"Great teams are built from the back"
- Thread starter SmashedHombre
- Start date
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Nik (@Rood) and Imran (@Annihilate Now!) discuss United's fantastic win away against Athletic Club in the semi-final of the Europa League.
They also pick out the positives of United's 4-3 loss away at Brentford, and Nik reviews a day out at Old Trafford watching Manchester United Women qualify for the Champions League.
This pretty much kills the OP's optimism.
These things are not mutually exclusive. Back when Fergie signed Vidic and Evra we had Giggs, Rooney, Scholes and a young Ronaldo. We were also much closer to competing for 1st or 2nd place in those seasons we didnt win. Not comparable at all.
Good teams are built in many ways.
Perhaps 10 years back. Football has evolved now, Pep has used midfielders as defenders many times in his career as his idea of defence is keeping the ball.
Midfielders and attackers are much more important than defenders in the modern game and most teams concentrate on those areas first and foremost. Van dijk is probably the only defender in recent years that is being considered for awards otherwise it's always midfielders or attackers for a reason.
Midfielders and attackers are much more important than defenders in the modern game and most teams concentrate on those areas first and foremost. Van dijk is probably the only defender in recent years that is being considered for awards otherwise it's always midfielders or attackers for a reason.
I'm a big believer of that too.
It's not been the window many wanted or expected. But, it could have been worse. We addressed what was truly needed - a centre back and a right back. Got a bargain winger. I wanted a central midfielder and Sancho too, but oh well.
This is season, we'll have a much better back four that will concede far less goals. Defenders who can play from the back. This might change how the midfield operates.
As much as I'm annoyed that we didn't replace Herrera, I'm glad we're going in giving McTominay (and hopefully Gomes) chances. Greenwood will be there too. Martial and Rashford might have a those breakthrough seasons.
Pereira might come of age too. Many central midfielders normally start coming of age at 24/25 onwards anyway.
This could be coming of age season that might get us between third to fifth.
We can take the feedback from the coming season and fill the gaps.
I have a feeling we will be going all in on Sancho next year.
It's not been the window many wanted or expected. But, it could have been worse. We addressed what was truly needed - a centre back and a right back. Got a bargain winger. I wanted a central midfielder and Sancho too, but oh well.
This is season, we'll have a much better back four that will concede far less goals. Defenders who can play from the back. This might change how the midfield operates.
As much as I'm annoyed that we didn't replace Herrera, I'm glad we're going in giving McTominay (and hopefully Gomes) chances. Greenwood will be there too. Martial and Rashford might have a those breakthrough seasons.
Pereira might come of age too. Many central midfielders normally start coming of age at 24/25 onwards anyway.
This could be coming of age season that might get us between third to fifth.
We can take the feedback from the coming season and fill the gaps.
I have a feeling we will be going all in on Sancho next year.
Great teams all behave like a cohesive unit, in attack and defence. This is the main common trait in all successful teams(teams performing better than their individual abilities predicts them to do).
And this can be from coaching, intelligent players and having a mutual understanding of how to play.
Many teams can defend as a team, some can attack as a team, few can do both as a team.
Makelele yeah. That would be acceptable ! He’s one of the best 6 your team has ever seen and same for France !
Except Liverpool spent £150m on a GK and a CB, bought TAA through at RB and Robertson through at LB to replace Mignolet, Matip, Moreno and Clyne....all of which made a HUGE difference.
Pep has spent £150m net on FBs alone. As well as two CBs for a combined £110m.
The benefits are two-fold. First and foremost, you are not going to win every game 4 or 5 nil even witu a great attack. There will be plenty of games you have to scrape 1-0.
Secondly, one of the problems Utd had last season (and Liverpool/City had previously) was that they would be in control of a game and then.....BOOM...one attack...one goal from the opposition. Suddenly panic sets in, the opposition bunker down in their own half and the game becomes twice as tough
It was inflated a little bit with the 5-5 last match day against WBA, no? Our defence in 12/13 was pretty damn good since DDG, Rio and Rafael were in team of the season.
True. And it always is, ultimately.
Still, there's plenty of truth to the statement when applied to a certain kind of team. Fergie's last great team, for instance, did rely on having an absolutely first rate defence.
We did have a brilliant forward line which would've won games on its own regardless - but the bread and butter of that vintage wasn't Ronaldo (or Rooney, Ronaldo, Tevez) - it was the Vidic/Rio partnership in front of Van Der Sar (and good to great fullbacks to complete the package).
I have not said you don't need a good defence to be a great team or win titles. The OP suggest great teams are created by first sorting out the defence. I am saying that is a myth. Great teams do not have to be built from the back.
Imo, this is another myth we have no metric to test if it is true or not but people just generally accept cause Fergie said it.
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If you have no metric to test it, then you can't say it is a myth. All of the trophy winning teams have some of the best defences. That is not a myth. You can't win trophies if you are leaking goals at the back.
Great OP.
I do worry if shaw gets injured. All that investment and we'd still end up with young at LB.
I do worry if shaw gets injured. All that investment and we'd still end up with young at LB.
I think the mental aspect of scoring a goal to take the lead and how it affects game management thereafter can be underestimated.
Go a goal down and it's recoverable, go two down and you're in big trouble, and so often conceding is going to result in an element of caution/reservedness occurring somewhere that will alleviate pressure on the attacking team.
For example the finals against Barcelona, looking ahead of that game, notwithstanding Messi, much of their dominance was built on the Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets carousel and the outball of Alves. Both games we started pretty explosively with the intention of an early goal, and a workrate level that wouldn't be able to sustain, but I believe that had we scored it would've resulted in either two things happening:
1. Busquets dropping deeper or sitting deeper in attacking phases with the effect of increasing proximity to Xavi and Iniesta for the carousel meaning longer passes resulting in more time for us to react/reshuffle/move across the pitch etc and hopefully intercept, or:
2. The carousel remains intact but Alves checks his runs, doesn't maraud forward quite as often/to the same degree, thus reducing the outball threat, or at least meaning he's receiving the ball 20 yards deeper, and we have more time to react/move across the pitch.
Basically get the early goal and create a cagey affair for 60mins, where one aspect of the opposition sits deeper for fear of conceding on the counter, with that player hoping that the attacking players can get them back into the game. After 60 mins or so, time pressures means would have to be more adventurous again, and obviously importance of game plays a part in this too; Barcelona less likely to worry as much in a league game where could afford defeat compared to a CL Final.
But I think that was Fergie's thinking at the time, just execution wasn't there.
As an aside pride came into it too; if it was a semi-final, wonder if he would've just set us out in a deep block, but for the final he wanted more spectacle, which played into their hands really.
So to summise, a strong defence is great but without a regular goal threat, they're just going to come under a lot of pressure.
Go a goal down and it's recoverable, go two down and you're in big trouble, and so often conceding is going to result in an element of caution/reservedness occurring somewhere that will alleviate pressure on the attacking team.
For example the finals against Barcelona, looking ahead of that game, notwithstanding Messi, much of their dominance was built on the Xavi/Iniesta/Busquets carousel and the outball of Alves. Both games we started pretty explosively with the intention of an early goal, and a workrate level that wouldn't be able to sustain, but I believe that had we scored it would've resulted in either two things happening:
1. Busquets dropping deeper or sitting deeper in attacking phases with the effect of increasing proximity to Xavi and Iniesta for the carousel meaning longer passes resulting in more time for us to react/reshuffle/move across the pitch etc and hopefully intercept, or:
2. The carousel remains intact but Alves checks his runs, doesn't maraud forward quite as often/to the same degree, thus reducing the outball threat, or at least meaning he's receiving the ball 20 yards deeper, and we have more time to react/move across the pitch.
Basically get the early goal and create a cagey affair for 60mins, where one aspect of the opposition sits deeper for fear of conceding on the counter, with that player hoping that the attacking players can get them back into the game. After 60 mins or so, time pressures means would have to be more adventurous again, and obviously importance of game plays a part in this too; Barcelona less likely to worry as much in a league game where could afford defeat compared to a CL Final.
But I think that was Fergie's thinking at the time, just execution wasn't there.
As an aside pride came into it too; if it was a semi-final, wonder if he would've just set us out in a deep block, but for the final he wanted more spectacle, which played into their hands really.
So to summise, a strong defence is great but without a regular goal threat, they're just going to come under a lot of pressure.
The same goes for attack. So imo, one can't just decide which one wins titles. I think great teams have reasons for being great. So e are defence dome are attack. So, I go back to OP. Great teams don't have to be built from the back.
Not checked but I'm pretty sure the team that scored the most goals each season has won the PL more often that the team that conceded the least.
Not necessarily. We have won trophies where our attack was poor, but our defence was solid. We won the FA cup and Europa league under 2 different managers when our defence was solid, but attack was poor.
So yes, you need a solid defence to win trophies, and it is certainly not a myth.
Hardly, Chelsea did not when they last won the league, nor did Leicester IIRC.
To be clear, I am not saying attack is not important, but that you need a solid defence as a base.
Somehow this reminded me that Barca easily beat us in the 2009 Champions League final with guys like Sylvinho and Yaya Touré featuring in defense for them that night
But yeah sure, there haven't been that many truly great or succesful teams who didn't have some great defenders.
But yeah sure, there haven't been that many truly great or succesful teams who didn't have some great defenders.
Liverpool wern't top 2 until they signed VVD and Allison.
In 1993/1994 we did the double using only 14 players for the vast majority of the season. This is my personal favourite United team of all time because it was a perfectly balanced 4-4-2. Below is "how it was built".
October 1981 - Robson
November 1986 - Ferguson becomes manager
July 1987 - McClair
December 1987 - Bruce
May 1988 - Hughes
June 1988 - Sharpe
August 1989 - Pallister
September 1989 - Ince
June 1990 - Irwin
March 1991 - Giggs*
March 1991 - Kanchelskis
August 1991 - Schmeichel
August 1991 - Parker
November 1992 - Cantona
July 1993 - Keane
*League debut
Dublin made the highest number of appearances after these 14 players, 1 start (4 as sub).
October 1981 - Robson
November 1986 - Ferguson becomes manager
July 1987 - McClair
December 1987 - Bruce
May 1988 - Hughes
June 1988 - Sharpe
August 1989 - Pallister
September 1989 - Ince
June 1990 - Irwin
March 1991 - Giggs*
March 1991 - Kanchelskis
August 1991 - Schmeichel
August 1991 - Parker
November 1992 - Cantona
July 1993 - Keane
*League debut
Dublin made the highest number of appearances after these 14 players, 1 start (4 as sub).
Chelsea or Leicester had neither the lowest conceded or most goals scored that season.
In the last 10 years the top scorers have won the league 7 times, the lowest conceded 3 times (2 of those City were both top scorers and lowest conceded).
Maybe scoring for fun but also conceding for fun as well .. Neither City or Liverpool under their current managers became title contenders until they had signed defenders and a keeper . Keep clean sheets you have a great chance of winning titles
Yeah but signing Van Dijk, then Alisson and the emergence of TAA turned the team from top four contenders to league contenders and Champions League winners.
Before Van Dijk started playing, they conceded 28 goals in 23 games.
The rest of that season they conceded 10 goals in 15 games.
The whole of last season they conceded 22 goals (16 fewer than in 2017/18). That is what turned them into title contenders rather than them scoring five more goals than they did the season before.
Liverpool and City seemed to get their attack sorted before working on improving their defence. We seem to be doing the opposite which will probably be a mistake as we'll end up with more draws than victories but we'll see.
Firstly, I am not a big fan of this slow and gradual piece by piece building of side because in today’s environment top performing players will not remain committed to a project unless they see the results soon. Any rebuild has to happen within 1.5 years, otherwise you would be looking at a never ending rebuild.
Secondly, a title winning side needs to have at-least a solid defence and a world class attack backed by a good midfield. It doesn’t matter where you start, the finished product has to have 2 world class areas and one competent functional area. Having said that, I think getting a side to have a fluid attack and score goals is a bit more difficult than building a great defence, therefore I would have preferred that we started up top like Klopp’s Liverpool.
Secondly, a title winning side needs to have at-least a solid defence and a world class attack backed by a good midfield. It doesn’t matter where you start, the finished product has to have 2 world class areas and one competent functional area. Having said that, I think getting a side to have a fluid attack and score goals is a bit more difficult than building a great defence, therefore I would have preferred that we started up top like Klopp’s Liverpool.
The exact point I am trying to make.
In the past six years, we've had periods where we were solid defensively and we were still shit. What we never been good at is attacking. So in my mind, it's a bit of a stretch to say we need to sort out our defense before we sort out the attack. I have not said one are is less important.
Even Moyes (shudder) said something along the lines of first we need to keep them out during his time at United.
We do look to have a decent back line now though so time will tell.
We do look to have a decent back line now though so time will tell.
I think that a decent back line covers any deficiencies of an poor or average attack better than a decent attack covering the deficiencies of a poor defence.
43 conceded goals isn't good. The attack (RvP) won the title that season, not the defence. United had the 5th/6th best defence, behind City, Chelsea, Arsenal and...Everton and on par with Liverpool.
38 goals conceded before the last match day.
RvP did his part, but we effectively sealed the title by March. It was all stats padding after that and our league performance suffered further after that CL tie against Real when players didn’t have anything to play for.
If Maguire hits the ground running as well we Lindelof continuing on from last season then we’ve arguably got a centre back pairing as good as any in the league. You add to that Wan-Bissaka being one of the best full backs in the league and Shaw being our best player last season and we’ve got a potentially very good back four or even five if De Gea regains form.
We need quality additions with a defensive midfielder, a playmaker, a right sided attacker and another striker and then we could be in a position to start challenging consistently for trophies again.
We need quality additions with a defensive midfielder, a playmaker, a right sided attacker and another striker and then we could be in a position to start challenging consistently for trophies again.
Given the outcome of the previous season, we didn't take lightly the games before we actually won the title. Defence wasn't damn good that season, not all. DDG did wonders to prevent more goals. I remember games which we won despite conceding tons of chances.
In our best PL season pts wise, we had a great attack (97 goals) and average defence (45 conceded).
Agreed, @Damien. Barca, Madrid, City and Livepool are winning trophies recently because of their devastating attack. Their defence are pretty good, but you ask people what those teams are famous for? It's their attack.
It's the same with United under SAF. We had good defence. But we were remembered as a team with resilience wave of attack to win games.
I don't know of why people easily forget this.
It's the same with United under SAF. We had good defence. But we were remembered as a team with resilience wave of attack to win games.
I don't know of why people easily forget this.
They had Puyol, Dani Alves, Rafael Marquez, Abidal, Pique and Busquets back then! Victor Valdes was crucial to the way Guardiola had them playing as well. Most teams would have been lucky to have a back four of Dani Alves, Marquez, Puyol and Abidal back then. If you would ask Mourinho, he'd probably tell you how crucial Cech, Terry, Carvalho and Cole were.
It's pretty simple.
No team has won the league with a weak defence and an amazing attack.
Plenty have won it with amazing defences and not great attacks.
Again, anyone who has watched more football then they have spent playing certain videogames will know this.
It's why Barca can sign Neymar, Griezmann, and whoever else they want to partner Messi and Suarez but they'll lose every time they play a real top defence due to the fact that as a defensive unit, they are weak.
No team has won the league with a weak defence and an amazing attack.
Plenty have won it with amazing defences and not great attacks.
Again, anyone who has watched more football then they have spent playing certain videogames will know this.
It's why Barca can sign Neymar, Griezmann, and whoever else they want to partner Messi and Suarez but they'll lose every time they play a real top defence due to the fact that as a defensive unit, they are weak.
But the team that scores the most goals is more likely to win the league than the team that concedes the least.
There’s a saying in the NFL that rings true here.
Offence wins games, defence wins championships.
While obviously the truth is a mixture of both, good offensive teams are wishy washy.
If we can rely on our defence to do the jobs it takes the pressure off the front boys.
Offence wins games, defence wins championships.
While obviously the truth is a mixture of both, good offensive teams are wishy washy.
If we can rely on our defence to do the jobs it takes the pressure off the front boys.
In football, draw only give you 1 pts, win 3 pts. So offence win games, defence wins championship?? I'm not sure what this saying means.
United under Sir Alex won the League not by winning against 'big teams' but putting sword into smaller teams. And as we know, the key against smaller teams is not great defence, but great attack.
Smashed!!