Graeme Sourness | Retires from “punditry”

[Steven7290]

I never heard of him tbf and had to look up to see what he has done as a player. Says more about my football knowledge but I dont think it's a jab from Pogba saying he doesnt know who Souness was.

 

[Jeppers7]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Great post.

 

[Sandikan]

It's like what your parents always told you. The coldest treatment is to ignore someone or play down their importance to anything.

Gets someone way more irate than any abusive words ever would.

 

[VorZakone]

The feck is wrong with Souness? This is getting ridicilous.

 

[Yagami]

He was always a bit mental tbf. Remember when he planted a Galatasaray flag in the middle of Fenerbache pitch in front of a hostile crowd?

I was not aware of this, no

 

[FootyGirl88]

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[Prometheus]

“Below the belt”

Did they actually say that? I don’t see how him not having heard of a player 30 years older than himself is anything close to a low blow. He probably hasn’t!

Delusion. How could he not have heard of the great Liverpool team of the pre-Jurassic era?

 

[Art Vandelay]

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I don't understand you young people and your Twittering, but why when I click on that does it say that Chlamydia is trending with David Moyes and Brendan Rodgers? What have they been up to?

 

[FootyGirl88]

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[Art Vandelay]

To be fair, if he's 21 then why would he have been playing football with kids that want to be a player from the 80's?

 

[Jeppers7]

To be fair, if he's 21 then why would he have been playing football with kids that want to be a player from the 80's?

Exactly the point he’s making on Pogba

 

[FootyGirl88]

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[ValenciasDrilledCrosses]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Brilliant post

 

[2 man midfield]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Great post

 

[Jippy]

Sounness is obviously an idiot and a World Cup is obviously the pinnacle, but people are weirdly downplaying his three European Cups- that's an incredibly rare haul.

 

[big rons sovereign]

Sounness is obviously an idiot and a World Cup is obviously the pinnacle, but people are weirdly downplaying his three European Cups- that's an incredibly rare haul.

Martin O'Neil has 2. He's not on TV with his bitter Scouse mate slagging off a man with more ability in his left nut than both of them.

 

[Jordan_mufc]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Brilliant post. The part that I bolded out really resonated with me.

I sincerely believe that if Pogba, personality traits and all, was white and British, he would be lauded as the second coming.

 

[Champagne Football]

I defended Pogba for 3 seasons on here when others slaughtered him. But his antics this season pushed me over the edge. The race thing is complete nonsense. Not since Di Maria has a player looked so disinterested and bored at Man Utd. Fergie said Pogba disrespected the club by agreeing to sign for Juventus many months before it was revealed. And here he is again years later, walking all over the club at every opportunity and trying to force a move elsewhere, without any regard as to whether Utd have to take a massive financial hit on his true value to get rid.
I'm with Souness on this one.

 

[Rozay]

I defended Pogba for 3 seasons on here when others slaughtered him. But his antics this season pushed me over the edge. The race thing is complete nonsense. Not since Di Maria has a player looked so disinterested and bored at Man Utd. Fergie said Pogba disrespected the club by agreeing to sign for Juventus many months before it was revealed. And here he is again years later, walking all over the club at every opportunity and trying to force a move elsewhere, without any regard as to whether Utd have to take a massive financial hit on his true value to get rid.
I'm with Souness on this one.

That’s a very specific conclusion you have drawn. Would be very interested to hear how you arrived at it.

 

[Bwuk]

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[laughtersassassin]

I defended Pogba for 3 seasons on here when others slaughtered him. But his antics this season pushed me over the edge. The race thing is complete nonsense. Not since Di Maria has a player looked so disinterested and bored at Man Utd. Fergie said Pogba disrespected the club by agreeing to sign for Juventus many months before it was revealed. And here he is again years later, walking all over the club at every opportunity and trying to force a move elsewhere, without any regard as to whether Utd have to take a massive financial hit on his true value to get rid.
I'm with Souness on this one.

Did Snacho do City dirty leaving for playing time in your opinion? He proved he was ready once he left.

Same thing Pogba did to us. Instantly started for Juve and proved we should have gave him the minutes. Not a single thing wrong with backing yourself. Not one.

Not to say what Fergie did was wrong. It's understandable that he thought Pogba was just being too confident but at the end of the day Pogba was proved correct. Just like Sancho.

 

[milemuncher777]

Souness said it jokingly. Weird to see Pogba fanboys getting riled up over it.

 

[The Boy]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Top quality post, too many criticise Pogba because they have different view of what is acceptable and what is not. This should be posted at least once a week to remind us all of that.

 

[laughtersassassin]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Might be one of if not the best and most sensible posts I have ever read on the caf. Disproportionate was a great way to describe it.

Well said man.

 

[Green_Red]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

I'm sure you're making your observations from a good place but I think generalizing about how black people are perceived by a particular age group or ethnic group is in and of itself racist.

There are hundreds of examples of white players whose attitude towards training, drinking, gambling, bling bling life style, etc. has been called out by people. Literally hundreds mate. It's not racist to call someone out on their professionalism, regardless of what/how you perceive the comments to be directed. Didnt Keane call out Rooneys behaviour when he was getting involved at the WWE, was that racist?

You will always find the answers to the questions you ask.

 

[laughtersassassin]

I'm sure you're making your observations from a good place but I think generalizing about how black people are perceived by a particular age group or ethnic group is in and of itself racist.

There are hundreds of examples of white players whose attitude towards training, drinking, gambling, bling bling life style, etc. has been called out by people. Literally hundreds mate. It's not racist to call someone out on their professionalism, regardless of what/how you perceive the comments to be directed. Didnt Keane call out Rooneys behaviour when he was getting involved at the WWE, was that racist?

You will always find the answers to the questions you ask.

But then surely you admit to compare excessive drinking and gambling to being a happy person who gets haircuts and dances and has fun with his family as being equally disruptive to a footballers careers is the most absurd notion of all time.

 

[Rozay]

[

But then surely you admit to compare excessive drinking and gambling to being a happy person who gets haircuts and dances and has fun with his family as being equally disruptive to a footballers careers is the most absurd notion of all time.

Precisely. The point is, Rooney genuinely HAS, at times, been unprofessional. Sterling and Pogba, not really. Just ‘inappropriate’, by a standard that enough middle-aged white guys believe is inappropriate, so therefore it is.

 

[2 man midfield]

I think if Wayne Rooney was black, that WWE thing would have caused bigger ructions. I mean, the club couldn't buy a goal at the time, Van Gaal was on the verge of being sacked, and our misfiring captain was dicking around play-acting. Yes, he's a United legend who could back up the hype on the pitch, but he's been unprofessional as hell several times throughout his career. How many times has he been caught out on the lash, pissing up against a wall, shagging around, etc? Has he been granted leeway through his status/performances? Definitely. It's obviously complicated, and race is by no means the only factor here, but he's got away lightly compared to some others. If Pogba did that now, it would not go down well at all.

 

[RUCK4444]

TBF I don’t think Pogba was even having a dig at Souness in what he said.

It’s entirely possible that a lad from France wasn’t aware of Souness as a player especially when he played before his time.

Same goes for me, I know of him but only because I’ve been force fed information about Liverpool’s glory days from older relatives/friends.
I doubt Pogba would have had the same when he was a kid (lucky b@stard)

 

[El Jefe]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Give this man a medal.

 

[thepolice123]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

The famous Souness backpass. I’m sure this was what he wanted Pogba to do when he criticised Pogba for giving the ball away cheaply.

 

[tenpoless]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

What's the point of this pass anyway. Showboating!!!!!

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Pogba's comments were just fine.

 

[Shane88]

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

How the feck did people watch football with that rule?

 

[njred]

Martin O'Neil has 2. He's not on TV with his bitter Scouse mate slagging off a man with more ability in his left nut than both of them.

Errrmmm more ability? Say what you want about Souness the man. As a player he was one of if not the best midfielder in the league at the time. Pogba hasn’t come close to being the best in the league. He’s been a bust.

 

[Bwuk]

Errrmmm more ability? Say what you want about Souness the man. As a player he was one of if not the best midfielder in the league at the time. Pogba hasn’t come close to being the best in the league. He’s been a bust.

Played in differently eras but Souness was a dirty hatchet man who’d get sent off every week in the modern game.

 

[Prometheus]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

That's post of the year wrapped up in April.

 

[RUCK4444]

[


Precisely. The point is, Rooney genuinely HAS, at times, been unprofessional. Sterling and Pogba, not really. Just ‘inappropriate’, by a standard that enough middle-aged white guys believe is inappropriate, so therefore it is.

I agree and have tried to make the same point previously when discussing Pogba.

The sheer fact people let themselves be ‘disgusted’ with him and want rid of a player who has been by far our best and most creative player without a SINGLE genuine footballing reason speaks volumes to me.

Ive posted before that, to me at least, there has been an altogether more unsavoury undertone to the overall treatment of Pogba since the player arrived.

 

[BlackBen]

For me, just to weigh in on the race conversation from above, I find these sorts of comments having more of a racial undertone than most.

I was watching Joe Hart’s podcast a while ago and he said there was a thing in the game growing up that you ‘can’t trust a black goalkeeper’. It was rarely said explicitly, but the point of it, he said, was that coaches saw them as too ‘erratic/unserious’ or something of that nature for such a role. Two much clown-like.

This question of attitude to the game always lies below the surface for black players. I don’t think many people of a certain British generation are simply ready for a young black millionaire. The things we like, the personality we have, directly contradicts the things they, in all their wisdom, have concluded is ‘sensible’ or a reasonable interest for a young man. The clothes we like, they have decided is too loud, the music we like is not real music, our dancing is too clowny etc. When in the spotlight, it doesn’t take long before headlines like ‘bad boy’ and ‘bling bling’ etc are used. As far as they are aware, you look like the rappers their kids watch on MTV.

The amount of time I have heard about ‘Pogba’s social media activity’. What does that even mean? He posts nothing offensive on social media. People should check themselves if they think there is a problem with dancing, wearing bright clothes, jewellery etc - and even more so if they feel they can glean an insight to your dedication and determination from it.

The other day, Sancho, Rashford and Kyle Walker were on the front of The Sun with the headline ‘twerking from home’, because they were on Tory Lanez’ Instagram Live where girls were twerking.They posted laughing emojis in the comments. As did Scott McTominay and Jack Wilshere, but they were not mentioned.

All of those ‘he supported this player who was black’ is missing the point massively. There are many black players or people who do not confront you with their ‘blackness’. There are those who due to their tastes or exposure etc operate within the confines that these people have concluded is ‘normal’. He drives a modest car. He dresses like the rest of us. He likes the same sort of girls. He talks like us, doesn’t use the same slang etc. There were many black footballers from eras gone by whose behaviour is not stereotypically ‘black’. There were a few whose was, like Andy Cole for example, who was also slapped with the attitude problem stick, and frankly has his achievements massively overlooked. In today’s game, with the money and exposure, you have plenty of young, rich black players who are now overtly ‘black’ - and almost all of them from what I gather is greeted with disapproval. They go to rap concerts, they like to dance, they do their hair certain ways, jewellery etc, they connect with their African or Caribbean roots. Then you have the Neville’s or Sounesses who feel they are qualified to draw the line as to when that stuff is ‘too much’, or ask what they feel is an honest question of whether they can possibly concentrate on being a professional footballer and get their hair cut every week etc.

Ultimately, our personalities, interests etc are not in keeping with ‘normal’, and in their own words, ‘people wouldn’t mind so much if you deliver on the pitch every weekend’, but you shouldn’t be yourself if you struggle to do that. Maybe you can post a video of you petting your Golden Retriever - that is relatable and on the list of what is normal. Dancing in your front room with your brother? Too much.

One of my biggest issues with Pogba is the off-field complaints get gets are largely direct attacks on who he simply is, which come from his background and culture, and have been used to paint him as an unserious footballer. Of course, the things on the pitch, either way, will be seen as confirmation of that. A poor pass or loss of the ball will spark a long talk about his ‘concentration and attitude’, while his many good games are ‘see, you can see what he can become if he just applies himself’.

The fact that Pogba can post a video dancing in his living room and a Sky Sports presenter could show/mention it to Souness or Keane with a ‘Graeme, have you seen this video, I’m sure you’ll love it’ as a joke tells it’s own story. It’s a non-story. Yet even on Redcafe, the amount of times I’ve read ‘I’m not saying it’s necessarily wrong, but he should be sensible enough to not do it’ regarding Pogba is a problem. He is not required to be who Souness or Caf poster x thinks he should be. Why is the conversation on Sky Sports never ‘why do we have a problem with his hair or dancing?’. Just because everyone in the room all agrees does not validate it at all.

Some will say, ‘it’s not about his hair etc, I just have an issue with him giving the ball away’ or whatever they feel his footballing deficiencies are. The point is, that isn’t true. The complaining about loss of possession is massively disproportionate to the actual losing of possession. If all the complaints were simply about football, you simply couldn’t be talking about one of the best few midfielders in the country. Pogba, as he is now, not when he learns to cut x or y out his game, but right now - is better than almost every midfielder in England. You would not think that at all based on the press he gets, both on here and in the media. We could of course, choose to discuss areas for improvement, nothing wrong with that. But the point is, there are a lot more positives to discuss even from a solely footballing perspective than weaknesses, and would be the case if he were white British. He gives the ball away less than people who do not get criticism for giving the ball away, for example. It’s clearly personal, and the personal stuff is likely based on conclusions drawn on a personality that you likely don’t understand at all. The more recent stuff with Raiola has now provided the perfect cover, and it’s easier to now say it is all on that.

Well said, great post.

 

[Acole9]

This is getting really embarrassing now. That put your medals on the table comment was proper cringe.