leading to more flaws and errors for the opponent to exploit? I also doubt managers train on two distinct sets of patterns, as that's confusing as well. So except if the current plan is failing or players are getting really tired, is shifting into a defensive mode ever a good idea?
So how does that work for a defensive shift to 'see the game out'? I get how adding replacing players who focus on attack with players focusing on defense necessarily pushes the team backward, and packing your own half makes attacking harder for the opponent. But if you break up patterns and automatisms, won't players get confused more easily, leading to more flaws and errors for the opponent to exploit? I also doubt managers train on two distinct sets of patterns, as that's confusing as well. So except if the current plan is failing or players are getting really tired, is shifting into a defensive mode ever a good idea?
It was a like-for-like sub so not much changes on formation and tactics. To sit out a lead, you need to change the entire mind-set entirely, such as I will never pass the half-way line even when we have the ball, that kind of attitude and discipline. Replacing Bruno with McTom and Pogba for Fred, is not going to instils additional safety inside the box, it should be outside the box. With more disruption and breakdown outside the box, hence lower the risk of building up. But when it come to set piece defence, it is really down to individuals like McTom and Fred on understanding their role on defence. McTom perhaps yes but you won't trust Fred on man-marking or aerial defence.
This defence cannot keep one goal leads when the pressure is on them. We need an upgrade on Lindelof. Until then we cannot go full defensive.
I don’t get why we did not just just bypass their press by going long to our wide men. Everytime we managed to bypass their press we carved out a chance because they could not get back their defensive shape in time as they had already committed so many men in our half for their press.
Why weren't Southampton tired, have they played less than us? Genuinely wondering
We’ve played 7 matches to their 6 since the restart.
I don't think it was about being defensive, we were just crap.
And we went the full 120 against Norwich.
It's been obvious even when we've kept a clean sheet we look like a team who needs to score quite a few to be sure we're going to win a game. That isn't a title winning strategy very often. We did waste some great chances though, that would have killed the game. I don't think we went full defensive, but our counter attacking game was weak yesterday with Bruno not on his game, it just didn't have the usual crisp and accurate passing.
Definitely wasn't by choice.
You could see the boys were dead on their feet, then the injury that put us down to 10 men just cemented it all.
You could see the boys were dead on their feet, then the injury that put us down to 10 men just cemented it all.
Perfect analysis. Everyone that understood football was praying for Bruno to make a 3 in the middle to gain more control.
The players were tired, but part of the problem is when you're playing defense you're reacting and not able to dictate pace, that tired them even more.
Seriously? How was Lindelof at fault today?
The worst defender today was AWB and has been for the last 3 games. Everything came down his side. He was not close enough, his ball control was rubbish and his passing was piss poor.
How someone is labelling Lindelof is dumb.. when he was probably our best defender.
Pogba came off the bench for that extra game along with Martial. Greenwood and Rashford didn’t look tired either whilst Bruno was just having a crap game.
The team are not just setting out to go full defence... but you have to defend when Southampton have the ball and we gave up any opportunity to counter attack by players being brainless and just hoofing it up the pitch every time we turned the ball over in defence. We needed to show a bit of composure and play our way out and we consistently failed to do so. Obviously it didn't help that Southampton were giving it everything to get back in the game and we were down to 10 men at the end.
Where in my post is it stated that Lindelof was at fault today? I was talking in general from what I have seen this season. Lindelof was decent today but he's still the weak link in defence overall and the one that we can upgrade on.
Sure... but why? They played the exact same amount of games as us since the restart. And they played much tougher games than us; we could afford to take our foot off the pedal in the last 30 minutes of the previous four games, sub off our best players, and so on. Why did Southampton look so much fitter?
I wonder if Solskjaer didn't tell Fernandes to drop back a little deeper to offer more support to Pogba and Matic - or if he did tell him but Bruno simply ignored it? Because he kept playing directly behind Martial for most of the game and there was an absolutely massive gap between him and Pogba which Southampton gleefully exploited for most of the game.
Because the team(that is on the pitch at that time) is not able to keep possession, i.e. probability of making mistake on the ball with Fred, McT in midfield...
1. We have played one more game in the FA CUP
2. Pressure - Southampton have no pressure so they can play freely.
People do not understand how it is for a team without pressure to come and play, they could either play really well or really crap.
Playing against United in this form was a motivation for them to see how well far their team has come.
That little twat was Micheal Obafemi mate, not Obafemi Martins
Does look a decent player though.
Okay, one extra game, fair enough. Only Shaw (one of our best players last night), Maguire, and Fernandes started at Norwich though.
And I get the pressure but that's a mental thing, not physical. The pressure got to us and we retreated into our shells, exactly when we should have been flying high with confidence after winning the previous four games with 3+ goals and coming from behind in this one. That is either a worrying issue with our mental strength - or we just have no fitness whatsoever and then we have to ask what the feck are we doing in training?
I don't know, really. We've been unchanged in 5 games and had an additional cup game which went to extra time.
I don't think it's a case of our players being unfit as such. Bruno ran his bollocks off for most of the game, as did Martial and Rashford. I think Matic and Pogba just struggled to come to terms with their press.
It looked intentional as if we were trying to go for that direct ball. Unfortunately we had issues with getting that pass out whilst being pressed.
To me that was a mental block. We got our lead and played no football. No control of the game.
I do agree with some people about Ole's in game management. It was difficult getting Greenwood in the game, they came at us with alot of energy. Why not change formation to bolster the midfield?
However; this happens and we have to learn from this.
Isn't that the important bit?
Agreed. This was the first one post lockdown where I feel the other team has played at PL intensity. It was Southampton's cup final in many ways, nothing much else to play for, why not try and take down what is currently one of the absolute best teams in the PL? United's first 11 has played a lot and ran out of legs. Rashford and Pogba hadn't played much football even before lockdown, Greenwood's very young, and of course we were unfortunate that Brandon got an injury after Shaw had also gone off.
Still, some excellent performances, Martial, Shaw, Lindelof, Matic was running around like a 25 year old. And some mixed bags but the players are trying, it's a stressful situation being to close to being back at that CL top table, and very nearly got the win.
The test is how the team bounces back. Crystal Palace aren't mugs, but they're not as good as Southampton, who showed real toughness and physicality as well as having some good touch and quality.
I agree. I'm still not convinced on Lindelof, but he was excellent last night. Maybe a little weak on the equaliser, but over the course of the full game he was probably our 2nd best player after Martial.
AWB looks knackered. His movement has looked sluggish and his touches have been very heavy in the last couple of games. He, and many others, could do with a rest.
His touches are always heavy, that's just how he is as a footballer.
Depends what your trying to learn from a game? I mean we didn’t win did we so did we not do something wrong?
It wasn't intentional I think.
Seemed like tiredness really kicked in and players just started to conserve that little left of energy they had.
We had a multiple chances to put this game to bed long before we went defensive, shame about dropped points, but it's football, this things happen.
Seemed like tiredness really kicked in and players just started to conserve that little left of energy they had.
We had a multiple chances to put this game to bed long before we went defensive, shame about dropped points, but it's football, this things happen.
Yeah, quite sanguine about last night in all honesty.
Southampton are a good team - how they lost 9-0 to Leicester I've no idea - and we're knackered because the quality of our bench isn't up to it at the moment. Most other managers would have parked the bus at the end.
I do think we need an upgrade on Lindelof, and maybe we need to change our tactics when we play pressing teams - perhaps a switch to 3-5-2 might help us - but no complaints about the defensive tactics towards the end last night.
Southampton are a good team - how they lost 9-0 to Leicester I've no idea - and we're knackered because the quality of our bench isn't up to it at the moment. Most other managers would have parked the bus at the end.
I do think we need an upgrade on Lindelof, and maybe we need to change our tactics when we play pressing teams - perhaps a switch to 3-5-2 might help us - but no complaints about the defensive tactics towards the end last night.
Regardless of what we think of Lindelof for the long term, why do fans blame him for every goal conceded? yes, we need a quick CB but those were not the reasons we conceded.
AWB has been very poor last couple games. I do not buy this players need a rest. The players have been getting a rest. Bruno, Pogba, Martial, Rashford, Greenwood, Matic, AWB have all come off in games after 60/70 mins. We have had 4 days to rest in our last 2 games.
We were leggy against Villa as well. I know Matic has been playing really well but we do need legs, we are too static in the middle building up.
We didn't take our chances, for all their pressing we created another chances to win. Also the first goal came from slack play from Pogba.
It’s always easy to say we didn’t take our chances and if we was on top for the majority of the game with Southampton gaining a lucky goal I would agree.
But watching the game would you not agree that the goal was coming with us conceding possession and reverting to countering Southampton. Our chances your referring to in the second half come out of moments of Martial and Rashford brilliance.. but our midfield was terrible.
The midfield has been great so far, this is the first game they have looked lethargic. So maybe a touch of fatigue against a relentless pressing side was going to lead to problems. Ole probably hoped we could get through this and make changes against Palace, but now he has a problem and two players going off injured. Southampton are a good side, who are now making up for a bad spell they had, this was the wrong side to take risks with. Now they have to pick themselves up again. I would actually be tempted to forgo the F.A. Cup and concentrate on the league and EL ( to get in the first pot).
I’m with you the FA cup has to go. But I can’t see him doing it. I feel he’ll believe it is too important for the fans. Me personally I couldn’t careless. Give Maguire and your AWB’s a rest. We need top four and we are capable of beating Chelsea with our B team.
Well, yes. The players need to be fitter, for sure. Ole has banged that drum since he took the job, but we have constantly looked finished by the hour mark in a lot of games.
Based on current (poor) fitness levels, a lot of players need a rest, but ideally, they need to be able to go the distance. If anyone should have been tired last night it should have been Southampton given the way they play and have played even when there's only been 3-4 days between fixtures. They look incredibly fit. In stoppage time they looked like they could have played another 45 minutes.
That is on Ole. We cannot rest our players every 2/3 games because they are unfit. I think Ole has been a reason for this.
By not giving our players 90 mins in the games, they are used to playing 60 mins.