Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

Nickelodeon

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As a media personality, it seems embarrassing that he spends so much of his time focused on one player. And all those statements are particularly scathing and are not part of a "regular" critique method.

Having said that, I don't think much of his criticism of Pogba is unfair (despite being significantly over-the-top). His point about Pogba posting dancing videos and basketball stuff while being out injured for throughout the season warrants criticism considering that he hasn't been seen at a single United game in this period. Had this criticism come from a Neville or a Keane, we might have taken it a bit more seriously.

As much as we want to make it a Pogba Vs. Souness debate and side with Pogba, we might hate the messenger but we can't turn a blind eye to the message. I'm quite sure that such behavior, coupled with Raiola's comments wouldn't have been tolerated during Fergie's reign. Either Raiola would be sacked by Pogba or Pogba himself would've been booted out in the summer.

The latest debate between Souness and Pogba regarding "Don't even know him" and "Put the medals on the table" is just a new low for both of them.
 

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As a media personality, it seems embarrassing that he spends so much of his time focused on one player. And all those statements are particularly scathing and are not part of a "regular" critique method.

Having said that, I don't think much of his criticism of Pogba is unfair (despite being significantly over-the-top). His point about Pogba posting dancing videos and basketball stuff while being out injured for throughout the season warrants criticism considering that he hasn't been seen at a single United game in this period. Had this criticism come from a Neville or a Keane, we might have taken it a bit more seriously.

As much as we want to make it a Pogba Vs. Souness debate and side with Pogba, we might hate the messenger but we can't turn a blind eye to the message. I'm quite sure that such behavior, coupled with Raiola's comments wouldn't have been tolerated during Fergie's reign. Either Raiola would be sacked by Pogba or Pogba himself would've been booted out in the summer.

The latest debate between Souness and Pogba regarding "Don't even know him" and "Put the medals on the table" is just a new low for both of them.
Personally I think doing little dance moves in your own home is less physically demanding than Premier League football.
 

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Personally I think doing little dance moves in your own home is less physically demanding than Premier League football.
I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Being at a single United game meant watching the game from the stands. Injured players do that all the time. Can't recall Pogba being at one.
 

B20

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Played in differently eras but Souness was a dirty hatchet man who’d get sent off every week in the modern game.
And was nonetheless a better midfielder than Pogba. Only Vieira and Keane compare to him in that role from the PL era.
 

padzilla

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I think there's an issue of players from decades ago still being used as mainstream pundits and applying outdated views on the modern game. There is a reason Neville and Carragher are heralded so much, they only retired in the last decade which means they are better equipped to give insight on the modern game.
 

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You’re right in one sense. Your man Gerrard is a no-mark in such company.
The thing that always confuses me with Gerrard is when people try and compare him as a centre mid to Keane etc.

He was much more an attacking mid. There was a reason Benitez for one didn't trust him deeper.
 

Bwuk

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And was nonetheless a better midfielder than Pogba. Only Vieira and Keane compare to him in that role from the PL era.
He was a dirty hatchet man and some of his tackles were beyond disgusting. He'd be found out in the modern game where he wouldn't get away with that.
 

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The thing that always confuses me with Gerrard is when people try and compare him as a centre mid to Keane etc.

He was much more an attacking mid. There was a reason Benitez for one didn't trust him deeper.
He was an absolute liability deeper. It’s an insult to actual quality midfield players for Gerrard to be included in such a debate.
 

Sandikan

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He was an absolute liability deeper. It’s an insult to actual quality midfield players for Gerrard to be included in such a debate.
But he always gets into these neutral premier league x1s as a centre .
We all know it's because they need a Liverpool player in there.
 

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As a media personality, it seems embarrassing that he spends so much of his time focused on one player. And all those statements are particularly scathing and are not part of a "regular" critique method.

Having said that, I don't think much of his criticism of Pogba is unfair (despite being significantly over-the-top). His point about Pogba posting dancing videos and basketball stuff while being out injured for throughout the season warrants criticism considering that he hasn't been seen at a single United game in this period. Had this criticism come from a Neville or a Keane, we might have taken it a bit more seriously.

As much as we want to make it a Pogba Vs. Souness debate and side with Pogba, we might hate the messenger but we can't turn a blind eye to the message. I'm quite sure that such behavior, coupled with Raiola's comments wouldn't have been tolerated during Fergie's reign. Either Raiola would be sacked by Pogba or Pogba himself would've been booted out in the summer.

The latest debate between Souness and Pogba regarding "Don't even know him" and "Put the medals on the table" is just a new low for both of them.
1. If it’s particularly scathing and not regular critique, how is it fair ?

2. That’s just a lie, might do some research if you want to write a post saying he hasn’t been seen at a single game since his injuries. City game is just one example.

3. How is Pogba saying “ Ididn’t know who he was, but heard he was a great player” a low for him?
 

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He was a dirty hatchet man and some of his tackles were beyond disgusting. He'd be found out in the modern game where he wouldn't get away with that.
And some of Keane, Vieira and Davids' tackles were beyond disgusting as well, all of whom had fairly patchy disciplinary records. Still the best central midfielders of their generation though.
 

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There is no denying that Pogba has divided the CAF to the extent that some supporters (like myself) agree with Graeme f... Souness. The modern game argument works when we talk tactics or player fitness. It's much more evolved than in the 80s. I don't care from what decade you are heart and commitment are always desiarble and Pogba has been lacking both.
 

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There isnt a Pogba vs Souness thing going on, despite how some frame it. Sky defo want to play it up given theres nothing else going on.
Pogba probably doesnt even hear any of the stuff that Souness says, especially after / before games.

Although active on Social media, Pogba doesnt seem the type who will scroll through finding clips related to him. instead he will just post what hes doing, and show that hes having fun, promoting whats needed or challenging friends (eg Zlatan).
Souness heard Pogbas responses but Pogba had to be told about Souness comments and pretty much downplayed it and moved on.

And yeah great post @Rozay
 

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He was an absolute liability deeper. It’s an insult to actual quality midfield players for Gerrard to be included in such a debate.
This is an exaggeration. He started his career defensive midfield, played well and got into the England set up. He was more than good as a CM. Did he not play CM before Benitez and was instrumental to their treble?
 

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This is an exaggeration. He started his career defensive midfield, played well and got into the England set up. He was more than good as a CM. Did he not play CM before Benitez and was instrumental to their treble?
Of course it’s an exaggeration but Gerrard belongs nowhere the likes of Keane or Vieira, both of whom were force of nature captains in multiple title winning sides.

I can’t remember where Gerrard was played when Liverpool won their plastic treble, or who was playing alongside him. Irrespective, it was a trio of secondary trophies.

It was quite instructive that Benitez played him as a number 10 or even off the right because he didn’t get the discipline afforded by Alonso and Mascherano.
 

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I think you misunderstood what I was saying. Being at a single United game meant watching the game from the stands. Injured players do that all the time. Can't recall Pogba being at one.
Since when, before Pogba’s injury, has that ever been held as some sort of requirement for injured players? When was the last time, if ever, a conversation was started because an injured player was not in the stadium?

How many games have you seen Rashford at since January? How many Eric Bailly before that? How many Harry Kane? It’s a non-story, just an ever-shifting goalpost regarding Pogba.

Him posting himself shooting hoops or at his brother’s wedding can only possibly be a problem or even a story if he were not supposed to be there. In and of themselves, the act of shooting a basketball or attending a wedding are obviously not ‘bad’ things. In this context, they can only possibly be made ‘bad’ if the player was not permitted to do it at the time. There hasn’t been even the slightest suggestion that this is the case. If he was permitted to do it, then he’s obviously permitted to post it, as he can post what he wants on his page about his life.

As I said in my longer rant, would there have been a problem if he posted himself playing with his cute dogs? Alexis’ constant posting of his dogs on his Instagram (despite committing the crime of not playing well) has never led to a question of his focus, not once. In fact, it’s been used to discuss a ‘depth’ or whatever to him as a man if anything.

Why on earth would Fergie have ‘booted Pogba out’ for playing Basketball or dancing at a wedding?!!
 

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Let's be honest about Souness guys. He was very good in the age he played in because of what was allowed.

But not in today's game. What Pogba can do with a ball in terms of passing and skill it's not even a competition.

One is much more interesting to watch. Although that vid of Souness is entertaining but for an entirely different reason.
 

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Of course it’s an exaggeration but Gerrard belongs nowhere the likes of Keane or Vieira, both of whom were force of nature captains in multiple title winning sides.

I can’t remember where Gerrard was played when Liverpool won their plastic treble, or who was playing alongside him. Irrespective, it was a trio of secondary trophies.

It was quite instructive that Benitez played him as a number 10 or even off the right because he didn’t get the discipline afforded by Alonso and Mascherano.
Come on man. They still had to beat out good sides. 2 of those trophies were won by City last year and were seen as a great achievement. They were the best "cup side" domestically that year.

They beat Roma that season who went on to win Serie A. They beat Barcelona also. Beat Arsenal in the FA Cup final and Leeds early on.

Can't dismiss winning that many trophies in a season.

Liverpool finished 3rd in that season so were a top side with Gerrard in the midfield and he also won PFA Young player of the year, made the EPL Team of the season and won the PFA fans player of the year in midfield

Benitez is his own man and how he decides to set up is his own business but it isn't gospel.
 

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1. If it’s particularly scathing and not regular critique, how is it fair ?

2. That’s just a lie, might do some research if you want to write a post saying he hasn’t been seen at a single game since his injuries. City game is just one example.

3. How is Pogba saying “ Ididn’t know who he was, but heard he was a great player” a low for him?
It's more of the same really isn't?

Downplay Souness' weird obsession with Pogba and magnify Pogba's polite response to being asked about it.
 

Rozay

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There isnt a Pogba vs Souness thing going on, despite how some frame it. Sky defo want to play it up given theres nothing else going on.
Pogba probably doesnt even hear any of the stuff that Souness says, especially after / before games.

Although active on Social media, Pogba doesnt seem the type who will scroll through finding clips related to him. instead he will just post what hes doing, and show that hes having fun, promoting whats needed or challenging friends (eg Zlatan).
Souness heard Pogbas responses but Pogba had to be told about Souness comments and pretty much downplayed it and moved on.

And yeah great post @Rozay
Thanks.

And tbh, I agree to an extent, particularly about the most recent comments. That was all Jamie Carragher looking for a reaction from Souness, and stirring it further by calling it ‘below the belt’. Souness wasn’t pressing the issue, and yesterday, didn’t even look like he particularly wanted to get into it.

Often, his co-commentators are soliciting an anti-Pogba rant from him, and he seems to lack the sense or will to avoid it. If anything, I think Gary Neville is often more harmful in this area, partly because of his standing as a former United player too, so reds pay more attention to what he says. His attack on Pogba after the Wolves game was unacceptable for me, and as bad as I have seen from any pundit on this particular matter.
 

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Let's be honest about Souness guys. He was very good in the age he played in because of what was allowed.

But not in today's game. What Pogba can do with a ball in terms of passing and skill it's not even a competition.

One is much more interesting to watch. Although that vid of Souness is entertaining but for an entirely different reason.
Let's be honest about Souness, he was a leg-breaker who was lucky to be part of a good team at the time.
I'm sure he's so jealous of Pogba winning the World Cup! :D
 

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The thing that always confuses me with Gerrard is when people try and compare him as a centre mid to Keane etc.

He was much more an attacking mid. There was a reason Benitez for one didn't trust him deeper.
Aye, it's a lazy comparison. You often see it when pundits are compiling their best Premiership XIs and putting together them in a 1990s 4-4-2 formation. Keane and Gerrard performed different functions and both did it better than anyone else during the post-92 era. Keane dominated the league in the era of 4-4-2 while Gerrard dominated when 4-2-3-1 and 4-3-3 came to the fore. It would be a waste of Gerrard's attacking abilities to have him as the deepest midfielder, even though he did well enough there for England in the first half of the 2000s.
 

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Of course it’s an exaggeration but Gerrard belongs nowhere the likes of Keane or Vieira, both of whom were force of nature captains in multiple title winning sides.

I can’t remember where Gerrard was played when Liverpool won their plastic treble, or who was playing alongside him. Irrespective, it was a trio of secondary trophies.

It was quite instructive that Benitez played him as a number 10 or even off the right because he didn’t get the discipline afforded by Alonso and Mascherano.
No idea why you're bringing Gerrard to the discussion about Souness and Pogba, but your post is silly. "Gerrard belongs nowhere the likes of Keane and Vieira". That's just hyperbole. Of course they won more than him due to playing in better teams, but Gerrard was clearly on their level, just a very different player. Similar energy level and determination, better offensively, less tactical discipline. He's very underrated on this forum (unsurprisingly). There's a reason Mourinho tried to sign him for three clubs, and Ferguson wanted to replace Keane with him. Ferguson said this about him back in 04:

"He has become the most influential player in England, bar none. Not that Vieira lacks anything, but Gerrard does more."

Also, a bit fun to read the thread from here back when he was linked to you guys: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/ferguson-says-gerrard-is-better-than-keane-and-vieira.48711/
 
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Thanks.

And tbh, I agree to an extent, particularly about the most recent comments. That was all Jamie Carragher looking for a reaction from Souness, and stirring it further by calling it ‘below the belt’. Souness wasn’t pressing the issue, and yesterday, didn’t even look like he particularly wanted to get into it.

Often, his co-commentators are soliciting an anti-Pogba rant from him, and he seems to lack the sense or will to avoid it. If anything, I think Gary Neville is often more harmful in this area, partly because of his standing as a former United player too, so reds pay more attention to what he says. His attack on Pogba after the Wolves game was unacceptable for me, and as bad as I have seen from any pundit on this particular matter.
And the rest. When he told Pogba to "do one." Then after the Everton game when we lost 4 something, you know a lot was aimed at him. The Pogba penalty-gate where he said he expected Pogba to "snatch" the ball because he is selfish and was raging at him missing but cared littled when Rashford missed the week after and I think he may have even attributed the blame for Rashford miss on the penalty furore (which he created) from the week before. I may be wrong about this as my memory sometimes plays up.
 

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And the rest. When he told Pogba to "do one." Then after the Everton game when we lost 4 something, you know a lot was aimed at him. The Pogba penalty-gate where he said he expected Pogba to "snatch" the ball because he is selfish and was raging at him missing but cared littled when Rashford missed the week after and I think he may have even attributed the blame for Rashford miss on the penalty furore (which he created) from the week before. I may be wrong about this as my memory sometimes plays up.
This is true. Gary Neville says too much about too much in general tbh.
 

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I think if Wayne Rooney was black, that WWE thing would have caused bigger ructions. I mean, the club couldn't buy a goal at the time, Van Gaal was on the verge of being sacked, and our misfiring captain was dicking around play-acting. Yes, he's a United legend who could back up the hype on the pitch, but he's been unprofessional as hell several times throughout his career. How many times has he been caught out on the lash, pissing up against a wall, shagging around, etc? Has he been granted leeway through his status/performances? Definitely. It's obviously complicated, and race is by no means the only factor here, but he's got away lightly compared to some others. If Pogba did that now, it would not go down well at all.
I guess we'll never know. You should start a thread on things that would've been different if Wayne Rooney was black.
 

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This is an exaggeration. He started his career defensive midfield, played well and got into the England set up. He was more than good as a CM. Did he not play CM before Benitez and was instrumental to their treble?
Wasn't he a right back at first?
 

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This is true. Gary Neville says too much about too much in general tbh.
I don't want to derail the thread but he is troublesome as he is an ex player with a respected opinion. Most people hate Sourness and the whole Pogba v Sourness thing is often seen in jest, or a bit of Banter and Sourness is now a meme.

With Gary, I feel he fuels the anti-Pogba mob more than most
 

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Let's be honest about Souness, he was a leg-breaker who was lucky to be part of a good team at the time.
I'm sure he's so jealous of Pogba winning the World Cup! :D
Souness was a highly skilled and accomplished footballer with a brilliant passing range and technique as well as being a fecking maniac. He was, by no stretch of even the most fevered imagination, simply a "leg-breaker who was lucky to be part of a good team".
Let's not let his bizarre pseudo-feud with Pogba result in revisionist nonsense.
 

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Let's be honest about Souness, he was a leg-breaker who was lucky to be part of a good team at the time.
I'm sure he's so jealous of Pogba winning the World Cup! :D
He was a very good player to be honest.
 

Jeppers7

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Thanks.

And tbh, I agree to an extent, particularly about the most recent comments. That was all Jamie Carragher looking for a reaction from Souness, and stirring it further by calling it ‘below the belt’. Souness wasn’t pressing the issue, and yesterday, didn’t even look like he particularly wanted to get into it.

Often, his co-commentators are soliciting an anti-Pogba rant from him, and he seems to lack the sense or will to avoid it. If anything, I think Gary Neville is often more harmful in this area, partly because of his standing as a former United player too, so reds pay more attention to what he says. His attack on Pogba after the Wolves game was unacceptable for me, and as bad as I have seen from any pundit on this particular matter.
The Gary Neville one was really weird. He kept putting in a disclaimer ‘if they hadn’t done it last week’.....but they did and since he knew about it, then he was fine with it, then why did he keep making a Massive issue and then adding the disclaimer again ? He then seemed happy to sit back while Pogba suffered racial abuse on the back of it.
 

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I don't want to derail the thread but he is troublesome as he is an ex player with a respected opinion. Most people hate Sourness and the whole Pogba v Sourness thing is often seen in jest, or a bit of Banter and Sourness is now a meme.

With Gary, I feel he fuels the anti-Pogba mob more than most
Not gonna add much as like you, dont want to derail the thread, but with Neville I find his bias shows through and sometimes goes over board to show hes not biased.
But he clearly tends to support those he either played with or those he coached. He went in hard on DDG but was lighter on J.Hart.
He would go in on Pogba but not Lingard or Rashford.
 

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For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.
What a fantastic post! Amazing!