We just need to show more guts on the ball. There were several times yesterday when there were passes on to Martial through the middle but no one had the guts to take them on. Its like we're afraid to lose the ball which we shouldnt be because we've shown we can win it back. Would love to see McTominay or Pogba fire balls into Martials feet from our own half. Thats how you beat deep lying teams, cut out their midfield with through balls to the forwards.
Has the Palace result finally woken us up to reality?
- Thread starter fastwalker
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We have too many players with not enough quality in the first team. The likes of Lingard just doesn't offer enough. We are short of depth and quality off the bench.
people were saying we didn't need the likes of Bale, Dybala, Bruno Fernandes but it's now glaringly obvious that we are short of attacking talent. I appreciate the last couple of results may be 'freak results' but how many of these results does it take to be the normality?
I am a big fan of OGS but at times he does seem tactically naive and will need to wise up quickly. He has been thrown under the bus totally by the transfer policy though. United will struggle to score enough goals (especially after selling our only real goalscorer, like him or not) and our midfield struggle to create and are expecting Pogba to do too much defensively.
people were saying we didn't need the likes of Bale, Dybala, Bruno Fernandes but it's now glaringly obvious that we are short of attacking talent. I appreciate the last couple of results may be 'freak results' but how many of these results does it take to be the normality?
I am a big fan of OGS but at times he does seem tactically naive and will need to wise up quickly. He has been thrown under the bus totally by the transfer policy though. United will struggle to score enough goals (especially after selling our only real goalscorer, like him or not) and our midfield struggle to create and are expecting Pogba to do too much defensively.
He needs to get in Mata/Gomez. Martial is injured so Greenwood should come in. Fred should also start now Pogba loses the ball, needs to cut it out, as part of a midfield 3 he would have more chances to run into the box and less responsibility with defensive side.
Not too sure yesterday's result has woken us up to reality - more likely it has confirmed what many of us were already worrying about.
Let's just all agree that we've started this season in more or less the same way we ended last sason.
Let's just all agree that we've started this season in more or less the same way we ended last sason.
This, I dont expect any improvment on last season. I mean why would we improve? We are better in defence but weaker in midfield and attack.
I don't think we needed any games to wake us up to anything, our best midfielders and forwards are not going to get us top 4 barring a miracle, and we are a few injuries away from an utter disaster, but that was staring us in the face all summer, yet we did nothing to rectify it.
We also have a manger who is highly likely going to be not good enough, but has not been given the tools to prove it either way, so he has to be immune from most of the blame for whatever is about to happen.
We also have a manger who is highly likely going to be not good enough, but has not been given the tools to prove it either way, so he has to be immune from most of the blame for whatever is about to happen.
He's not good enough to win the treble. He hasnt been given enough to win a treble.
But not given enough to win more than 3 in 15? Or against crytal palace at home?
Should stop giving managers carte blanche every 1st season. Top teams changes manager like underwear and they perform.
Forget about trophies, werent most of us says we can cut him some slack if only he showed progress and vision? 8 months onwards we're still scratching our head on what's our system.
A stupid simple system does to perfection is still better than an elaborate system nobody can perform.
What is our style of play? Does it work? Hell we dont even seem to have a fix starting 11.
A 60m fullback and 80m centerback is more than most clubs can dream off. Our losses are incured against lower table clubs. What's their excuse?
We've been having results like this for over half a decade...
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You mustn't have listened to the United Hour podcast lately then. They all firmly expected 3rd or 4th at least.
I think results like yesterday will be the reality for this season at the very least. The management of the club in recent years has been ridiculously negligent. I was no fan of Lukaku but to leave him go without a replacement to come in was ludicrous and insanely short sighted. Our options from the bench when chasing the game is to bring on a 17 year old (albeit a highly regarded one) and Mata (best days behind him).
The lack of a strategy is insane. Compared with how well organised City are as a club, it’s a tough tough time for us. Sadly, I don’t think it matters who the manager is, as long as Woodward is in place, I just don’t see us doing anything positive on a consistent basis.
The lack of a strategy is insane. Compared with how well organised City are as a club, it’s a tough tough time for us. Sadly, I don’t think it matters who the manager is, as long as Woodward is in place, I just don’t see us doing anything positive on a consistent basis.
A penalty away from winning the 2 we dropped points in... very fine lines.
We deserve 7 points from the 9 imo.
We deserve 7 points from the 9 imo.
The only silver lining is that Pochetino has not gone to Madrid yet, we may still have a chance to nab him, he has the pedigree to get us playing good football and also blooding youngsters.
The point is we knew all this last season, but the Ed and the Glazers insisted on keeping him as the manager, they had ample opportunity not to, and I think most would have backed them for not doing, I for one didn't want him, and it was a crazy decision to take before the end of the season, but even then they could have thought again after we fell apart, and most would have agreed with it.
But they didn't so now it is on them, and they should have backed him with so much more this summer, basically the CB and RB were positions we should have filled last year, and now Ole has lost Herrera, Fellaini, and Lukaku without replacements, so once again we are playing catch up with the squad, there is a very strong argument to be made that the squad is now a weaker one than the one Jose spat his dummy out over.
So Ole doesn't stand a chance even if he is good enough, and I won't be blaming him at all, there is no way Ed can just boot him out like the rest and get away with it this time.
Agreed - and we have a little bit of luck in the pot for later down the line.
We don’t really have quality to win trophies but we should be able to stay in top 4 battle until the end of season. Yesterday was poor but these games will always happen when your team lacks top class talent. Our current team is very much work in progress, with a lot of issues we will have to still address.
I watched United yesterday and they were unlucky tbh. Some bad finishing (Confidence), some poor decisions by the ref, missed penalties (Hype-spotlight created by Neville)... But the basis of a good performance was there. There were things like Pogba not pulling his weight or getting frustrated and I am sure Ole will work on that and Pogba doesnt have a choice but put in nthe performances tbh, I am sure it United are going to improve over the next few games based on what I saw.
It was a fun week seeing people get so overconfident after that Chelsea game where it could have easily gone the other way. Everything that could have gone our way, did. @Wumminator created some classic threads that everyone knew will become a joke in couple of weeks. People chose to burry their hands in sand and ignore that we are still mostly clueless and absolutely toothless when attacking, especially from build up. They choose to ignore that we haven't improved in over 8 months since Ole took over and just put a blind faith in him that he is the man to turn it around. He is clearly not. We will fight for 6th again.
The reality is that we've embarked on a new strategy which needs time to bed in. We can't go out to buy a finished team as City have. We need to allow a group of younger players - either home-grown or affordable buys (a relative term given the state of the transfer market at the moment) time to develop, and support them with a few key signings.
It can work - and we'll all be happy if it pays off in two or three years. The best teams on the continent all manage to bring a decent number of players through from academy to first team. But there's no guarantee that it will work.
And we've got big problems right now. Young talent needs to be eased in and protected. Expecting a 17 year old tyro to come and save a game, as yesterday, is going to do no-one any good. The squad is too large and yet threadbare the same time - the bench must be the worst in twenty years. We've lost senior players - admittedly the likes of Fellaini and Lukaku were a bad fit from start to finish - and replaced them with nothing. If Martial is crocked after yesterday, we have no adequate replacement, which is a shocking state of affairs for a club of our stature.
It's going to be another hard season but it might be a step in the right direction. Patience will be required.
On the other hand, we may end up with exactly what you would expect of a club which has been bled by its owners for years, has appointed a string of managers with different footballing philosophies (none of the last three right for the club) and performed badly in the transfer market both in term of coherent planning and negotiating competence - i.e. be stuck exactly where we are now.
It can work - and we'll all be happy if it pays off in two or three years. The best teams on the continent all manage to bring a decent number of players through from academy to first team. But there's no guarantee that it will work.
And we've got big problems right now. Young talent needs to be eased in and protected. Expecting a 17 year old tyro to come and save a game, as yesterday, is going to do no-one any good. The squad is too large and yet threadbare the same time - the bench must be the worst in twenty years. We've lost senior players - admittedly the likes of Fellaini and Lukaku were a bad fit from start to finish - and replaced them with nothing. If Martial is crocked after yesterday, we have no adequate replacement, which is a shocking state of affairs for a club of our stature.
It's going to be another hard season but it might be a step in the right direction. Patience will be required.
On the other hand, we may end up with exactly what you would expect of a club which has been bled by its owners for years, has appointed a string of managers with different footballing philosophies (none of the last three right for the club) and performed badly in the transfer market both in term of coherent planning and negotiating competence - i.e. be stuck exactly where we are now.
I don't think we lack talent but just a little bit of maturity that will come with time.
The fact that we got back on level terms despite a whole host of strange ref decisions and a missed penalty suggests there is a great deal of belief and togetherness in this squad.
Jordan Ayew played extremely well for them. Our new defensive line is only 3 games in so I am sure they are still working on and building their relationships.
We simply should not be losing these games. There are ocassions when a team is dominant but wasteful and lose the game but they are rare and if this was one of those then I can live with that so long as it is a rarity.
Our season is going to be based on existing players improving whereas At Citeh they buy the nearly finished product which is why all of their players are 30+mil acquisitions.
I may be in the minority but I prefer our model over the one used at Citeh as for me the enjoyable part is the journey despite the bumps along the way.
Our season is going to be based on existing players improving whereas At Citeh they buy the nearly finished product which is why all of their players are 30+mil acquisitions.
I may be in the minority but I prefer our model over the one used at Citeh as for me the enjoyable part is the journey despite the bumps along the way.
Excellent post. Straight to the point. We are tying ourselves in pretzels trying to make excuses for a simple undeniable fact that we should be beating Crystal Palace at home, not making excuses for our failure to do so.
The reality was Ole was given the Utd job on a temporary basis and a new manager would be appointed this summer. The board released a public statement claiming this as the plan (and at the time there were strong hints Pochettino was going to get the job this summer).
The board then back-track on their publicly stated plan, appoint Ole permanently, lose out on Poch who at the end of the season strongly hinted he would be open to a new job this summer, continue their long reign of poor activity in the summer transfer policy and we are exactly where we have been over the last 5 seasons - playing poor football, an unbalanced squad, no clear plan, frustrated fan base. This is Utd under Woodward.
The board then back-track on their publicly stated plan, appoint Ole permanently, lose out on Poch who at the end of the season strongly hinted he would be open to a new job this summer, continue their long reign of poor activity in the summer transfer policy and we are exactly where we have been over the last 5 seasons - playing poor football, an unbalanced squad, no clear plan, frustrated fan base. This is Utd under Woodward.
Some of us have been wide awake since the tail end of last season.
We had won 3 of our last 14 games before yesterday's game.
We upgraded our defence in the summer while downgrading our midfield and attack.
Why would anyone be surprised that we'd struggle to create and score goals against teams that won't allow us to counter-attack?
The blueprint has been laid out to beating United for a long time and it will continue all season as we don't have the personnel to break down defences.
We had won 3 of our last 14 games before yesterday's game.
We upgraded our defence in the summer while downgrading our midfield and attack.
Why would anyone be surprised that we'd struggle to create and score goals against teams that won't allow us to counter-attack?
The blueprint has been laid out to beating United for a long time and it will continue all season as we don't have the personnel to break down defences.
Spot on.
You mean the game against Wolves when we had 2 shots on target as did they, & the Palace one when both of us had 3 shots on target. Five shots on target against two defensive teams like these is appalling & the reason why we are struggling. You & others can make as many excuses as possible, but with creativity like this we will never succeed.
Well articulated. May not have been backed and the squad may not be good enough to chalemege but his usage of what he does have is extremely lacking. I don't get the logic that a manager can't be expected to perform against Wolves and Palace till they've spent 200m. How do midtable teams assess their managers then? I didn't afford Jose that flimsy excuse and I'm not going to extend it to Ole either. It's not the results, it's the general performance
This is the core of the issue.
We had the same shots on target as Palace did, despite 71% possession and 22 attempts. We have no one who can work together to thread the needle in the middle.
We played Jesse Lingard as a number 10 against a team that was never going to do anything but sit back and be compact in a low block. That is unforgivable in my opinion. We have Pogba, Fred, Andreas, Mata, Gomes and even bloody Sanchez who'd be better creatively against such a setup. Instead we start the player who's only real quality is his runs into space to drag around players, essentially useless against a block with no space.
The formation made little sense really,
Substitutions made little sense too. I like Greenwood and want to see more of him, but replacing lingard with him instead of Mata or Pereira as the first real sub was so utterly stupid. The lad needs minutes but he isn't someone who's going to come on in a losing game at home and run the entire attack at this point.
If we insist on this formation then Lingard should never ever ever start against any side that isn't going to come at us. His work ethic and space clearing is fantastic against expansive sides who will play football against us but many teams will not come to Old Trafford to attack us. Burnley repeatedly and now Palace have shown its perfectly fine to nick one on the counter and then time waste and foul away the game and suffer no consequences from us or the refs. So other sides would be utter fools not to follow the blueprint as without some sort of change from Ole there is nothing we seem to be able to do about it and officials have shown that they are perfectly happy to let teams do one over us without punishment.
Yes the last two games have been decided by fine margins e.g. penalty misses, awful officiating and a fecking god tier hit by Neves. Fact is though it should never ever get to that fine a margin being the difference against Palace at home. Wolves at Molineux is forgivable as they are a quality side who've shown they are more than capable of frustrating the top sides.
OGS just needs to demote junk to reserves and play youth, as owners didn’t buy good players. We don’t have results anyway. Matic, Mata, Lingard, Young - all to reserves and transfer list. Play Garner, Gomes, Elanga, Laird, Shotetire, whoever
/thread for truth
We'd get murdered to be honest. Greenwood is our hottest prospect and he was utterly lost yesterday. We force those kids in with Ole's current plans and we probably irredeemably ruin their careers by bathing them in fire with nowhere to hide.
Yes it could magically come off in some 1/1000 scenario but realistically the lads make some silly mistakes, heads drop and we get mauled and they might never recover as players.
This sounds all wonderful on paper but it will never work. Bolton are currently using a similar tactic, in fairness one forced on them by events in the club, but the youngsters are playing & getting spanked each game. Two 5-0 thrashings in last two league games. Not their fault, but youngsters cannot just come into senior squads & perform. It just doesn't work like that. As it wouldn't playing a team for of inexperience youngsters for us.
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Yes as he was played out of position. Greenwood is not a winger - he shouldn’t play on the touchline. Full back shall run down the touchline and cross, and Greenwood - to cut inside, to play as an inside FORWARD.
And it relates not only to Greenwood - OGS likes to play many players out of position all the time.
Yeah that's true, but the fact Ole even did that adds credence to point I was making against playing the kids in the post I responded to.
If Ole can't even play a single player in the right position then the chance of him managing to thread together a squad of half unblooded youngsters and the half of our squad worth retaining into something workable with everyone where they are suited is basically nil.
Yesterday was utterly inept by Ole, yes we missed a penalty, yes the ref took a fecking dump on us but Lingard at ten against a low block and then the greenwood sub and subsequent out of position play by him were unforgivable stupidity.
This is pure delusion.
You're the same guy who used to moan about similar games under Mourinho during the early to middle parts of 2017/18. Now all of a sudden you think we played well yesterday.
I've watched it again , and there is positives to be taken, wolves away, let's be fair about it , should have won! Palace game was a game where you thought it's not happening today?
I had a feeling Rashford would miss the pen, and a feeling we would concede after getting equaliser, it was one of those games the calls off the officials the bad defending, and the ball bouncing off DDG after he blocked it, I thought it went through him at first poor keeping anyway.
Palace were in a word fortunate and they new it. Wolves the same. As for the officials in last to games it's bemusing! Wolves player should have seen 2 yellows and a red! Same yesterday Cahill on Martial , then the clear pull on Martial no Peñ!
Then in afternoon game shirt pull going away from goal gets a pen !! James yellow for simulation, and a clear take down knee high!! Is there a agenda or just really poor call. As for VAR it's rubbish as it's interpretation, if martial being pulled back trying to shoot is not clear and obvious what is ? Oles comes out and starts saying about theses calls he be vilified by press etc, so has to keep quiet, even the palace subs didn't adhere to the rules nothing done about that iether.
I had a feeling Rashford would miss the pen, and a feeling we would concede after getting equaliser, it was one of those games the calls off the officials the bad defending, and the ball bouncing off DDG after he blocked it, I thought it went through him at first poor keeping anyway.
Palace were in a word fortunate and they new it. Wolves the same. As for the officials in last to games it's bemusing! Wolves player should have seen 2 yellows and a red! Same yesterday Cahill on Martial , then the clear pull on Martial no Peñ!
Then in afternoon game shirt pull going away from goal gets a pen !! James yellow for simulation, and a clear take down knee high!! Is there a agenda or just really poor call. As for VAR it's rubbish as it's interpretation, if martial being pulled back trying to shoot is not clear and obvious what is ? Oles comes out and starts saying about theses calls he be vilified by press etc, so has to keep quiet, even the palace subs didn't adhere to the rules nothing done about that iether.
Absolutely. Currently, OGS’ management is inadequate. He should change the system and starting players, or he will be changed himself very quickly.
Playing more youngsters doesn’t guarantee results, of course not. But playing Lingards, Matas and Youngs, as well as playing Greenwood or Pogba out of position, do guarantee lack thereof.
I moaned during Mourinho's time (from the start of 2018 and onwards only) because I lost hope in him getting us playing how a United team should play. The direction we seemed to be heading in was one that Man United should not go in. It's the opposite case right now with Ole. And I'm not necessarily saying we played well, but we did play well enough for 9 times out of 10 that game ending up as a comfortable win for us on the balance of chances created and how the game flowed.
Also what exactly is pure delusion? Literally everything I said is pretty much fact. Statistically, since Ole took over at the club, we create the most chances in the league after City in Liverpool, our defense is visibly massively improved with Wan Bissaka and Maguire finally after years of shite, and we have the youngest side in the league. I'd say those are decent enough signs of encouragement, along with just using my eyes. We are far from perfect but as a side who is pretty much along with Arsenal fighting for that last top 4 spot, this is the result that happens sometimes. And that's how we should be judged this season because that's where we are at currently in our rebuild. You can get pissed off all you want that we arent further along in our rebuild, that the board didn't give Ole more so we can fix the midfield to some degree, but that's over now and it's not realistically considering where we're at.
Think about it - how can you constantly play well whilst not winning and then conjure up 3 wins in 15? I'll give you a hint, we're not playing well.
We had the same shots on target as Palace did. We didn't play well, hell yesterday looked akin to LVG at times with the ball just being rolled around the back line for periods of time. We had absolutely no bite nor threat through the middle against that low block. Yesterday was a literal fecking blueprint for every smaller side barring those around our position with pretensions of being able to attack us to come to Old Trafford and get points. Yesterday we gave the entire bottom half of the table a solid gold game plan and proof that we don't seem to know how to counter it effectively.