Has the cult of Rashford become more important than the player?

[Berbasbullet]

I expect him to be a really really good player for us (which he already is) but I don't know why people are so hard on him and expect him to be an elite player like Rooney and Ronaldo were. His private life has no impact on his performances on the pitch.

That performance in the EL is something I've seen Giggs do quite a few times in his career (2007 FA cup final springs to mind) where just nothing comes off. It happens sometimes. On a side note, and without descending into Ole/Glazer bashing mood, he's kinda been run into the ground in the past two years; playing with that back injury against Wolves last season was just...

Nailed it, expectations are insane and I hope we get Sancho so Rashford can get some rest.

Honestly for me he’s the player I’m most proud of, what he has accomplished on and off the pitch is brilliant, hope he stays his entire career with us.

 

[Tom Van Persie]

Why do people talk absolute nonsense when there is easily accessible evidence of their nonsense, here is what SAF think about Rashford's off the field activities.

Tweet

— Twitter API (@user) date

Imagine trying to compare Rashford's selfless charity work to the Beckham circus.

Fergie would 100% be behind Rashford if he was manager. You lot need to stop making up lies. Fergie is a proud Labour man.

 

[big rons sovereign]

He would have because it's effecting his football. SAF doesn't like outside activities. To him it's only Manchester United and Manchester United only.

I'm sure Sir Alex Ferguson, a staunch socialist, would've been furious that one of his players was helping to feed poor kids.
Furious.

 

[Dante]

-Who does he compare favourably to?
“Him”
-Him?
“STOP MOVING THE GOALPOSTS!”

I don’t get why people’s own suggestions are infuriating to them.

How good is Rashford in the grand scheme of things? A top 100 player in the world? Top 50? Top 20?

 

[stw2022]

What the heck is going on in here now. Rashford's stats aren't as good as Salah or Ronaldo which proves he's shit. Something like that yeah?

I asked who he compares favourably to when they were same age or had same level of experience.

Others suggested Zidane, Henry and Ronaldo among others then got angry about it.

I find the comparison absurd as you do but they weren’t my examples

 

[0le]

Player	Games	Goals	Assists
Rashford (up to 20/21)	285	93	56
Bale (up to 13/14)	292	83	89
Robben (up to 08/09)	298	58	55
Zidane (up to 98/99)	324	61	36
Iniesta (up 09/10)	312	24	57
Rooney (up to 08/09)	315	114	59
Ronaldo (up to 08/09)	323	123	75
Henry (up to 01/02)	308	111	31

Rashford is ahead of Robben, Zidane, Iniesta and Henry. And although he's behind Bale, Rooney and Ronaldo he's comparable enough to be in the conversation.

Top post, both for effort and content.

 

[JPRouve]

I asked who he compares favourably to when they were same age or had same level of experience.

Others suggested Zidane, Henry and Ronaldo among others then got angry about it.

I find the comparison absurd as you do but they weren’t my examples

Who got angry after @Dante's post?

 

[stw2022]

How good is Rashford in the grand scheme of things? A top 100 player in the world? Top 50? Top 20?

For me I’m not sure. He’s probably not much beyond a rotation option at top CL level with clubs regularly challenging for titles. I could see him being a regular starter if you drop a level from that. Whether that makes him top 100 or not I can’t do the maths

 

[roonster09]

On the top of my head there is Aubameyang, Salah or Schweinsteiger. I would be tempted to mention Klose and Drogba.

Griezmann - Finished season with Sociedad
Lewandowski - Finished second season, 13 G+A and 42 G+A
RVP - Played 3 seasons with Arsenal, with 11 league goals or 13 goals overall being his highest tally
Mane - Southampton player
Salah - Was on loan tour to Serie A clubs
KdB - First great season at Wolfsburg
David Villa - Was Zaragoza player.
Van Dijk - Celtic player
Mahrez - Championship player
Gnabry - Moved to Bayern and scored 10 goals in his first season, before that was on loan tour

Few more players, there are still so many players to name but I think this is more than enough. Suarez was still at Ajax or moved to Liverpool at Rashford's age.

 

[united_99]

He’s still at the bottom of that list while regularly competing deep into the Europa league vs players doing it in the CL or more regularly in the PL. I always see these stats and think it’s strange to bring them up to some show he’s a top player but he’s misunderstood. They show that he’s clearly in the level below and with the lowest work rate out of any player listed by some distance. Yes he’s the youngest player on the list but if this is him close to peaking we are in trouble if we continue to be so reliant on him.

Also Spurs x 2
Liverpool x 2

Do you think this unfit looking Rashford is going to help get any of his team mates onto a list like this? These days any chance a team mate has dies when Rashford gets on the ball

So not only have you made it your top priority to create some imaginary scenario in which Rashford is not good while all our other attackers are and all that nonsense, but you can‘t even keep your word. Only last Saturday after another of your hysterical novel about Rashford you wrote this:
„This is genuinely my last post on Rashford until next season.“
Genuinely you are obsessed with discrediting him.

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

I think there is a good player in there somewhere, but the status he is getting here of an irreplaceable player or someone who would never be substituted or first name on the team sheet, he is nowhere close to that level. In fact before last season where Martial tanked plenty of people were of the opinion that Martial had more to his game than him and if given a choice, he shall be preferred but I won't get into it.

Furthermore, I believe England has soo much talent in their side, I honestly believe the likes of Sancho, Foden, Mount and Grealish and far better options (at LW, CAM and RW) than him at this stage and England would be better off giving him a summer off to get his surgery done and get himself fit for next season, rather than trying a half fit player who is stinking up the place (shades of Rooney in 2006).

 

[JPRouve]

Griezmann - Finished season with Sociedad
Lewandowski - Finished second season, 13 G+A and 42 G+A
RVP - Played 3 seasons with Arsenal, with 11 league goals or 13 goals overall being his highest tally
Mane - Southampton player
Salah - Was on loan tour to Serie A clubs
KdB - First great season at Wolfsburg
David Villa - Was Zaragoza player.
Van Dijk - Celtic player
Mahrez - Championship player
Gnabry - Moved to Bayern and scored 10 goals in his first season, before that was on loan tour

Few more players, there are still so many players to name but I think this is more than enough. Suarez was still at Ajax or moved to Liverpool at Rashford's age.

The club they were playing for isn't that meaningful, for example I would say that Griezmann and Villa were better than Rashford. Villa was already a top player at Zaragoza.

 

[roonster09]

The club they were playing for isn't that meaningful, for example I would say that Griezmann and Villa were better than Rashford. Villa was already a top player at Zaragoza.

Yeah I agree with that.

 

[Withnail]

Who got angry after @Dante's post?

Nobody... If it wasn't apparent by now he's trolling

 

[stw2022]

I think there is a good player in there somewhere, but the status he is getting here of an irreplaceable player or someone who would never be substituted or first name on the team sheet, he is nowhere close to that level. In fact before last season where Martial tanked plenty of people were of the opinion that Martial had more to his game than him and if given a choice, he shall be preferred but I won't get into it.

Furthermore, I believe England has soo much talent in their side, I honestly believe the likes of Sancho, Foden, Mount and Grealish and far better options (at LW, CAM and RW) than him at this stage and England would be better off giving him a summer off to get his surgery done and get himself fit for next season, rather than trying a half fit player who is stinking up the place (shades of Rooney in 2006).

He is a good player but for some of us after 300 senior appearances, even if he is 23, whilst he can improve it’s improbable he’s going to progress much beyond ‘good’

It’s just a case of how some of us disagree as to his likely development from this point forward.

 

[Ali Dia]

So not only have you made it your top priority to create some imaginary scenario in which Rashford is not good while all our other attackers are and all that nonsense, but you can‘t even keep your word. Only last Saturday after another of your hysterical novel about Rashford you wrote this:
„This is genuinely my last post on Rashford until next season.“
Genuinely you are obsessed with discrediting him.

Which you didn’t reply to. Still waiting for that

I’m obsessed with us getting better. I can’t wait till Sancho has him out of our best team. It’s going to be so nice to watch the attack tick as a 3 again instead of some set up where it feels like Rashford and his numbers are more important than the club he plays for actually playing good football and winning stuff.

 

[roonster09]

Who got angry after @Dante's post?

Nobody... If it wasn't apparent by now he's trolling

Yeah, loves to argue against imaginary points

 

[Hugh Jass]

I think he is a terrific player, but he is only at 80/85 percent. If he was at 100% both in terms of concentrating on football, not being injured and having a rest, he would be unreal.

Some posters go mental when he has a bad game. But sometimes he has a poor enough game and still gets a goal or assist, which is the mark of a top player. I just personally think he could be unreal if he concentrated on his football only.

 

[KM]

Yeah, loves to argue against imaginary points

/waits for another passive aggressive post/

 

[Fahad Jawaid]

He is a good player but for some of us after 300 senior appearances, even if he is 23, whilst he can improve it’s improbable he’s going to progress much beyond ‘good’

It’s just a case of how some of us disagree as to his likely development from this point forward.

Exactly. The way he is portrayed in the media as if he is the second coming of Ronaldo and he actually thinks the same tbf, he has started to have that arrogance on the field similar to Ronaldo (lack of tracking back or jogging and not pressing, taking pot shots from distances etc), without half his talent, which pisses me off big time, he needs to remain humble and improve so many facets to his game which are still lacking such as dribbling in tight space, passing ability, crossing, first touch etc, which are all areas where his bottom level is of a pub player.

 

[stw2022]

Who got angry after @Dante's post?

Not referring to that post but I asked for examples, got them then was accused of moving the goalposts.

I disagree with the comparisons, or many of them, but the goalposts are still in the same place

 

[Dante]

For me I’m not sure. He’s probably not much beyond a rotation option at top/CL level. I could see him being a regular starter in you drop a level from that. Whether that makes him top 100 or not I can’t do the maths

Well, here's the list of the most productive players in Europe across all the top leagues:

Rank	Player	Age	Club	Goals	Assists	Total
1​	Robert Lewandowski	32​	Bayern Munich	48​	8​	56​
2​	Kylian Mbappé	22​	Paris Saint-Germain	42​	11​	53​
3​	Erling Haaland	20​	Borussia Dortmund	41​	12​	53​
4​	Lionel Messi	33​	FC Barcelona	38​	14​	52​
5​	Harry Kane	27​	Tottenham Hotspur	33​	17​	50​
6​	Bruno Fernandes	26​	Manchester United	28​	17​	45​
7​	Gerard Moreno	29​	Villarreal CF	30​	11​	41​
8​	Cristiano Ronaldo	36​	Juventus FC	36​	4​	40​
9​	Romelu Lukaku	28​	Inter Milan	30​	10​	40​
10​	Karim Benzema	33​	Real Madrid	30​	9​	39​
11​	André Silva	25​	Eintracht Frankfurt	29​	10​	39​
12​	Heung-min Son	28​	Tottenham Hotspur	22​	17​	39​
13​	Thomas Müller	31​	Bayern Munich	15​	24​	39​
14​	Mohamed Salah	28​	Liverpool FC	31​	6​	37​
15​	Luis Muriel	30​	Atalanta BC	26​	11​	37​
16​	Michael Liendl	35​	Wolfsberger AC	17​	20​	37​
17​	Marcus Rashford	23​	Manchester United	21​	15​	36​
18​	Jadon Sancho	21​	Borussia Dortmund	16​	20​	36​
19​	Wout Weghorst	28​	VfL Wolfsburg	25​	9​	34​
20​	Memphis Depay	27​	Olympique Lyon	22​	12​	34​
21​	Ciro Immobile	31​	SS Lazio	25​	8​	33​
22​	Duván Zapata	30​	Atalanta BC	19​	14​	33​
23​	Antoine Griezmann	30​	FC Barcelona	20​	12​	32​
24​	Álvaro Morata	28​	Juventus FC	20​	12​	32​
25​	Lars Stindl	32​	Borussia Mönchengladbach	17​	15​	32​
26​	Andrej Kramaric	29​	TSG 1899 Hoffenheim	25​	6​	31​
27​	Wissam Ben Yedder	30​	AS Monaco	22​	9​	31​
28​	Lautaro Martínez	23​	Inter Milan	19​	11​	30​
29​	Lorenzo Insigne	29​	SSC Napoli	19​	11​	30​
30​	Johannes Eggestein	23​	SV Werder Bremen	20​	9​	29​

It's quite a tight table, so despite being 17th Rashford really isn't far behind. And if you take away Bruno's 13 penalties this season, he'd be comfortably number 1 at United too.

Of the players in this list, only Haaland, Mbappe, Silva, Sancho and Lautaro and Eggestein are in the same age range. If Rashford is on course to be one of the 6 best players of his generation, that would easily good enough.

 

[JPRouve]

Not referring to that post but I asked for examples, got them then was accused of moving the goalposts.

I disagree with the comparisons, or many of them, but the goalposts are still in the same place

Because you moved the goalposts, the facts are that Rashford is in the same ballpark than pretty much all past 23 years old top players. Now it doesn't mean that he will match their prime but it's baffling that anyone would ignore the facts attached to his career.

 

[Dante]

Not referring to that post but I asked for examples, got them then was accused of moving the goalposts.

I disagree with the comparisons, or many of them, but the goalposts are still in the same place

Is there any way to make a valid comparison without it being a trigger to your cult-like opinions on Rashford?

Objective stats and figures didn't seem to work for you. Which means that when you asked for examples of players to compare to Rashford, you did so with the expectation that no possible evidence could convince you to change your mind. That's a textbook case of setting up goal posts and then shifting them after the fact.

 

[stw2022]

/waits for another passive aggressive post/

.....

Imagine thinking you know about football and then saying James Maddison is the better footballer

United fans are morons. You can see some of the posters in this thread for examples too.

good job genius.

Alright weirdo, calm down.

Christ

Thought we had an age restriction on this forum?

I’m wounded

 

[roonster09]

/waits for another passive aggressive post/

This place is so toxic

 

[tjb]

This is a logical suggestion. Spending 90 million on a position which already has a pivotal player when other areas are significantly weaker is completely unjustified. If the Saudis ran United than this type of approach is more acceptable but that's not the reality. Why are fans concerned about Grealish with brain fart centre halfs, no outstanding right sided attacker and a 'hope for the best' midfield duo which is depleting the teams overall qualities.

I do agree however to this applying to many youth players having already seen suggestions to not buy player X in favour of Diallo's development but there's a clear distinction between a youth player and an established first team member.

See this is where I disagree. I think Bruno needs creative support. I think both Grealish and Sancho offer that. I do think that Cm and Cb need signings, but I also feel we are at that point where we are close enough to make that big push. In the low block games we struggle in currently, I believe that sancho/grealish will give us that extra creativity we need to break those teams down. I'm also of the belief that Greenwood will be better come next season and he is the future of United, not Rashford and should therefore be given as many games as possible. I order to do that, I don't think Rashford is reliable enough to be the more senior wing partner since Greenwood is young and may still have those inconsistencies. For me, he should be in a spot where his performances in comparison to Sancho/Greenwood/Cavani should be what determines if he plays. It's OK to have a James or VDB behind Bruno because he's reliable, Rashford isn't at that level yet.

Just to clarify, I don't believe this is his peak, I still think he can grow. However, I don't think he'll ever be rooney level, which is fine. For me, he can become a Mane...a player who is insanely valuable. However he's not there yet and we shouldn't hold off on better players for that potential.

 

[rumac]

Okay what player who went on to become a top player wasn’t as good as Rashford is now in the year they turned 24.

Appearances or age up to you. Comparing him unfavourably to others is apparently grossly unfair so who do some want to compare him favourably to given his age or experience?

Surely finding someone isn’t difficult. Pick anyone.

At the same age Ryan Giggs had scored 63 goals for Man United, playing a similar position in a much better team.

Giggs was also brilliant at times and inconsistent.

 

[Maticmaker]

but it's hard to understand why anyone would have problem with what Rashford did. fecking hell, he is making sure there are millions of kids who are fed daily and he is playing even when he is injured.

Its not a problem what he's doing I doubt anyone resents that at all, its the effect , if any, it has on his playing career. Also playing through injury is fine when you are turning in great performances, but just lately Marcus has not been anything like in his 'match winning' form and that means he's taking up a place someone else may do better with!
Ole is crucial in this, does he insist on Marcus playing even though carrying an injury, or does he accept when he asks Marcus are you ok to play and the lad says yes, because he doesn't want to let anyone down or risk losing his place? Does Ole go along with that and say well if he tells me he's ok then he plays?
Its not what players do in their private lives, whether its the valuable work Marcus does or the more frivolous escapes with fashion etc. its the distraction it causes to their playing that counts.
SAF may well applaud Marcus because of his political beliefs , but when he was manager he would have taken a more critical look at whether Marcus's external activities were having a reaction on the pitch.

 

[stw2022]

At the same age Ryan Giggs had scored 63 goals for Man United, playing a similar position in a much better team.

Giggs was also brilliant at times and inconsistent.

Fair enough but for my money Giggs was a vastly superior player both when he reached same age and Rashford’s current number of appearances

 

[united_99]

Which you didn’t reply to. Still waiting for that

Reply? I have already discussed Rashford a lot with you and read your nonsense posts about him. There‘s really nothing to add. You are doing exactly in terms of Rashford what the other poster was doing in one of the Cavani threads, where he was questioning Cavani‘s contributions and you and me were defending him. In that thread antohan actually made the effort and listed the points won from all our attacking players this season in the league. As you were in that thread I am sure you have seen it (but unsurprisingly chose to ignore it). Antohan’s post clearly showed that Rashford’s contributions this season have only been behind Bruno’s and ahead of everyone else. It also shows for example that Greenwood despite getting a lot of game time only started contributing in the last few months.
But there is no point arguing with someone who ignores evidence like this as well as the stats provided by posters in this thread.

Whereas proper facts such as writing several times in the same thread „Mark my word, James will have a better Euros than Rashford“ is the real evidence we all need.
Does it get more childish than that? I can picture you watching England games and actually hoping Rashford doesn’t perform well so you can write again here about him.
Based on your posts so far you will write anyway. Either „didn’t do anything“ or „as always, just the goal/assist“.

So now your turn. Why have you not kept your word on what you said on not posting again about Rashford until next season?
This as well as most of your posts on Rashford show that you can’t be taken seriously on anything Rashford related.
But yeah, keep copy pasting the same crap every single day, seems to be your favourite hobby.

 

[Withnail]

.....










I’m wounded

Were any of those actually directed at you?

 

[Ali Dia]

Reply? I have already discussed Rashford a lot with you and read your nonsense posts about him. There‘s really nothing to add. You are doing exactly in terms of Rashford what the other poster was doing in one of the Cavani threads, where he was questioning Cavani‘s contributions and you and me were defending him. In that thread antohan actually made the effort and listed the points won from all our attacking players this season in the league. As you were in that thread I am sure you have seen it (but unsurprisingly chose to ignore it). Antohan’s post clearly showed that Rashford’s contributions this season have only been behind Bruno’s and ahead of everyone else. It also shows for example that Greenwood despite getting a lot of game time only started contributing in the last few months.
But there is no point arguing with someone who ignores evidence like this as well as the stats provided by posters in this thread.

Whereas proper facts such as writing several times in the same thread „Mark my word, James will have a better Euros than Rashford“ is the real evidence we all need.
Does it get more childish than that? I can picture you watching England games and actually hoping Rashford doesn’t perform well so you can write again here about him.
Based on your posts so far you will write anyway. Either „didn’t do anything“ or „as always, just the goal/assist“.

So now your turn. Why have you not kept your word on what you said on not posting again about Rashford until next season?
This as well as most of your posts on Rashford show that you can’t be taken seriously on anything Rashford related.
But yeah, keep copy pasting the same crap every single day, seems to be your favourite hobby.

Touché

Plus Cavani has played 1300 minutes less and almost caught up with Rashford while comprehensively out working him. He’s a much better player to watch for my money.

 

[stw2022]

Were any of those actually directed at you?

Yes. Not sure why that matters though

 

[PSV]

Here's some stats I quickly threw together (transfermarkt) showing total games (80% of games):

Players involved in 80% or more games:
2008-09:    Sir Alex    66 (53)    Vidic (55) - O'Shea (54) - Ronaldo (53)
2009-10:    Sir Alex    56 (45)    Evra (51) - Valencia (49)
2010-11:    Sir Alex    60 (48)    Nani (49) - Evra (48)
2011-12:    Sir Alex    54 (43)    Evra (47) - Rooney (43)
2012-13:    Sir Alex    54 (43)    RVP (48) - Carrick (46)
--
2013-14:    Moyes       55 (44)    DDG (52) - Evra (45) - Valencia (44)
2014-15:    van Gaal    44 (35)    DDG (43) - Rooney (37) - Mata (35) - Valencia (35)
2015-16:    van Gaal    59 (47)    Blind (56) - Smalling (55) - Mata (54) - DDG (49) - Martial (49)
2016-17:    Mourinho    64 (51)    Rashford (53) - Pogba (51)
2017-18:    Mourinho    56 (45)    Rashford (52) - Lukaku (51) - Matic (49) - Lingard (48) - Smalling (46) - DDG (46) - Martial (45)
2018-19:    Mou/Ole     53 (42)    DDG (47) - Pogba (47) - Rashford (47) - Lukaku (45)
2019-20:    Ole         61 (49)    Maguire (55) - Greenwood (49)
2020-21:    Ole         61 (49)    Fernandes (58) - Rashford (57) - AWB (54) - Greenwood (52) - Maguire (52) - McTominay (49)

He has featured in 80% or more of our games for 4 out of the last 5 seasons, the only reason he didn't make it last season (he had 44 of 61) was that he was out injured for about 15 games. In 2017-18 he even missed three of the games to suspension.

Honestly I think we're tearing him down. Could end up like Owen. There seems to be some sort of shift towards playing the same players most games. We need to trust our squad more.

 

[Withnail]

Yes. Not sure why that matters though

From what I can see a good few where in relation to another poster or general points.

It matters because you said you were wounded.

 

[Stormpetrel]

I honestly can’t see him getting significantly better than this,and i honestly can’t see him reaching the level of someone like a Wayne Rooney.
As a supporter I felt excited to watch a young Wayne Rooney play...I feel the same excitement whenever I watch Greenwood,but Marcus isn’t someone who gives you that feeling.

Rashford not as good as Ronaldo? it's ok just move on to Greenwood and hope he become Rooney. Then if he doesn't just complain he's overrated and movon to the next one. What is it going to be? Scholes? Keane? Vidic?

Maybe people should appreciate players for who they're and not what they dreamed they would become before being concerned about their rating being affected by what they do off the pitch.

 

[stw2022]

From what I can see a good few where in relation to another poster or general points.

It matters because you said you were wounded.

It was irony given it followed the poster publicly pre-emping my “passive-aggressive” reply. I should have waited and quoted the guy who agreed and then accused this place of being toxic

Clearly insults are fine if you’ve the post count to back it up

 

[Ali Dia]

Yes. Not sure why that matters though

Sancho Cavani Greenwood is going to be much more creative against the low block and a lot more hardworking in general. Rashford has completely played himself out of an automatic starting position at the euros, I’d say there’s a question mark about him even getting called up at this stage. That should say enough about the standard he’s set in 2021.

 

[Withnail]

It was irony given it followed the poster publicly pre-emping my “passive-aggressive” reply. I should have waited and quoted the guy who agreed and then accused this place of being toxic

Clearly insults are fine if you’ve the post count to back it up

If you think someone's out of order report them. That's how things get dealt with.