That's what I was trying to say earlier, what are the rules? And have I been doing it wrong for the last 40 years?
Has political correctness actually gone mad?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
It’s bit of an odd one. As per @villain above, there’s a discussion to be had about changing your physical appearance to mimic the physical appearance that black people have no choice about e.g. big lips, dreds, tanned skin (although last one didn’t make sense to me at all) Similarly, it’s probably a bit iffy to appropriate traditional clothing that comes from a different heritage to your own.
I’m really struggling to understand the issue when it comes to choosing to wear, for example, clothes associated with modern phenomena like hip hop culture. It seems insanely pedantic to accuse white music artists of cultural appropriation in that context. We all know that hip hop culture has has predominantly black origins but it’s not some sort of closed shop. Might as well say white pop musicians shouldn’t make music at all, considering how many influences in modern music come from black culture.
You don't have a strong opinion on it because you most likely haven't spent your life hearing about all of your 'white' features(i'm assuming you're white, if not, then this post makes no sense
), I'm sure you can understand that if you had, maybe you would feel differently? It's very easy to be objective with no subjective experience.No, I'm not white.You don't have a strong opinion on it because you most likely haven't spent your life hearing about all of your 'white' features(i'm assuming you're white, if not, then this post makes no sense
Agreed that sometimes things can't be judge by objective lens. Maybe i'm just numb to what "entertainers" would do to get attention.
She has the original artist(P Diddy)appear in the music video. The criticisms in here all seems like a massive stretch tbh. The most annoying thing about is it's another nostalgia era tune and there's one part in the video where she is on a tennis court with golf club!
Most of these cultural appropriation arguments are shite imo as it tends to create a fixed radicalised groups but from a progressive liberal end.
Is this an 'Always Sunny...' reference?!
It's an honest question (I've never seen Always Sunny "
Jonathan Pie sums up my feelings on cultural appropriation pretty nicely
No fan of that show would use that reference, probably the worst episode ever made.
I feel like this conversation is beginning to delve into the extremes and routing off course, which it often does when it comes to political correctness and the perspectives of marginalised communities. And a part of me wants to talk about it in depth to help those of you who don't understand but want to - but another part of me is utterly exhausted at having to expand energy & labour to express such a personal perspective to people who ultimately will never have any idea of what it's like to be a black woman in society, only to have those perspectives reduced to and laughed off as hyperbole every time. It's exhausting & infuriating in equal measure.
Here is a video of Jesy sometime in the last few days, she's a shade or two lighter than the presenter who's actually black.
Here's a picture of Jesy without any tans for reference (sorry for the size)
I fail to see how her 'tan' can be deemed as anything other than excessive & unnecessary.
Nobody is stopping her from doing it, but surely she can be criticised for benefitting from picking & choosing parts of a culture she is not from originally?
Ask any black woman whether their features have been mocked and made fun of throughout their life and the overwhelming answer will be 'Yes'.
Those same features are being bought as part of a buy 1 get 1 free special at every plastic surgeon by non-black women, and they continue to represent symbols of beauty both in a historical eurocentric beauty standard (skinny, white, blonde hair, blue eyes etc), and a modern day 'kim kardashian' (darker skin, bigger lips, curvy body, bigger butt etc) beauty standard.
This is how black features get praised when they are not on black people - leading to erasure of black women from the topics of beauty standards, because we can't conform to the traditional eurocentric beauty standard, and even when our features are being praised and celebrated, that praise only comes when they appear on non-black women.
That's where the pushback comes from. Black women have had to create beauty standards of our own because of racism, have been excluded from just about every mainstream conversation when it comes to beauty, also because of racism, yet when the standards that we've created do become mainstream & celebrated - it's only due to it being picked up by non-black women, you guessed it - because of racism.
Surely you can see why that would cause people to be upset? It just reaffirms that there's no space for black women to be celebrated.
If black features on black skin was celebrated and seen as beautiful, then blackfishing wouldn't be an issue.
From that hopefully you can see why 'whitefishing' isn't really a thing, in the same way 'reverse racism' isn't really a thing.
Agree, or disagree - I don't really have the patience to debate the topic much further, because it's kinda dehumanising & exhausting, and i'm not trying to be a dick when I say that, it's just hard to express just how tiring it is having to validate your feelings & experiences repeatedly.
And anyone who is genuine about wanting to be educated on the topic can find smarter, more articulate people who have spoken at length about these issues online and in books.
@Isotope @2 man midfield @Pogue Mahone
Here is a video of Jesy sometime in the last few days, she's a shade or two lighter than the presenter who's actually black.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Here's a picture of Jesy without any tans for reference (sorry for the size)
I fail to see how her 'tan' can be deemed as anything other than excessive & unnecessary.
Nobody is stopping her from doing it, but surely she can be criticised for benefitting from picking & choosing parts of a culture she is not from originally?
Ask any black woman whether their features have been mocked and made fun of throughout their life and the overwhelming answer will be 'Yes'.
Those same features are being bought as part of a buy 1 get 1 free special at every plastic surgeon by non-black women, and they continue to represent symbols of beauty both in a historical eurocentric beauty standard (skinny, white, blonde hair, blue eyes etc), and a modern day 'kim kardashian' (darker skin, bigger lips, curvy body, bigger butt etc) beauty standard.
This is how black features get praised when they are not on black people - leading to erasure of black women from the topics of beauty standards, because we can't conform to the traditional eurocentric beauty standard, and even when our features are being praised and celebrated, that praise only comes when they appear on non-black women.
That's where the pushback comes from. Black women have had to create beauty standards of our own because of racism, have been excluded from just about every mainstream conversation when it comes to beauty, also because of racism, yet when the standards that we've created do become mainstream & celebrated - it's only due to it being picked up by non-black women, you guessed it - because of racism.
Surely you can see why that would cause people to be upset? It just reaffirms that there's no space for black women to be celebrated.
If black features on black skin was celebrated and seen as beautiful, then blackfishing wouldn't be an issue.
From that hopefully you can see why 'whitefishing' isn't really a thing, in the same way 'reverse racism' isn't really a thing.
Agree, or disagree - I don't really have the patience to debate the topic much further, because it's kinda dehumanising & exhausting, and i'm not trying to be a dick when I say that, it's just hard to express just how tiring it is having to validate your feelings & experiences repeatedly.
And anyone who is genuine about wanting to be educated on the topic can find smarter, more articulate people who have spoken at length about these issues online and in books.
@Isotope @2 man midfield @Pogue Mahone
Whaaaaaat?! I think it's a belter.
Bit more than a tan based on the video above. She’s heading into Rachel Dolezal territory there.
Mind you, it does sound like she has some sort of dysmorphia. More deserving of pity than a pile-on IMHO.
You are donkey-brained.
They're actually literally Caucasian, from Armenian descent.
( I realize the word caucasian also sometimes gets used as a synonym for white)
Kardashian is an Albanian name. So that side is definitely Caucasian.
Though, Indians are Caucasian, so Caucasians can have a tan.
I think it's a little ignorant of history for someone to claim anyone adopting hip-hop style automatically qualifies as "cultural appropriation."
Many of the original graffiti artists were from different races (IE Tracy 168, Crash Matos, Keith Haring, Lady Pink). Breakdancing itself borrowed heavily and evolved from Brazilian Capoeira, etc. Hiphop absolutely has a heavy black American heritage but it's never been exclusively black American. People that get into hip-hop around the world are not "appropriating culture", they are joining a subculture that speaks to them. When someone is legit into hip-hop and has legit claims (Eminem) then no one really believes it appropriation. It's only when it comes off as completely fake and pushed by corporate marketing (Vanilla Ice) that it can veer into controversial territory. After all, you have hip-hop artists around the world from China to Brazil to Russia.
Many of the original graffiti artists were from different races (IE Tracy 168, Crash Matos, Keith Haring, Lady Pink). Breakdancing itself borrowed heavily and evolved from Brazilian Capoeira, etc. Hiphop absolutely has a heavy black American heritage but it's never been exclusively black American. People that get into hip-hop around the world are not "appropriating culture", they are joining a subculture that speaks to them. When someone is legit into hip-hop and has legit claims (Eminem) then no one really believes it appropriation. It's only when it comes off as completely fake and pushed by corporate marketing (Vanilla Ice) that it can veer into controversial territory. After all, you have hip-hop artists around the world from China to Brazil to Russia.
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Ah yes, I was mixing it up with white.
Short video on explaining the historical difference between caucasians(More from the Balkans) and white(Europe) for anyone struggling.
wait till you find out how many millions they’ve made appropriating black culture.
Fun fact: many, many Armenians do not view themselves as "white" which they view as purely European and they have also experienced many historical insults deriving from ethnic aspects of their appearance. Oh and many Armenians naturally have darker skin (than Europeans), curvier body types, and bigger butts so not sure Kardashians are really a sound example of "appropriating" culture.
I'm well aware that these feck nuggets are very rich. Part of why I'm not entirely in favor of democracy, the popularity of the Kardashians.
Anyone else read this in Pitbull's voice
Dale!
Gah. Bollox.
Agree with this. I've never looked at her and thought she's looks black. She looks ethnically Persian which isn't a surprise given that she's from Armenian heritage.
I saw today there is a massive electronic billboard advert at the Holland Park/Shepherd's Bush roundabout that has is looping adverts for her new single with a Black Lives Matter ad, then some random one, which raised an eyebrow when I saw it.
Holy shit, that’s a bit beyond a tan and a few braids. She’s gone way over the top there.I feel like this conversation is beginning to delve into the extremes and routing off course, which it often does when it comes to political correctness and the perspectives of marginalised communities. And a part of me wants to talk about it in depth to help those of you who don't understand but want to - but another part of me is utterly exhausted at having to expand energy & labour to express such a personal perspective to people who ultimately will never have any idea of what it's like to be a black woman in society, only to have those perspectives reduced to and laughed off as hyperbole every time. It's exhausting & infuriating in equal measure.
Here is a video of Jesy sometime in the last few days, she's a shade or two lighter than the presenter who's actually black.
Tweet
— Twitter API (@user) date
Here's a picture of Jesy without any tans for reference (sorry for the size)
I fail to see how her 'tan' can be deemed as anything other than excessive & unnecessary.
Nobody is stopping her from doing it, but surely she can be criticised for benefitting from picking & choosing parts of a culture she is not from originally?
Ask any black woman whether their features have been mocked and made fun of throughout their life and the overwhelming answer will be 'Yes'.
Those same features are being bought as part of a buy 1 get 1 free special at every plastic surgeon by non-black women, and they continue to represent symbols of beauty both in a historical eurocentric beauty standard (skinny, white, blonde hair, blue eyes etc), and a modern day 'kim kardashian' (darker skin, bigger lips, curvy body, bigger butt etc) beauty standard.
This is how black features get praised when they are not on black people - leading to erasure of black women from the topics of beauty standards, because we can't conform to the traditional eurocentric beauty standard, and even when our features are being praised and celebrated, that praise only comes when they appear on non-black women.
That's where the pushback comes from. Black women have had to create beauty standards of our own because of racism, have been excluded from just about every mainstream conversation when it comes to beauty, also because of racism, yet when the standards that we've created do become mainstream & celebrated - it's only due to it being picked up by non-black women, you guessed it - because of racism.
Surely you can see why that would cause people to be upset? It just reaffirms that there's no space for black women to be celebrated.
If black features on black skin was celebrated and seen as beautiful, then blackfishing wouldn't be an issue.
From that hopefully you can see why 'whitefishing' isn't really a thing, in the same way 'reverse racism' isn't really a thing.
Agree, or disagree - I don't really have the patience to debate the topic much further, because it's kinda dehumanising & exhausting, and i'm not trying to be a dick when I say that, it's just hard to express just how tiring it is having to validate your feelings & experiences repeatedly.
And anyone who is genuine about wanting to be educated on the topic can find smarter, more articulate people who have spoken at length about these issues online and in books.
@Isotope @2 man midfield @Pogue Mahone
I definitely get why black people would feel pissed off at this sort of thing. I guess it’s a bit like - and bear with me - if you were denied entry to a club, so decided to go off and start your own thing, but then later on those same people got wind of what you were doing, gatecrashed the party, took all your decorations and booze and fecked off back to their club - before getting lots of praise from other clubbers about this amazing club and it’s new decorations. All while you sit there livid because you’ve been wronged not once but twice.
To be fair I guess it’s a sign of white privilege that the only reference point I can come up with is some shit nightclub analogy, but hopefully you see my logic. You’d definitely feel like telling Jesy Nelson to do one, anyway.
Haha I definitely get your logic and it's not a terrible analogy all things considered because something similar is precisely how a lot of black culture began, and why there's stuff like "black history month", "black entertainment television" etc. If you continue to exclude us from things, we then have to make our own space to feel safe & celebrated. If you then come back and infiltrate those spaces we've made and we say something about your actions, the onus is on us to be the bigger person and allow it.
In the case of blackfishing it gets to a point where as black women there's so much we already have to navigate in society, that when the few things we have get co-opted as the work of others, or is seen positively only when others do it - it's just utterly demoralising.
The fact that I can type something like 'the kim kardashian blueprint' and everyone who reads it knows exactly what I mean & just how popular & common it is, when all she did was accentuate features black women have naturally yet there's no celebration of that look when it's on black skin. It's gotten completely whitewashed, pun intended.
The more I think about it, cultural appropriation can be illustrated up by the movie Bring It On.
It's a great movie too, which also touches on sexploitation of women's bodies and sexism that male cheerleaders face, plus it's just funny.
Now I wanna watch it.
It's a great movie too, which also touches on sexploitation of women's bodies and sexism that male cheerleaders face, plus it's just funny.
Now I wanna watch it.
Black men didn’t create that stereotype though, it’s the media that created the perception that
wearing durags and baggy clothes somehow makes you a ‘bad boy’. That’s part of the reason why people are pissed off, she’s reinforcing this shallow stereotype without having to suffer the same scrutiny that black artists face.
AJ Tracey, a black rapper had similar optics in his video and was accused of glorifying gang culture. You can’t see the issue with the double standards?
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www....ire-show-interview-with-aj-tracey-2447967?amp
https://www.eonline.com/news/130564...atory-to-refer-to-extraterrestrials-as-aliens
I wish Demi Lovato would just feck off.
I wish Demi Lovato would just feck off.
No, it's music, a performance...I just can't connect with the idea that it's a big issue. If it is problematic I don't think it's something to be focussing much time on.
Easy to say when it doesn’t impact you. Ignorance is indeed bliss.
But who is it impacting? Where is the evidence this has any impact of any sort? To me it just seems like a load of fuss over nothing. You could even paint 'blackfishing' as a positive celebration of black culture.