Film Hannibal (Carthage)

[the_cliff]

So Denzel is paying Hannibal ?
North Africans will not be happy about this. (I'm half North African)

 

[Irwin99]

Cleopatra was most likely white-ish though, how pale is debatable. Her lineage is Macedonian Greek with plenty of inbreeding on her father’s side, the only possibility for a darker skin tone comes from her mother’s side with her maternal grandfather being Mithridates, and even then he or the concubine who he fathered Cleopatra’s mother on were very unlikely to be sub Saharan dark skinned.

It’s much less contentious with Hannibal, because while the Carthaginians were Semitic in origin, they didn’t have anywhere near the discrimination against more native inhabitants like the Ptolemaic Greeks and you can feasibly argue that through intermarriage, Hannibal could have a darker skin tone than his ancestors. Of course, that’s still stretching historical fact a bit to fit artistic license, but it’s not ‘my grandma told me Cleopatra was black’ kind of artistic license.

Well their closest neighbours were the Libyans who I believe were also fair(er) skinned and who they largely subjugated but yeah i don't think they were quite as bad as the Greeks when it came to a sense of superiority; their entire armies were composed of multi-ethnic mercenaries so they had to get along.

So Denzel is paying Hannibal ?
North Africans will not be happy about this. (I'm half North African)

That's the disappointing thing for me, is that it seems to open up a can of worms and it does seem a bit insensitive to Africans who aren't black. It'd be pretty racist to characterize every European as northern European in the same way as it would to say every North African is black. Artistic licence is fine but sometimes the implication just feels very clumsy, especially after how upset a lot of Egyptians were about the Cleopatra debacle.

 

[the_cliff]

Well their closest neighbours were the Libyans who I believe were also fair(er) skinned and who they largely subjugated but yeah i don't think they were quite as bad as the Greeks when it came to a sense of superiority; their entire armies were composed of multi-ethnic mercenaries so they had to get along.


That's the disappointing thing for me, is that it seems to open up a can of worms and it does seem a bit insensitive to Africans who aren't black. It'd be pretty racist to characterize every European as northern European in the same way as it would to say every North African is black. Artistic licence is fine but sometimes the implication just feels very clumsy, especially after how upset a lot of Egyptians were about the Cleopatra debacle.

To be honest I think Denzel is a fantastic actor and I personally wouldn't mind but considering how North Africans are in general and how proud they are of their history and heritage their will definitely be backlash. Hannibal, Jugurtha, Masinissa etc. are all revered in North Africa (Due to their stories and conquests with or against the Romans) and till now many kids are named after them (We have one playing for us right now).

It is a can of worms as you say because the majority of the world (Sub Saharan Africa included) view us as Arab invaders that have come from the Middle East and were not indigenous to the land of North Africa when in fact, the majority of North Africans are a berber/Phonecian hybrid and the reason Africa is even named Africa.

 

[Spoony]

Hollywood's already pissed of Egyptians
I suspect it comes down to ignorance more than anything.

Anyway he was of semetic origin like the vast majority of North Africans(they've been there for 20,000 years and mixed with migrants from West Asia - Levant and then Arabisation). Basically The Carthaginians/Punic people were a mixture of Phoenicians and local semetic proto Berbers/Iberomaurisian.

 

[Red in STL]

Hollywood's already pissed of Egyptians
I suspect it comes down to ignorance more than anything.

Anyway he was of semetic origin like the vast majority of North Africans(they've been there for 20,000 years and mixed with migrants from West Asia - Levant and then Arabisation). Basically The Carthaginians/Punic people were a mixture of Phoenicians and local semetic proto Berbers/Iberomaurisian.

Hollywood has pissed off just about everyone over the years, it has little to do with ignorance and almsot everything to do with $$$$

 

[Sky1981]

I had a day of relaxation planned when I came across this. My plans were flanked and routed by your tactical link-sharing. Thank you!

Welcome. They always amazed me when one tactical cavalry error can wipe the whole army

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

?

??

 

[Rooney in Paris]

??

What was funny?

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

What was funny?

The thing I highlighted.

 

[Red in STL]

??

Hey we have a question mark thread

or did I read it incorrectly??

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

Hey we have a question mark thread

or did I read it incorrectly??

 

[Rooney in Paris]

The thing I highlighted.

As you're being voluntarily obtuse about it - what about Zendaya being cast as Cleopatra is funny?

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

As you're being voluntarily obtuse about it - what about Zendaya being cast as Cleopatra is funny?

Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse

 

[poleglass red]

I'll be keen to watch this with some fava beans and a nice chianti, pfft, pfft, pfft, pfft, pfft,

 

[Shakesy]

I'm loving the renewed interest in historical epics. Apparently a Cleopatra movie is in the works too with Zendaya allegedly cast to play her.

The Hannibal movie should be at least 2.5 hrs imho bc it's a lot of story to tell.

?

??

What was funny?

The thing I highlighted.

As you're being voluntarily obtuse about it - what about Zendaya being cast as Cleopatra is funny?

Yeah, I'm the one being obtuse

A truly riveting read. Whatever will happen next?

 

[Rooney in Paris]

A truly riveting read. Whatever will happen next?

I dunno what he's being weird about! He obviously thought it was important enough in the first place to post a green emoji about it.

 

[Hoof the ball]

Hannibal is probably the greatest general of antiquity (debatable but in terms of sheer intelligence there's very few that match his tactical brilliance) but I predict we'll be having a repeat of the Cleopatra outrage with Tunisians being particularly unhappy if a black actor is playing the North African general. A bit tiresome that those debates will rage again.

I hope they show the ambush at Lake Trasimine which must be the greatest ambush in history-far greater in my opinion than Teutoburg Forest which took a lot longer to execute and the battle of Cannae is one of the greatest use of military tactics of all time, still studied to this day.

It's absolutely astonishing that Rome was able to hold for sixteen years and finally beat him

Thus entered Scipio Africanus.

Alexander the Great was the greatest. Scipio, Caesar and Hannibal all stan'd Alexander. Hard.

 

[Shakesy]

I dunno what he's being weird about! He obviously thought it was important enough in the first place to post a green emoji about it.

I hope he answers. The story needs a conclusion

 

[Red in STL]

I'll be keen to watch this with some fava beans and a nice chianti, pfft, pfft, pfft, pfft, pfft,

I'm sure the CAF will be tuning in to see our Tunisian star حَنِّبَعْل المجبري

 

[Rooney in Paris]

I hope he answers. The story needs a conclusion

Quivering in anticipation

 

[Hoof the ball]

So Denzel is paying Hannibal ?
North Africans will not be happy about this. (I'm half North African)

Yep. Carthaginians were Phoenician. Semitic. Spoke Caananite.

I'm not saying filmmakers have to do everything spot on, but is anyone really trying?

If they did a film about the Nubian wars with Egypt and cast Aamir Khan as the lead character of the Nubian's it'd be just as daft.

 

[Shakesy]

Quivering in anticipation

I'll have to bait him before he pulls a George R.R. Martin on us

 

[Shakesy]

So. I hear Zendaya might play Cleopatra @Norman Brownbutter

 

[Irwin99]

Thus entered Scipio Africanus.

Alexander the Great was the greatest. Scipio, Caesar and Hannibal all stan'd Alexander. Hard.

The battle of Zama with Scipio is crazy, from Hannibal's gamble with the war elephants to the 3 lines fighting each other successively. Really hope they do it justice in the film.

 

[Cheimoon]

So. I hear Zendaya might play Cleopatra @Norman Brownbutter

She's also in Dune eh. She likes desert environments I guess. Is that why you casted cast her for Cleopatra, @Norman Brownbutter?

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

I dunno what he's being weird about! He obviously thought it was important enough in the first place to post a green emoji about it.

Man, this is such a fun game. The cold winter nights must just fly by...

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

She's also in Dune eh. She likes desert environments I guess. Is that why you casted her for Cleopatra, @Norman Brownbutter?

I think you mean "cast". As there's no such word as "casted".

 

[Mr Pigeon]

Maybe Denzel is only playing Old Hannibal, and the younger version is being played by Kenneth Branagh? That would avoid any issues.

In Christopher Nolan's latest masterpiece, Denzel Washington is HANNIBAL - the quick witted, bouncy haired wonderkid from the Manchester Reds. When he discovers a football that transports him to Carthage, he must find a way to build an air pump out of elephants before the football explodes - destroying not just the world he knows but the world he doesn't know. Featuring Kenneth Branagh as Labinnah, the ball and Bruno Fernandes. Guest appearance from Michael Caine as Marcus Rashford.

 

[sebsheep]

Maybe Denzel is only playing Old Hannibal, and the younger version is being played by Kenneth Branagh? That would avoid any issues.

In Christopher Nolan's latest masterpiece, Denzel Washington is HANNIBAL - the quick witted, bouncy haired wonderkid from the Manchester Reds. When he discovers a football that transports him to Carthage, he must find a way to build an air pump out of elephants before the football explodes - destroying not just the world he knows but the world he doesn't know. Featuring Kenneth Branagh as Labinnah, the ball and Bruno Fernandes. Guest appearance from Michael Caine as Marcus Rashford.

This bit is pure nonsense tbh

 

[Red in STL]

Maybe Denzel is only playing Old Hannibal, and the younger version is being played by Kenneth Branagh? That would avoid any issues.

In Christopher Nolan's latest masterpiece, Denzel Washington is HANNIBAL - the quick witted, bouncy haired wonderkid from the Manchester Reds. When he discovers a football that transports him to Carthage, he must find a way to build an air pump out of elephants before the football explodes - destroying not just the world he knows but the world he doesn't know. Featuring Kenneth Branagh as Labinnah, the ball and Bruno Fernandes. Guest appearance from Michael Caine as Marcus Rashford.

For the American audience you need Sly Stallone and for South America Ossie Ardiles

 

[Cheimoon]

I think you mean "cast". As there's no such word as "casted".

You learn something every day!

...except why you have that Zendaya poster on your wall...

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

You learn something every day!

...except why you have that Zendaya poster on your wall...

To hide the Tom Holland poster...

 

[Slevs]

Never knew Hannibal was Phoenician (lebanese), and I've played both Rome Total War games and consider myself a bit of a history geek

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

Never knew Hannibal was Phoenician (lebanese), and I've played both Rome Total War games and consider myself a bit of a history geek

Why do you think the Romans called it the 'Punic' wars?

Another interesting thing is the famed double flanking movement into encirclement of Cannae didn't originate with Hannibal. The Carthaginian navy used it in the battle of Cape Ecnomus (still the largest naval battle in history in terms of men involved, if you accept the historical accounts) but failed to envelop the Roman fleet and was defeated piecemeals in separate engagements, so with the same strategy, Carthage failed dismally at sea (their expertise compared to Rome) while succeeded gloriously on land (Rome's strong point). The wars were filled with little ironies like that, as also plenty of parallels, chiefly the political meddling at the home front that stymied frontline generals, leading to defeat (Hamilcar in Sicily, Fabius (of Fabian's strategy renown) for Rome the first time, Hannibal in Italy).

Also, in the debate about greatest generals in history, Asian generals are conspicuously missing. Nearly half a century before Cannae, Bai Qi already successfully completed an army envelopment that lead to the annihilation of the enemy army at the battle of Changping, killing, capturing and executing 400,000 men, over a terrain stretching dozens of kilometers. Yet due to the Western centric world we live in, all we commonly hear about is Alexander, Hannibal and Caesar.

 

[Shakesy]

I think you mean "cast". As there's no such word as "casted".

"Casted" is catching on though. Saxọ̄̆nlī changende

 

[Slevs]

Why do you think the Romans called it the 'Punic' wars?

Another interesting thing is the famed double flanking movement into encirclement of Cannae didn't originate with Hannibal. The Carthaginian navy used it in the battle of Cape Ecnomus (still the largest naval battle in history in terms of men involved, if you accept the historical accounts) but failed to envelop the Roman fleet and was defeated piecemeals in separate engagements, so with the same strategy, Carthage failed dismally at sea (their expertise compared to Rome) while succeeded gloriously on land (Rome's strong point). The wars were filled with little ironies like that, as also plenty of parallels, chiefly the political meddling at the home front that stymied frontline generals, leading to defeat (Hamilcar in Sicily, Fabius (of Fabian's strategy renown) for Rome the first time, Hannibal in Italy).

Also, in the debate about greatest generals in history, Asian generals are conspicuously missing. Nearly half a century before Cannae, Bai Qi already successfully completed an army envelopment that lead to the annihilation of the enemy army at the battle of Changping, killing, capturing and executing 400,000 men, over a terrain stretching dozens of kilometers. Yet due to the Western centric world we live in, all we commonly hear about is Alexander, Hannibal and Caesar.

This is so intersting.
I'd love to go out for a beer or two with you and just listen to this stuff.

 

[InfiniteBoredom]

This is so intersting.
I'd love to go out for a beer or two with you and just listen to this stuff.

Thanks.

I'd recommend Mike Duncan's History of Rome podcast (available for free on Youtube, among other platforms), sans reading academic works or primary sources, it's probably the best source both in terms of accessibility and depth to learn about Rome for the average person (and he definitely has a a sexier voice than mine )

 

[R'hllor]

So Denzel is paying Hannibal ?
North Africans will not be happy about this. (I'm half North African)

Gee wonder why

 

[Tarrou]

Couldn’t give a flock what they look like, it’s a movie ffs

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

So Denzel is paying Hannibal ?
North Africans will not be happy about this. (I'm half North African)

Denzel will portray Hannibal as a jazz-loving hepcat who wears a fedora. It’s going to be a modern spin on an old classic. it’s going to be a vibes thing not a history thing.