Hating Lingard

[breakout67]

Lingard being 'shite' is usually a result of comparing him to a concept of a player rather than an actual player. Usually Lingard got into the team because other players were underperforming; so when he played some would expect him to play to the same level as other players on form.

When lingard gives you a 6/10 performance he'll be rated as having a bad game; because he didnt perform at the top level of Martial, Rashford, Mata etc. because those were the players that were being replaced.

 

[VeevaVee]

Rubbish, I'd even say that's your perception of it.

I always rooted for him as a backup, but he wasn't adding anything in most games for a long time. There's a few people rewriting history after a few good games, like what happened with Fellaini (although I actually rate Lingard as a footballer).

 

[afrocentricity]

I always rooted for him as a backup, but he wasn't adding anything in most games for a long time. There's a few people rewriting history after a few good games, like what happened with Fellaini (although I actually rate Lingard as a footballer).

Sure but I don't think he stood out more like the poster I quoted was saying, how does that manifest itself anyway? I'm saying that's to do with perception and how we shape what we see...

It's funny you mention Fellaini because that's another example of a player getting unfair stick just because...

 

[Mr PG]

I always rooted for him as a backup, but he wasn't adding anything in most games for a long time. There's a few people rewriting history after a few good games, like what happened with Fellaini (although I actually rate Lingard as a footballer).

Either he wasn’t adding anything or fans can be quite clueless when you aren’t beating players right and left. 3 coaches sticking by him proves the latter.

 

[VeevaVee]

Sure but I don't think he stood out more like the poster I quoted was saying, how does that manifest itself anyway? I'm saying that's to do with perception and how we shape what we see...

It's funny you mention Fellaini because that's another example of a player getting unfair stick just because...

For me, Fellaini was fair stick because he was genuinely awful. I think the criticism of Lingard was largely justified too, although some went way too overboard. I just feel as though some people (not saying this is you) can't accept that just because a player is playing well now, the previous criticism wasn't warranted.

Either he wasn’t adding anything or fans can be quite clueless when you aren’t beating players right and left. 3 coaches sticking by him proves the latter.

Or maybe they saw the potential? Or we had no one better? Hopefully he continues like he is but he wasn't contributing much to our play or to goals before. I don't get why we can't accept that and enjoy how he's playing now at the same time.

 

[afrocentricity]

For me, Fellaini was fair stick because he was genuinely awful. I think the criticism of Lingard was largely justified too, although some went way too overboard. I just feel as though some people (not saying this is you) can't accept that just because a player is playing well now, the previous criticism wasn't warranted.



Or maybe they saw the potential? Or we had no one better? Hopefully he continues like he is but he wasn't contributing much to our play or to goals before. I don't get why we can't accept that and enjoy how he's playing now at the same time.

Everybody has awful games, I don't get what you are trying to say because you sound like you're on the fence here.

You believe they were shite? Fair enough then we disagree, I saw good performances and bad ones. They were good enough to still be here when players like Di Maria etc got sent packing. Or maybe you believe that they were just inconsistent or out of form but worth keeping? In that case why defend the criticism they were getting?

I just don't see the point, I can understand the odd disparaging comment out of frustration but constant slating, personal attacks, wishing injuries on players etc... I'll never understand... But that's just me.

Hopefully he continues like he is but he wasn't contributing much to our play or to goals before. I don't get why we can't accept that and enjoy how he's playing now at the same time.

Because it's bollocks, imo of course...

 

[RC89]

Btw who is that on the left? Looks to be Welbeck because of the strip colours, but correct me if wrong.

Assumed it was Welbeck myself

 

[VeevaVee]

Everybody has awful games, I don't get what you are trying to say because you sound like you're on the fence here.

You believe they were shite? Fair enough then we disagree, I saw good performances and bad ones. They were good enough to still be here when players like Di Maria etc got sent packing. Or maybe you believe that they were just inconsistent or out of form but worth keeping? In that case why defend the criticism they were getting?

I just don't see the point, I can understand the odd disparaging comment out of frustration but constant slating, personal attacks, wishing injuries on players etc... I'll never understand... But that's just me.

I don't agree with those things either. I'm just talking about the performance criticism. Di Maria wanted to leave so it's not a good example.
My point about Lingard is that he was fairly poor most of the time but I was happy with him as backup and believed he may get better, and lately I'm obviously enjoying his contributions. It's not a particularly outlandish turn of events. I reckon the managers felt similar too, which is evident with him being played in positions where we've been struggling to cement someone due to inconsistent performances from players you would've expected to be ahead of him (Mhki/Mata mainly). Thankfully the rotation and game time has given him a lot of confidence and we're seeing the results at the mo.

 

[afrocentricity]

Fair point on Di Maria, couldn't remember the Dutch guys name (I know I'm getting old and couldn't be asked to Google it, stoned too) or didn't want to try and spell Schnei....... Ffs. You get what I meant tho.

 

[m1tch]

I have to disagree with your about the Being British and less patience comment. Rooney has been shit for years and in particular at major tournament level, both the press and fan base have been supporting him regardless. I recall I can only see some criticism of Rooney in past 2 seasons. Sterling has been playing like shit for years until this year but how often have you seen him being criticised. Then there are Walcott, Wilshere, Barkeley.....

As far as negative criticism from Utd fan, I don't see much on Rooney, Scholes, Giggs, until they stop running. Unfortunately I have seen very little patience on Cleverley, I even saw fan partioning for England not to select him on National duty. Lingard was closed to that level of crowd criticism for reason that I can never understand. I can understand the situation of Adebayour or soon-to-be Sanchez who switch side, but I really can't understand why someone is picking on current players who have been loyal and dedicated to the club.

The way people got on Johnny Evans' back sticks in my mind as an example of what I'm getting at. Welbeck, Gibson and Cleverley got it too. Now it's Lingard and soon it'll be Rashford. Yes we certainly don't miss Gibson and Cleverley but I find it ridiculous how the knives are out all the time for the likes of Lingard, almost from the moment they set foot into the team.
To me it's seems signings from abroad (see Berbatov, Kagawa, BFS, Henrikh) got and get an easier ride. That's my perception of the crowd reactions and views on here anyway.

 

[Ranchero]

Seems that Jesé Lingard bashing is the new in-thing. He’s the anti-Christ to attacking football, a player who is stealing a living and worse than all other players in the PL. And that’s just the opinion of United fans.

This thread https://www.redcafe.net/threads/worst-pl-players-stealing-a-living.434056/ had some United fans quick to bash Lingard, only in the team because he’s local etc. I’m going to call this bashing Lingardism From now on.







This guy doesn’t understand and clearly no talking to him. Perhaps this video may help.


Talking about 17 year old Gomes in a transfer forum thread, Lingardism even slips in there


Since they don’t even play in the same way, not sure how a 17 year old who is not yet an u-23 regular is going to be better.



Well said this guy, he gets it. Fergie always had utility players who could do a job for the team, O’Shea, park, phizza to name just 3. You don’t win things without players like that getting minutes alongside the more talented players or illustrious names.

So, here’s to Jese Lingard.

I think if he had been called Lingardinho, he would not get the stick he gets.

A very good player for us, and the most in-form player in the team alongside Ashley Young.

 

[Kag]

What’s that meant to mean?

FWIW I created this thread not because I saw him scoring at the current rate but because I saw a good player being massively underrated by his own fans and getting absolute dogs abuse because some of those fans couldn’t see it. “Stealing a living” and “championship player” being bandied around like it was fact and more people joining in on it with very little support for Lingard. That really irritated me because it was complete utter bullshit. Hence why I created the thread and got mocked for it. Pie on faces when he started knocking worldies in!

Well done Jesse! Tell Barca to feck off when they come sniffing around

It means that he is, in spite of very good form, a player is very likely to revert back to the form that once attracted a lot of criticism.

Of course, it's possible that he has really turned a corner and has emerged as something a little more special, but time will tell. In my opinion, I think this is more of a flurry than a longer term development into a Manchester United starter.

Again, I agree that the 'Championship player' stuff is nonsense.

 

[cyberman]

I was going to say that dredging up old posts is a dickish thing to do but those posts are only a few weeks old?
I can't believe posters are still doubling down on it, where were the "Lets wait and see how his form develops" when he was being criticised or does that only apply when posts make us look foolish?
I was on another forum rationalising the sale of Pogba with Cleverlys fantastic run of form with a Cleverly > Pogba thread. Sometimes you just have to hold your hands up!

 

[::sonny::]

He is the next Messi.

Stop

 

[Ali Dia]

POTS so far for me. I knew he had some obvious quality but he’s surprised even his biggest fans this year. That Fergie quote about him being a real top player like tigana but not getting fully recognised until he was about 24 is quality.

 

[Danny Roberts]

Some players just take a long time to fully learn how to use their talent. Obviously confidence also a huge factor.

 

[Tincanalley]

Being British and coming through the academy is always going to mean he'll be shown less patience from the majority of "fans". I'm really glad to see things are going well for him and hopefully he keeps improving, keeps producing, and can stay focused if/when things don't go as well.

I gave you some quote marks for breakfast.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Sometimes I think we have a tendency to over complicate our analysis. For me, Mou's setup is detrimental to a typical 10 (Mata/Mkhi) who is creative, technical and designed to pick apart a back line when in possession but not necessarily expected to be physically very complete (speed, agility, stamina not necessarily pure strength). For us, because of the defensive responsibilities & our reliance on countering, Lingard ticks these boxes and is technically good enough to still offer some creativity alongside direct penetration from his speed - think of him as having a skill set akin to a more average version of Hazard.

 

[glazed]

Lingard is playing better.

(Have I missed anything out?)

 

[gajender]

Sometimes I think we have a tendency to over complicate our analysis. For me, Mou's setup is detrimental to a typical 10 (Mata/Mkhi) who is creative, technical and designed to pick apart a back line when in possession but not necessarily expected to be physically very complete (speed, agility, stamina not necessarily pure strength). For us, because of the defensive responsibilities & our reliance on countering, Lingard ticks these boxes and is technically good enough to still offer some creativity alongside direct penetration from his speed - think of him as having a skill set akin to a more average version of Hazard.

Mkhitaryan and Mata problem is actually quite opposite they aren't very creative against packed defences both can be decent when game is stretched but usually lack vision and creativity against parked buses which we mostly encounter.

 

[tomaldinho1]

Mkhitaryan and Mata problem is actually quite opposite they aren't very creative against packed defences both can be decent when game is stretched but usually lack vision and creativity against parked buses which we mostly encounter.

Yh not saying they've been successful but people tend to assume that type of player is the answer to creating chances. Mkhi is excellent when the game is stretched but the opposite when confronted by a wall of bodies.

 

[12OunceEpilogue]

Lingard is playing better.

(Have I missed anything out?)

Only that we're talking about a lad labelled a Championship player by some on here. As the OP has said that was the point of this thread: not that Lingard is some world-class player nor that his prancing/social media must be 100% acceptable and adorable to every United fan, but that he was taking abuse that was totally unwarranted.

Of course now he's hit some fine form we shouldn't go full Captain Hindsight. If you are still wary that this form is the exception rather than the norm that's fair enough and you may be right, but surely it is time for those who bandied around 'Championship player' and 'stealing a living' to think again?

 

[Ramshock]

Netflix should be all over that title

 

[Ramshock]

Only that we're talking about a lad labelled a Championship player by some on here. As the OP has said that was the point of this thread: not that Lingard is some world-class player nor that his prancing/social media must be 100% acceptable and adorable to every United fan, but that he was taking abuse that was totally unwarranted.

Of course now he's hit some fine form we shouldn't go full Captain Hindsight. If you are still wary that this form is the exception rather than the norm that's fair enough and you may be right, but surely it is time for those who bandied around 'Championship player' and 'stealing a living' to think again?

I dont think its the exception based purely on where he plays on the field. Jesse more often than not has a free role to roam and his ability to run with the ball creates spaces for his team and problems for defenders. He also is developing the knack of being in the right place at the right time and seems to be perfect for counter attack. He also seems to be becoming an effective finisher. For me theres enough to suggest his game is flourishing.

 

[dove]

The main reason why he got so much stick is that it's really difficult to see what he does watching on TV, you can't see all his movement that opens up space for other teammates. Up until a few months ago he was just doing that, not much else. Now he is much more involved in our play with the ball and people started noticing him + he scored some brilliant goals while doing so.

 

[red_devil83]

I think the thing is, as a 'young' player we expect them to be future superstars and anything less is considered garbage and not worth bothering with.

You need to have a debut like Martial or Rashford, then continually or at least intermittently show that level. Up until 6-8 weeks ago, Lingard hadn't really show us much than the odd important goal and wasn't really a young player any more. So why would he ever play when we should just try someone else younger, who could be better?

I'll be honest, I never saw anything in him and expected him to be an emergency backup player who should play on the cheap because he's local. Then he got that £100k a week contract, which most people thought was ridiculous. So obviously he got extra stick for being paid so much and producing so little. Only now is he starting to look worth that money.

Fair play to him, hope he keeps up this form!

 

[redflair]

Jesse has always had early Frank Lampard tendencies: looking wasteful, wayward shooting, headless chickenry and passing that left a lot to be desired.

Lampard worked like a dog on the training ground to iron out these deficiencies and became one of the best English players of his generation.

I see similar traits in Lingard - and always have. But he needs to be picked week in, week out to get anywhere near that level.

And then it's up to him. The instinctive goalscoring ability he has simply can't be taught.

 

[glazed]

Only that we're talking about a lad labelled a Championship player by some on here. As the OP has said that was the point of this thread: not that Lingard is some world-class player nor that his prancing/social media must be 100% acceptable and adorable to every United fan, but that he was taking abuse that was totally unwarranted.

Of course now he's hit some fine form we shouldn't go full Captain Hindsight. If you are still wary that this form is the exception rather than the norm that's fair enough and you may be right, but surely it is time for those who bandied around 'Championship player' and 'stealing a living' to think again?

I suppose Jamie Vardy was a championship player until he wasn't. Folks do tend to hyperbole round these parts though. I guess that's part of the charm.

 

[Verminator]

I think that for those of us who defended him, we already appreciated his movement and desire for quick interplay, and we're disappointed that his teammates weren't on his wavelength. If you had followed him in the youth teams, you wouldn't question his potential in the way some of his major detractors have.
I thought that he was unlucky on a number of occasions, when others fluffed their lines, costing him assists.

I had arguments in the SAF stand with people slating him, when I thought he was playing well.
I had to hold my hands up in some games, like last year's derby, when he and Mhiki were beyond dire.
The biggest shock was the lack of appreciation for his cup-winning goal. The first home game after, the same people said he was still shit. "A stopped clock is right twice." Ffs!
He'd get abuse on here and at OT for missing harder chances than Martial and Ibra were missing, but they got free-passes.

There has been a definite shift in attitudes towards academy products, from our fans. I don't know if the class of 92 thing changed perceptions or something, but I remember Russell Beardsmore and Luke Chadwick getting awesome support when they broke through.
The exception being Januzaj, but that may have been a panic reaction.

So glad that Jesse is tearing it up now, although he is unlikely to maintain this ridiculous form.
My only regret is, I had to give up my ticket this year.
So I don't get to gloat at the game.

Ps
I still don't rate Lindelof from what I've seen, but will willingly be proven wrong.
What I won't do, is abuse him, and question if he is even a footballer, and he isn't even a guy whose had to prove himself to our club for over 10 years.
Or grown up loving it as a fan since he could walk.

 

[Sportsman]

He brings a lot of the hate on himself, acting like a 12 year old kid, he needs to cut that out, get his head down and try and Improve as a player.

 

[devips]

I think that for those of us who defended him, we already appreciated his movement and desire for quick interplay, and we're disappointed that his teammates weren't on his wavelength. If you had followed him in the youth teams, you wouldn't question his potential in the way some of his major detractors have.
I thought that he was unlucky on a number of occasions, when others fluffed their lines, costing him assists.

I had arguments in the SAF stand with people slating him, when I thought he was playing well.
I had to hold my hands up in some games, like last year's derby, when he and Mhiki were beyond dire.
The biggest shock was the lack of appreciation for his cup-winning goal. The first home game after, the same people said he was still shit. "A stopped clock is right twice." Ffs!
He'd get abuse on here and at OT for missing harder chances than Martial and Ibra were missing, but they got free-passes.

There has been a definite shift in attitudes towards academy products, from our fans. I don't know if the class of 92 thing changed perceptions or something, but I remember Russell Beardsmore and Luke Chadwick getting awesome support when they broke through.
The exception being Januzaj, but that may have been a panic reaction.

So glad that Jesse is tearing it up now, although he is unlikely to maintain this ridiculous form.
My only regret is, I had to give up my ticket this year.
So I don't get to gloat at the game.

Ps
I still don't rate Lindelof from what I've seen, but will willingly be proven wrong.
What I won't do, is abuse him, and question if he is even a footballer, and he isn't even a guy whose had to prove himself to our club for over 10 years.
Or grown up loving it as a fan since he could walk.

Beautiful post. What Lingard added to his repertoire recently is finishing, and self confidence, the other things were already part of his game, which we non-Lingard haters, including our 3 Managers, could see. What some people debating here tend to overlook is that criticising Lingard, rightly or wrongly, has never been an issue. What bugged us, and still do, is the irrational personal hatred shown by some. They know who they are, no point in naming and shaming. It's a kind of perversion, I guess.

 

[Verminator]

Beautiful post. What Lingard added to his repertoire recently is finishing, and self confidence, the other things were already part of his game, which we non-Lingard haters, including our 3 Managers, could see. What some people debating here tend to overlook is that criticising Lingard, rightly or wrongly, has never been an issue. What bugged us, and still do, is the irrational personal hatred shown by some. They know who they are, no point in naming and shaming. It's a kind of perversion, I guess.

Cheers mate.
It used to be so obvious how static our attack became when he wasn't playing. I wondered how people didn't see it. Isolated cases can be put down to being caught in the emotion of the game, but over a period of focusing, it should be clearer.

 

[golden_blunder]

He brings a lot of the hate on himself, acting like a 12 year old kid, he needs to cut that out, get his head down and try and Improve as a player.

He’s already improving. The fact that his celebrations etc annoy you say more about you than it does him

As long as he keeps his form up I don’t care if he does rick rolls with his longer around the pitch

 

[SalfordRed18]

He brings a lot of the hate on himself, acting like a 12 year old kid, he needs to cut that out, get his head down and try and Improve as a player.

And pogba needs to stop with the hair cuts too right?

 

[desirere]

Sure but I don't think he stood out more like the poster I quoted was saying, how does that manifest itself anyway? I'm saying that's to do with perception and how we shape what we see...

It's funny you mention Fellaini because that's another example of a player getting unfair stick just because...

Nope, he really is bad/useless and should be nowhere near a club aspiring for the top.

 

[AltiUn]

He brings a lot of the hate on himself, acting like a 12 year old kid, he needs to cut that out, get his head down and try and Improve as a player.

He can do what he wants if he's scoring goals, that's you as a rival fan talking, if it was a City player I'm sure you wouldn't give a damn.

 

[Neilwij]

Im always the first to say how hes shite and ive always said he wasnt good enough but good on him for proving me wrong hes been on fire! Last couple of months hes been our best player. Scored some superb goals. I hope his form continues and i hope he keeps on proving me wrong and making a fool out of me.

 

[lysglimt]

Just out of curiosity - can anyone remember if we ever had a player who scored the majority of his goals from outside the box ? I looked at Lingards goals, and more than half his goals were scored from either just inside the box or outside it.

 

[Paul_Scholes18]

I think it was obvious from a very young age Lingard was potentially a special talent, i'm not sure what those that have ever doubted him were actually watching.

I doubted he would make it back in the days of Moyes due to him not being that quick or strong for an attacking player. He has used other skills though to really improve. I thought Januzaj would go further back then so I was totally wrong on that. He got a very good mentality to improve and that has been key for him.

 

[Class of 63]

I doubted he would make it back in the days of Moyes due to him not being that quick or strong for an attacking player. He has used other skills though to really improve. I thought Januzaj would go further back then so I was totally wrong on that. He got a very good mentality to improve and that has been key for him.

No, I was going back more to his early days in the 18s where he looked like a frail 12 year old that had been pulled out of the crowd just to make up the numbers he was that small, but every match he'd do one or two things that would take your breath away, slaloming through half of the opposition team, and then shooting 20 yards wide.