He's only young!

Invictus

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What age for you does the age excuse fly out the window?
There's no standard answer and varies on an individual basis (since every player is fundamentally different than a standard clone off the conveyor belt, especially in terms of personality), IMO - so a lot of factors are in play at the same time. eg. A lot of players develop slowly from a physical perspective (like Lingard), so their limit for qualifying as a young player varies from the young of someone who was ready to play in the first team at 18 because of greater physical maturity, and had already played 4-5 seasons by the age Lingard broke into the United team (so it's judged on the amount of time the player has been at the level, and the improved he's evidenced in that time-frame).

Though in general terms, positions that require greater tactical understanding of the game and relative technical mastery are naturally harder to play, so the upper limit for being considered young is raised (apart from exception to the rule type players - like Verratti and Weigl, who were consistently good at traditionally harder positions from a very young age).

Fast strikers (unless they're super raw and need to refine their play) are expected to produce at a younger age than traditional target 9 players that play higher (who have to be better at hold up play, need to have a better perception of space because they can't always dribble really fast to stretch the defense, need to run in the proper channels to disorganize the opposition defense, be physically stronger to hold the defenders off, etc).

Normal box-to-box players who can make an impact with their stamina are expected to produce at a younger age than holding midfielders or registas (who have to be sounder in terms of technique, positionally advanced to screen the defense, should know when to pass and whom to pass to, etc).

Same goes for normal centerbacks vs sweepers who're expected to be more perceptive and better on the ball, or support strikers and forwards vs classic #10 players who can act as proper orchestrators for their team and need to have better decision-making ability.

Wrt. Pogba, some of the criticism is a bit harsh. He was always an inconsistent player (oftentimes world class one game, and fundamentally poor the next) - even at Juventus, but he has slowly learned to minimize the underwhelming performances (still a work in progress), plus, there he had the supporting cast to take the pressure off him. At United, he's expected to be the leader from the get go (Juventus had Buffon, Pirlo, Vidal, Marshisio, Bonucci, Chiellini through the years - so he didn't have to lead and organize the team per se), and he's expected to drag the team out of trouble when things go awry (happens with a greater frequency than at Juventus - who were on the front foot and leading in most of their Serie A matches), and he's expected to be the face of the club. That's too big of a transition (especially when coupled with the way we asked him to be a proper two way box-to-box player through the early parts of the season), and he needs time to process all of that, and figure things out.

His fee doesn't mean anything - we overpaid by a massive margin, and not every big money signing has to perform at a World XI level from the get go - the money was more about investing in what he will be over the next 7-8 years (hopefully), than what he is right now. He needs to improve as an individual, no doubt, but he also needs a more improved supporting cast to ease the burden on him, and make sure that every time he doesn't deliver - the focus isn't too sharp since others know how to pick up the slack. For reference, after Bale's move to Madrid - Ronaldo was still the established star, plus - they had Modrić and Ramos and Benzema and Marcelo and Di María (in the form of his life), so he could be more relaxed - though even in his case, the media was too critical too soon and some of it got into his head - creating a bit of doubt, which is never a good thing.
 

whatwha

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Every player is different obviously. Pogba seems like a pretty immature person both off and on the pitch. Hopefully his brain will mature before his body deteriorates and then, during this overlap he'll peak. May be next year may be when he's 33. Who knows. But in the mean time he's a very decent player doing okay in his first (proper) season in the toughest league in the world. And I for one am very excited to watch him develop despite how frustrating it can be at times.
Something that strikes me about Pogba on/off the ball or when speaking, is that he still seems a bit like a teenager.
 

RedMaestro

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I'm sorry but basing capacity on age isn't fair. Some just develop late. Messi was great from the beginning. I believe Drogba was about 24 when still playing for Guingamp.
 

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Phil Jones is 24. I think people stopped giving him leeway about 3 years ago.
Funny but true. He is in no way seen as a youngster. zero leeway. it is because he has played for years.

Januzaj is 21. People also gave up on him 1 or 2 years ago.
true again for many.

Ronaldo was the best player in the world and had Manchester United's best individual season aged 23. Rooney was 24 when he had an absolute world class season in 2009-10 and was the best player in the league. Neymar is among the top five players in the world since 22 years of age. I definitely expected better from the most expensive player in the world. The age excuse definitely doesn't cut it anymore.
The reason is because these players started playing first team football young. They have been playing at high levels for a while, won trophies and have a lot of experience by that time. Wonderkids have a different development curve. Neymar was Barcelona's big signing at 22 and I doubt many gave him leeway because he was "young." He was already judged to the world level and was top scoring for Brazil.

When Frank Lampard and Roy Keane were Pogba's age they had only just signed for Chelsea and United respectively.

Vieira had already won the league and cup double with Arsenal tbf.
Difference for me is that Pogba has come from a big side where he was already a big player around Europe, hence his fee and wages. So his expectation or leeway will rightfully be different to Lamps when he moved from West Ham. Torres came to Liverpool at this same age 23/24 and was bought to lead their line. Had he messed up, would Torres have been afforded the "he is still young"

The age thing isn't an excuse, players get better the older they get in some areas of the pitch with experience and developing new skills. For a winger you can burst on to the scene at 20 and below and you aren't necessarily a million miles off your potential already. With a centre forward similarly a lot can be good relatively young. However with CM's it is entirely different, look at how late modric became world class, or when Iniesta eventually got his guaranteed place at barca ( 24) its the most involved position on the pitch so requires the most experience. Pogba is young.

Added on to that every player is different, Pogba will peak earlier than a player like modric or iniesta though because there is the physical side to his game as much as the technical side to his game. I think he will be at his best at 27
Pogba has over 200 club games under his belt and won titles with one of the biggest clubs in history. He has also been a star in a top league and played in 2 international tournaments. My point is that he is very experienced despite his age. Harry Kane is younger than Pogba and has over a seasons worth less games than him at senior level. When Kane goes through goal droughts, do people say "he is still young?" when he flopped at the Euros, was the clamour towards "he is young" holding weight? nope. Once proven at top level, players are often judged accordingly. Iniesta has been playing over 40 games a season for Barcelona since he has been 21. sure many from the bench but he has been around a good while playing.

I think Paul Pogba is in and amongst the greatest ever young midfielders I've ever seen. At 23, he is immense. People are only judging him against his transfer fee, which is very unfair on the individual himself.

Let's look at some of the great midfielders of my generation.

ZIDANE - one of my fave ever players - Pogba reminds me of him in terms of touch and hold-off - but at 23 Zidane was in and out of the first team at Bordeux, although highly rated, he was inconsistent. Moved to Juve at 24 and started to climb the ranks to 'world class' around the age of 27.
At 23 going on 24 (Pogba's age) Zidane was voted best player in France. The very next season he moved to Italy was valued best foreign player. This was when Serie A was the strongest league with the biggest and baddest foreign players on the highest transfer fees.

SCHOLES - not a Man Utd regular at just 23. In fact Scholes was even considered behind Nicky Butt in the pecking order. Became world class around 26 years of age, but people really started raving about him in his late 20s.
At 23 turning 24, Scholes was a starting CM for Man Utd. This was season Arsenal won the league. He was also England 2nd top scorer going into 98 World Cup.

XAVI - at 23, Xavi was highly thought of but a long way off being top drawer. He was in the Barca first team and was inching into being a regular starter for Spain. It wasn't until he was about 28 that people started to genuinely realise he was one of the best ball utilsers in world football.
Xavi is a famous late developer.
PIRLO
- nowhere near world class at 23. Had only arrived at Milan after impressing and showing promise on loan at Regina. He went to Brescia when he was 21-22 and couldn't really get in their first team regularly. About 5 years later, he was deemed top drawer...but went through his mid 20's not necessarily recognised as a world great.
This is Pirlo at 23 going on 24 ."Pirlo led Serie A in the 2002–03 season in four categories – passes played (2589), ball possession (123 hours played and 39 minutes), successful balls (661), and successful passes (2093); he averaged almost 90 passes per game throughout the season. During this season, his second with the club, he also managed a career best of 9 goals in Serie A, as Milan finished the league in third place, also winning the Coppa Italia over Roma,[47] and the UEFA Champions League

I would say Pogba is ahead of all these greats at this specific time in his career. I say that without any bias. I just think people are judging him off his transfer fee, which is not fair on the player himself. SO to say "he's only young" is a very, very, very valid argument. His best years are way ahead of him.
I refute your claim that Pogba is ahead of all of these!
 

Pogue Mahone

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Difference for me is that Pogba has come from a big side where he was already a big player around Europe, hence his fee and wages. So his expectation or leeway will rightfully be different to Lamps when he moved from West Ham.
Irrelevant to a discussion about what age someone is likely to play their best football.
 

hellohello

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The age thing isn't an excuse, players get better the older they get in some areas of the pitch with experience and developing new skills. For a winger you can burst on to the scene at 20 and below and you aren't necessarily a million miles off your potential already. With a centre forward similarly a lot can be good relatively young. However with CM's it is entirely different, look at how late modric became world class, or when Iniesta eventually got his guaranteed place at barca ( 24) its the most involved position on the pitch so requires the most experience. Pogba is young.

Added on to that every player is different, Pogba will peak earlier than a player like modric or iniesta though because there is the physical side to his game as much as the technical side to his game. I think he will be at his best at 27
I've seen this a few times, but in my opinion Modric was absolutely world class at Tottenham. Just because he played for Spurs doesn't mean he couldn't have been world class before arriving at Madrid. Modric managed to dictate games in a 2 man midfield, playing next to average players and often with two wingers. His performances for Spurs were unbelievable although he isn't the type of player opposition fans rave about since he is not a typical highlight player.

He did this to Spain at 25 (for those interested):

Anyway, I'll be looking to next season for Pogba, I think he will have a great season, but if he doesn't I don't think people can play the 'age' card.
 

amolbhatia50k

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Pogba has nothing to prove. After leaving United he became the Serie A best midfielder at Juventus and he's now the most expensive midfielder in the world. Considering that we are barely able to qualify to the CL we are lucky to have him especially after snubbing him in favour of the likes of Cleverley.

He is also doing very well with us by scoring 7 goals in 32 appearances. Can he do better? Of course he can. At Juventus he did better and he's doing better with France were he scored goals against Holland and Sweden. But there again at Juventus and with France he played/plays with better CMs then the ones we currently have.
Pogba has plenty to prove. Silly to suggest otherwise.
 

OohAahMartial

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Pogba just doesn't like doing the dirty defensive work and his mentality is quite emotional and variable but I don't think this is about his age but his personality.

He will improve with good coaching and experience. I do agree that central midfielders peak later than strikers for example. Owen and Rooney were already very effective at 18 as raw pace gives them such an advantage. In CM it is about the mind and not the body so much.
 

devilish

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Pogba has plenty to prove. Silly to suggest otherwise.
I disagree. His talent is undeniable. If United had to put him on transfer list then most top clubs would try to sign him. That's how good he is.

There's a difference between proving oneself and improving. I have no claims with the latter
 

TheBiggest

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Pogba's talents are undeniable. I have said for years and will maintain this...Paul Pogba playing in our reserves - is the best young talent I have EVER seen. And I worked in football for 12-years.

Some of you just look for an argument for the sake of an argument. There is no argument here: Paul Pogba is one of the greatest young talents the game has seen.
 

hellohello

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Pogba's talents are undeniable. I have said for years and will maintain this...Paul Pogba playing in our reserves - is the best young talent I have EVER seen. And I worked in football for 12-years.

Some of you just look for an argument for the sake of an argument. There is no argument here: Paul Pogba is one of the greatest young talents the game has seen.
Haha, I don't think people are arguing about his talent, but rather that he is not 'young' anymore, and that people want consistently great performances from him.
 

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Pogba's talents are undeniable. I have said for years and will maintain this...Paul Pogba playing in our reserves - is the best young talent I have EVER seen. And I worked in football for 12-years.

Some of you just look for an argument for the sake of an argument. There is no argument here: Paul Pogba is one of the greatest young talents the game has seen.
Difficult to say as you have to compare with his peers and depends how you define it. Bojan was wonderful in Barcelona B and C teams and shattered records even Messi set. Rossi was my favourite at Utd youth level. everyone accepts that Morrison was the better young talent out of him and Pogba. Ronaldo was winning world player of the year at 20 years of age ahead of legends like Weah and Klinsmann
 

kidbob

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I feel what we are seeing now is the 'Suarez' effect. The signs of a top player are there and there have been undeniable moments of brilliance but it may be next season before we see him put it all together. It may also take a rejig of the midfield and some new personnel but that's no knock on Pogba. This is an unique League in terms of style and will take most players time to adapt their strengths to it.

While in this thread I'll also mention that I still have huge hopes for the even younger, yet written off, Janujaz and we would be crazy to keep someone like Lingard (and I'm a fan of Jesse and would keep him as a squad player) and let him go. Get the attitude right and there's a top player in there too. Same applies for Pereira who needs to fill one of the slots left behind by any midfielders who have left or leave this summer. Hell the same applies for Martial, Rashford and Shaw. They all need time to prove themselves. I'd be confident that all or most of those will prove to be top top players in time.

Sorry for going off topic.
 

Stacks

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There's no standard answer and varies on an individual basis (since every player is fundamentally different than a standard clone off the conveyor belt, especially in terms of personality), IMO - so a lot of factors are in play at the same time. eg. A lot of players develop slowly from a physical perspective (like Lingard), so their limit for qualifying as a young player varies from the young of someone who was ready to play in the first team at 18 because of greater physical maturity, and had already played 4-5 seasons by the age Lingard broke into the United team (so it's judged on the amount of time the player has been at the level, and the improved he's evidenced in that time-frame).

Though in general terms, positions that require greater tactical understanding of the game and relative technical mastery are naturally harder to play, so the upper limit for being considered young is raised (apart from exception to the rule type players - like Verratti and Weigl, who were consistently good at traditionally harder positions from a very young age).

Fast strikers (unless they're super raw and need to refine their play) are expected to produce at a younger age than traditional target 9 players that play higher (who have to be better at hold up play, need to have a better perception of space because they can't always dribble really fast to stretch the defense, need to run in the proper channels to disorganize the opposition defense, be physically stronger to hold the defenders off, etc).

Normal box-to-box players who can make an impact with their stamina are expected to produce at a younger age than holding midfielders or registas (who have to be sounder in terms of technique, positionally advanced to screen the defense, should know when to pass and whom to pass to, etc).

Same goes for normal centerbacks vs sweepers who're expected to be more perceptive and better on the ball, or support strikers and forwards vs classic #10 players who can act as proper orchestrators for their team and need to have better decision-making ability.

Wrt. Pogba, some of the criticism is a bit harsh. He was always an inconsistent player (oftentimes world class one game, and fundamentally poor the next) - even at Juventus, but he has slowly learned to minimize the underwhelming performances (still a work in progress), plus, there he had the supporting cast to take the pressure off him. At United, he's expected to be the leader from the get go (Juventus had Buffon, Pirlo, Vidal, Marshisio, Bonucci, Chiellini through the years - so he didn't have to lead and organize the team per se), and he's expected to drag the team out of trouble when things go awry (happens with a greater frequency than at Juventus - who were on the front foot and leading in most of their Serie A matches), and he's expected to be the face of the club. That's too big of a transition (especially when coupled with the way we asked him to be a proper two way box-to-box player through the early parts of the season), and he needs time to process all of that, and figure things out.

His fee doesn't mean anything - we overpaid by a massive margin, and not every big money signing has to perform at a World XI level from the get go - the money was more about investing in what he will be over the next 7-8 years (hopefully), than what he is right now. He needs to improve as an individual, no doubt, but he also needs a more improved supporting cast to ease the burden on him, and make sure that every time he doesn't deliver - the focus isn't too sharp since others know how to pick up the slack. For reference, after Bale's move to Madrid - Ronaldo was still the established star, plus - they had Modrić and Ramos and Benzema and Marcelo and Di María (in the form of his life), so he could be more relaxed - though even in his case, the media was too critical too soon and some of it got into his head - creating a bit of doubt, which is never a good thing.
agree with the 1st bolded bit.

2nd bit I disagree as he came with the reputation as the "best CM in the world" or one of, something Jose has even echoed recently. Therefore if you are rated one of the best in your position, you are expected to perform today. I don't think he is one of the best CM in the world myself, but this is the rep he has been given. Of course the premier league is a big adjustment from Serie A too.
 

BlueMoonOutcast

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Aguero joined us at 23, banged in 30 goals in his first season and won us the league.

I think it's generally accepted that players enter their peak around 26-28 but not always.
 

unitedforeveral

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Different positions call for different style and different stamina levels. A striker at 30 might play much less than a mid-fielder or a defender because one of the most important factors to be a forward is pace and then technique. So age should not be a factor, only talent and commitment matters.
 

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Aguero joined us at 23, banged in 30 goals in his first season and won us the league.

I think it's generally accepted that players enter their peak around 26-28 but not always.
Kun was a wonderkid and strikers tend to cope better at the early ages as they have that goal scorers instinct. Michael Owen said that when he came up to Liverpool 1st team, he knew he would do well because "if you are good at something (scoring) you are good at it." I don't think I have ever seen a midfielder peak before 27 except maybe Kaka
 

Invictus

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agree with the 1st bolded bit.

2nd bit I disagree as he came with the reputation as the "best CM in the world" or one of, something Jose has even echoed recently. Therefore if you are rated one of the best in your position, you are expected to perform today. I don't think he is one of the best CM in the world myself, but this is the rep he has been given. Of course the premier league is a big adjustment from Serie A too.
That's the thing, though - there's a dissonance between how he was rated and what he was producing week in and week out. A lot of people were jumping to conclusions regarding Pogba and his supposed 'best CM in the world' status based on FIFPro World XI nominations and his performances where he was in full flow - and while he played exceedingly well when the light was switched on, he really struggled in the games where he wasn't fully focused (particularly in Europe - where he wasn't given that much room to improvise, as opposed to Serie A). I too think he wasn't fully deserving of the rep. and posted random blurbs to that effect: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/top...-10s-in-the-world.421604/page-2#post-19780939

Pogba would have been brilliant in a team that had a great setup because when he's on song, he can push the midfield to another dynamic level, and because said team is fundamentally sound, they can withstand the effects of him not playing to that level consistently. But when he's asked to dig his team out of trouble on a regular basis, he can struggle because that week in-week out consistency eludes him right now (same goes for Zlatan, to an extent, and that's reflected in the struggles of our team overall when he isn't producing the goods in terms of statistical returns and performances). Pogba's not someone who will have an impact on almost every game, yet (as opposed to Verratti - whose mean level is higher and more consistent than Paul's). The next step for Pogba is to find that kind of consistency (which made the likes of Modrić, Busquets, Schweinsteiger, Vidal, Alonso, Iniesta and co. the best midfielders in the world in recent years - they weren't just good, they were consistently good).

But the fee part alluded to the club's trust in him to become that kind of consistent player (in the near future) who'll have an impact on most games. That's going to be the next phase of his evolution. Also, he's an atypical CM player (another thing that got overlooked while we were signing him) - in that's he's a central-ish midfielder who always looks to attack and dribble (which can be an issue when the manager tries to restrict him and places a greater than ideal tactical burden on him). There's a lot of moving pieces with him, and the club + Pogba must figure things out for him to have the desired impact - particularly his long term position - is he going to be an LCM, or is he going to become a proper two way box-to-box player like his technical and athletic skillset suggests. There's a sense of leap of faith involved with the deal - hence the 'investing in what he will be over the next 7-8 years (hopefully)' bit.
 

Stacks

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That's the thing, though - there's a dissonance between how he was rated and what he was producing week in and week out. A lot of people were jumping to conclusions regarding Pogba and his supposed 'best CM in the world' status based on FIFPro World XI nominations and his performances where he was in full flow - and while he played exceedingly well when the light was switched on, he really struggled in the games where he wasn't fully focused (particularly in Europe - where he wasn't given that much room to improvise, as opposed to Serie A). I too think he wasn't fully deserving of the rep. and posted random blurbs to that effect: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/top...-10s-in-the-world.421604/page-2#post-19780939

Pogba would have been brilliant in a team that had a great setup because when he's on song, he can push the midfield to another dynamic level, and because said team is fundamentally sound, they can withstand the effects of him not playing to that level consistently. But when he's asked to dig his team out of trouble on a regular basis, he can struggle because that week in-week out consistency eludes him right now (same goes for Zlatan, to an extent, and that's reflected in the struggles of our team overall when he isn't producing the goods in terms of statistical returns and performances). Pogba's not someone who will have an impact on almost every game, yet (as opposed to Verratti - whose mean level is higher and more consistent than Paul's). The next step for Pogba is to find that kind of consistency (which made the likes of Modrić, Busquets, Schweinsteiger, Vidal, Alonso, Iniesta and co. the best midfielders in the world in recent years - they weren't just good, they were consistently good).

But the fee part alluded to the club's trust in him to become that kind of consistent player (in the near future) who'll have an impact on most games. That's going to be the next phase of his evolution. Also, he's an atypical CM player (another thing that got overlooked while we were signing him) - in that's he's a central-ish midfielder who always looks to attack and dribble (which can be an issue when the manager tries to restrict him and places a greater than ideal tactical burden on him). There's a lot of moving pieces with him, and the club + Pogba must figure things out for him to have the desired impact - particularly his long term position - is he going to be an LCM, or is he going to become a proper two way box-to-box player like his technical and athletic skillset suggests. There's a sense of leap of faith involved with the deal - hence the 'investing in what he will be over the next 7-8 years (hopefully)' bit.
Have to agree with virtually all of this
 

LouisDanGaal

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I've seen this a few times, but in my opinion Modric was absolutely world class at Tottenham. Just because he played for Spurs doesn't mean he couldn't have been world class before arriving at Madrid. Modric managed to dictate games in a 2 man midfield, playing next to average players and often with two wingers. His performances for Spurs were unbelievable although he isn't the type of player opposition fans rave about since he is not a typical highlight player.

He did this to Spain at 25 (for those interested):

Anyway, I'll be looking to next season for Pogba, I think he will have a great season, but if he doesn't I don't think people can play the 'age' card.
He wasn't I don't remember there ever being a conversation about Modric being one of the best players in the league. He has always been top class but not world class.
 

hellohello

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He wasn't I don't remember there ever being a conversation about Modric being one of the best players in the league. He has always been top class but not world class.
Ferguson said he would have picked Modric for player of the season in 2011. He was also talked about quite a bit, but playing for Spurs he would not be in the mainstream media to the same degree as if he played for United. He was absolute class for Spurs, and before he moved to Madrid I personally thought he was already on level with the absolute best midfielders in the game. I don't often big up Spurs players, but Modric was one I said could play for any team in the world at the time.

In any case, I agree that Pogba has everything he needs to become a world class midfielder, and I'm excited about next season. If he finds his place in the team and consistently plays to the level we know he is capable of he will become world class.
 

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Agree that Pogbas best years are ahead of him and he's still par with other previous top players at their respective ages.
He's not "young" tough that doesn't mean he can't still improve a lot in the next few years. He's been sensational at times but his finishing really lets him down.
 

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Kun was a wonderkid and strikers tend to cope better at the early ages as they have that goal scorers instinct. Michael Owen said that when he came up to Liverpool 1st team, he knew he would do well because "if you are good at something (scoring) you are good at it." I don't think I have ever seen a midfielder peak before 27 except maybe Kaka
I hope you're right. De Bruyne is going to be good. :drool:
 

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I think with Pogba it's because of his position more than anything else. If he was a winger or striker he would be expected to make mistakes but as a central midfielder he can't afford to be as reckless as say Rashford. I think that's one of the reasons he sometimes doesn't boss games like we know he could.

I think, although there are exceptions, around 26-27 is when players in his position start coming into their own, gaining the maturity and confidence needed to control a game. For a player of Pogba's ability I don't think his age is so much an excuse as it is a way of saying he will get better with time and until then we can probably expect a few lapses/inconsistencies in his game.
 

redflair

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I think there are signs, particularly late in games, that Pogba realises that the 'strolling' demeanour of the first half (or so) won't do.

At this point, when we're chasing a game or desperate for a goal, I see more intense, dynamic PP - starting to spray the ball around, look for the forward pass and make things happen from the edge of the box.

This is usually when he starts swaying his body a bit and moving his head from side to side. More of that please - and less of the lacklustre, leisurely opening periods which have blighted his first few months.
 

Pat_Mustard

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A never-nude? I thought he just liked cut-offs.
I've seen this a few times, but in my opinion Modric was absolutely world class at Tottenham. Just because he played for Spurs doesn't mean he couldn't have been world class before arriving at Madrid. Modric managed to dictate games in a 2 man midfield, playing next to average players and often with two wingers. His performances for Spurs were unbelievable although he isn't the type of player opposition fans rave about since he is not a typical highlight player.

He did this to Spain at 25 (for those interested):

Anyway, I'll be looking to next season for Pogba, I think he will have a great season, but if he doesn't I don't think people can play the 'age' card.
In the latter stages of his Spurs career he'd established himself as a class act for sure, but he didn't have a particularly good first season did he?
 

Infordin

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PIRLO - nowhere near world class at 23. Had only arrived at Milan after impressing and showing promise on loan at Regina. He went to Brescia when he was 21-22 and couldn't really get in their first team regularly. About 5 years later, he was deemed top drawer...but went through his mid 20's not necessarily recognised as a world great.
Pirlo was 23 in the 2002/03 season. He was a regular starter and one of the most important players in Milan winning the CL. He scored 10 goals that season when playing in a deeper position than Pogba does now. He was definitely world class at that age.

XAVI - at 23, Xavi was highly thought of but a long way off being top drawer. He was in the Barca first team and was inching into being a regular starter for Spain. It wasn't until he was about 28 that people started to genuinely realise he was one of the best ball utilsers in world football.
Xavi was already recognized as one of the best in the world in his position in 2004/05 at the age of 24.

About Xavi and Pirlo, read this old thread from back in 2004:

http://www.xtratime.org/forum/156-world-football/144554-pirlo-vs-xavi-technical-point-view.html

I rate them as 1 and 2 in the world in there postions.

The deep (almost defensive mid), midfield play maker role.
 
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Santoryo

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This thread is funny considering Poges has been playing top level football since he was 20.

This thread is making it seem as if Poges is some player showing youngsters like immaturity in his game and needs more years to play at a high level.

He came back from 4 top class years at a top club with some world class years to back it up and is simply still getting into the team groove like everyone else in his first season. It's not like we've never seen properly established top and world class player having a first okayish season at a new club but still pick things up later.

And I've hardly seen people use the "young " excuse with Pogba given most see him as an already established player who came from a top club as a top player.

Just because some are saying Pogba is yet to reach his peek doesn't mean he isn't a top class player now.
 

Infordin

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Edit: nevermind forget this
 
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amolbhatia50k

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I disagree. His talent is undeniable. If United had to put him on transfer list then most top clubs would try to sign him. That's how good he is.

There's a difference between proving oneself and improving. I have no claims with the latter
Talent is not relevant. Your performances and achievements are. And he has lots to achieve and levels of performance to reach. Heck, even great players have to constantly to prove themselves let alone one who wants to be considered elite.
 

hellohello

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In the latter stages of his Spurs career he'd established himself as a class act for sure, but he didn't have a particularly good first season did he?
He played under Juande Ramos and was shifted around the midfield, the team overall struggled. Don't remember him playing particularly bad, and once Redknapp came in and he got some consistency his performances got better. But yeah, his first season wasn't his best.
 

Full bodied red

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Pogba's talents are undeniable. I have said for years and will maintain this...Paul Pogba playing in our reserves - is the best young talent I have EVER seen. And I worked in football for 12-years.

Some of you just look for an argument for the sake of an argument. There is no argument here: Paul Pogba is one of the greatest young talents the game has seen.
Hang on....All a bit ambiguous....

Isn't that what we're discussing -

IS
one of the greatest young talents because he's ' still only 23 / 24 ' and there's plenty of time and more still to come

or

WAS
the best young talent when he was 18 / 19 playing in the reserves, but now he's a 23 / 24 years old Global Superstar who doesn't always play like a Global Superstar
 
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Kamprad

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In his mother's eyes he will always be little baby-Paul. In my eyes too.
 

amolbhatia50k

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That's the thing, though - there's a dissonance between how he was rated and what he was producing week in and week out. A lot of people were jumping to conclusions regarding Pogba and his supposed 'best CM in the world' status based on FIFPro World XI nominations and his performances where he was in full flow - and while he played exceedingly well when the light was switched on, he really struggled in the games where he wasn't fully focused (particularly in Europe - where he wasn't given that much room to improvise, as opposed to Serie A). I too think he wasn't fully deserving of the rep. and posted random blurbs to that effect: https://www.redcafe.net/threads/top...-10s-in-the-world.421604/page-2#post-19780939

Pogba would have been brilliant in a team that had a great setup because when he's on song, he can push the midfield to another dynamic level, and because said team is fundamentally sound, they can withstand the effects of him not playing to that level consistently. But when he's asked to dig his team out of trouble on a regular basis, he can struggle because that week in-week out consistency eludes him right now (same goes for Zlatan, to an extent, and that's reflected in the struggles of our team overall when he isn't producing the goods in terms of statistical returns and performances). Pogba's not someone who will have an impact on almost every game, yet (as opposed to Verratti - whose mean level is higher and more consistent than Paul's). The next step for Pogba is to find that kind of consistency (which made the likes of Modrić, Busquets, Schweinsteiger, Vidal, Alonso, Iniesta and co. the best midfielders in the world in recent years - they weren't just good, they were consistently good).

But the fee part alluded to the club's trust in him to become that kind of consistent player (in the near future) who'll have an impact on most games. That's going to be the next phase of his evolution. Also, he's an atypical CM player (another thing that got overlooked while we were signing him) - in that's he's a central-ish midfielder who always looks to attack and dribble (which can be an issue when the manager tries to restrict him and places a greater than ideal tactical burden on him). There's a lot of moving pieces with him, and the club + Pogba must figure things out for him to have the desired impact - particularly his long term position - is he going to be an LCM, or is he going to become a proper two way box-to-box player like his technical and athletic skillset suggests. There's a sense of leap of faith involved with the deal - hence the 'investing in what he will be over the next 7-8 years (hopefully)' bit.
I agree with this assessment. Pogba is a cracking player when he is on his game but he's still got a bit too much roughness in his game to be absolutely top drawer. He struggles far too much for example in games where he's denied space. And hence the inconsistency in the performance levels. I'm hoping it's more a natural thing he'll learn to master with time rather than a genuine attitude/focus issue that will always be a part of him. Sometimes I do get the feeling that he wants to be more Ronaldhinio than Modric, and doesnt have the ability to pull it off. Flashiness is fine but he has to learn his own limitations.