I remember a late Robben dive against Mexico resulting in a penalty.
Holland - Euro 2021 discussion
- Thread starter KirkDuyt
- Start date
Ah, of course it was. Was watching the other game at the same time I think, but fair enough, must have been some display!
I think the overall point about the venues stands though - we saw enough evidence with the empty stadiums of Covid how plenty of teams home/away form changed with the only real variable being the crowd support.
Yeah it was like 35 degrees celsius out there in Brazil, everyone on the pitch exhausted, Robben made a final minute dive and the ref was like let's get this over with right now.
Yeah, I mostly agree on the overall point. I'm somewhat torn. I went to 3 out of 4 games held in Budapest and it was an absolutely amazing experience, something I'd never have had without this multi-city format. On the other hand... was it the Swedes who had to play one game in Sevilla and then another in St. Petersburg four days later? That's an absolute joke.
Yeah, some teams have been absolutely shafted by it. My lot (Wales) effectively had to play 3 away games (Turkey in Baku, Italy in Rome, and finally Denmark in Amsterdam with no fans legally allowed in the country, and a whole stadium full of Danes). As far as pure travel goes, the Swiss have probably been fecked over more than anybody, too - in the unlikely even they get through, they'll have done Baku - Rome (away) - Baku (basically away) - Bucharest - St Petersburg.
They're playing a completely different tournament to England who'd get every fecking game but one at home if they went all the way.
I wouldn't mind if Henk Fraser* would get a chance - instead of recycling Van Gaal or Advocaat.
*If the likes of Ten Hag and Bosz are not available.
*If the likes of Ten Hag and Bosz are not available.
None of those seem to fit the Dutch FA's apparent preferred profile of 'was a very good player for you in the 90s but failed miserably as a manager at club level'.
Isn't it Phillip Cocu's go?
I agree. Usually there will always be one or two home nations that get an advantage. The home advantage that England have got is far less than a usual home nation would due to the lack of crowds.
but for other teams, the effect is far more detrimental than rocking up to a country and playing in a couple of different cities in that country.
hopefully we never see this type of tournament again. Complete cluster.
Wouldn't suprise me at all. Van Brockhorst would be a more sensible choise though.
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Koeman was a decent manager in PL and hes doing ok at Barca as well. Not fantastic, but I think he'd take this NL side to latter rounds of international tournaments.
The next appointment could be crucial as they clearly have some decent talent (MdL, Frenkie, Malen, Gravenberch, Timber, Koopmeiners, Botman to add to De Vrij, Depay, VVD, Dumfries, etc) and these players need some experience of big tournaments sooner rather than later if they want to achieve something in the subsequent tournaments.
Frank de Boer needs to go for sure.. He should never have been appointed in the first place.. Its a real hassle though to come up with a good alternative though..
Peter Bosz, Ronald Koeman, Erik ten Hag are all good candidates, but none of them is avaiable..
Ten Cate, Rijkaard, Advocaat, Hiddink, Van Marwijk are names which are bound to be mentioned, but we should really move on if you ask me..
Then what other options are there?
Henk Fraser? Done a good job almost everywhere, but he has a conservative playing style.. So I rate him as a coach, but I wouldnt want him in the national team.
John vd Brom? I hate him.. Has shown in the past he can play decent football with a team though, but the only place he really made more out of a team was his 1 year ADO spell more than 10 years ago...
Van Bronkhorst? Could be an option.. I think he is mostly a good people manager, but Ive seen too little of him actually developing some kind of playing style..
Stam and Cocu shouldnt be mentioned if you ask me..
Slot just went to Feyenoord, Pascal Jansen has only been with AZ a couple months, Van Bommel just went to Wolfsburg..
Out of the box option could be Alfred Schreuder.. Very highly rated by almost everyone he has worked with, I like his style.. He rates pressure and creativity, worked very closely with Nagelsmann, Ten Hag, Koeman.. Not that much experience at coacing jobs with end responsibility though.. Think in the end he would be my preferred option, given Koeman, Bosz and Ten Hag being unavailable...
I would never want a foreign coach in the national team..
Peter Bosz, Ronald Koeman, Erik ten Hag are all good candidates, but none of them is avaiable..
Ten Cate, Rijkaard, Advocaat, Hiddink, Van Marwijk are names which are bound to be mentioned, but we should really move on if you ask me..
Then what other options are there?
Henk Fraser? Done a good job almost everywhere, but he has a conservative playing style.. So I rate him as a coach, but I wouldnt want him in the national team.
John vd Brom? I hate him.. Has shown in the past he can play decent football with a team though, but the only place he really made more out of a team was his 1 year ADO spell more than 10 years ago...
Van Bronkhorst? Could be an option.. I think he is mostly a good people manager, but Ive seen too little of him actually developing some kind of playing style..
Stam and Cocu shouldnt be mentioned if you ask me..
Slot just went to Feyenoord, Pascal Jansen has only been with AZ a couple months, Van Bommel just went to Wolfsburg..
Out of the box option could be Alfred Schreuder.. Very highly rated by almost everyone he has worked with, I like his style.. He rates pressure and creativity, worked very closely with Nagelsmann, Ten Hag, Koeman.. Not that much experience at coacing jobs with end responsibility though.. Think in the end he would be my preferred option, given Koeman, Bosz and Ten Hag being unavailable...
I would never want a foreign coach in the national team..
It shouldn’t be allowed
Think that's not possible since it would mean that the FA would essentially have to "discriminate" in their hiring process. You can't exclude someone for a job over their nationality.
UEFA or FIFA could probably make it one of their competition rules. But that would be bad for small nations such as England.
Ah yeah ok, maybe apply the same rules as the players.
that is a good point about the smaller countries. England though, haven’t their best tournaments been with English managers.
I disagree. A lot of countries in Africa and Asia have benefited a lot by having European coaches.
I felt he played into Czech hands by not playing Weghorst. It's not going to be pretty but he may have done better for the team.
Thats not an argument if you ask me.. A lot of countries in Africa and Asia would benefit from European players as well.. Why should the ruling be different for players than for managers?
If smaller football countries want to benefit from European knowledge there are other ways.. But a national team is a national team..
How would you even enforce that, if say the Dutch next hired Jonkers as their head coach with Löw as one of his assistants?
Does the entire staff have to be domestic? Would FIFA supervise training sessions and dressing rooms to make sure?
I blame myself so much for falling into the trap again becoming optimistic and enthousiastic, even though I was fully aware Frank de Boer is our main coach...
I have no clue, maybe limit it to the Main coach and the assistents. I am aware there will always be ways to circumvent regulation... Also dont have any interest to make a very big point of it, its not something i feel very strongly about..
Just intrinsically it feels very weird for me that we allow National team coaches from other countries.. I wouldnt want it in NL ever, even if its Pep Guardiola...
you could potentially implement it for bigger nations. But what about the smaller counties, that don’t have any good/ qualified/ top class coaches?
I think every nation would prefer to have a countryman/ woman in charge all things being equal - but sometimes it’s not possible or there are far better options from the other 190+ countries.
Good point about the smaller nations and I agree with poster above it helps them.
I just don’t like the idea of a German managing spain or an Italian managing England, it kinda goes against the idea of a national team, unless they could find a great nan relation or something
Exactly. Anyway it's not enforceable either. Majority of the counties won't accept it. What about the medical staff?
FIFA can't tell countries who they can employ.
The not hiring foreign coaches thing is just ridiculous. We had the same mentality in Belgium for decades and it resulted in us being managed by has-beens and rejects.
Our coach now isn't even world class, yet still a clear upgrade on what we used to hire.
Our coach now isn't even world class, yet still a clear upgrade on what we used to hire.
Used to be you could just give a passport to a player and you could poach all over the world to bolster your national team. That's how the USA got by in those early World Cups.
Then FIFA banned it because you are supposed to work with what you got. That's the charm of international football.
I don't see a principal difference when it comes to using foreign managers. You don't have any good managers available? Well that's no different than Iceland not having Messi or Ronaldo available. Football is not about handicapping.
I don't think any other sport has such a rule. I think it's a nice tradition for those who can afford it and I think Germany should keep it up as well. But most other countries can't afford to think like that. And since it doesn't really seem enforceable either I don't see the point.
Everything outside of the 90 minutes is internationalized anyway. Gear, scouts, doctors, the coaching at club level (which has far bigger effect on a player's development than the NT anyway).
No this is a terrible suggestion. On the contrary having foreign managers managing weaker teams can make them develop their football identity with better and more diverse tactics, and can lead to a revolution of football in their country in general.
This touches on a much deep problem with Dutch national football. It's ruled by popularity and popularity has nothing to do with performance. Frank de Boer was a good player but he was also known for making a mistake every game. On of those mistakes cost us the 2002 WC and he had quite a role in euro 2000 exit. If you think the British press is bad, the Dutch football press always demands a manager they get along with, and often get it, and then want a say in who plays. They start demanding from that manager that he starts with the players they like for whatever reason, usually it's got nothing to do with performances or even level.
The Dutch FA usually gives in, there was a fresh president in 2012 and didn't. He appointed Van Gaal, the man that did the managerial performance of the century with Ajax from 90-95, made AZ champions which is something like Leicester winning the PL, transformed Bayern Munich and almost won the CL, objectively there could not be much discussion about it. But the amount of **** they got over them in the 2 years leading up to the Spain game was tremendous, despite the qualis going smooth.
But that was the exception. The Dutch FA usually appoints the manager that is the cowardly compromise, the one that the media likes. And they liked De Boer, they supported his appointment and presented it as some inevitability. Even until today they claimed he had done well with Ajax. He hadn't, he made Ajax into a European bystander, only just good enough to bore the weak Dutch opposition of that time into small margin defeats, just enough to win the league, leaning on the system learned in the youth academy.
What Dutch football needs is a FA president with a spine who appoints the best manager for the job and then unfolds his umbrella to take the shitstorm. Don't listen to the players, not to the pseudo-vedettes and leaders who don't lead when it matters. Wijnaldum, Van Dijk, they spoke out against Van Gaal to take the place of Koeman while that's exactly the kind of manager a fairly low talented squad like this needed. They're responsible too. Of course his reputation is intimidating, but you're not there to have an easy time, but to win.
This is not the first time players and media together managed to activate the self destruction mechanism. It's only after that and in special circumstances that the FA feels free to hire the best man for the job.
They liked De Boer? Who did? Apart from a few Ajax fans everyone was fecking baffled by the decision to hire this serial loser.
Also highly doubt that questioning a trainers choices is a Dutch thing. Media and fans everywhere do that.
Maybe everyone rather felt resigned to the situation? I mean, it's not like there were better alternatives when Koeman left. It's a poor situation for Dutch coaching.
To add insult to my injuries Berghuis has (allegedly) signed for Ajax. Great week, this 
Would that guy who captains your team and contributed more than one G/A per game be a painful loss? I don't follow Dutch football closely enough to tell.To add insult to my injuries Berghuis has (allegedly) signed for Ajax. Great week, this
Naaah not at all. I'm fairly confident we will be able to avoid relegation without him.
Also, we got Guus Til on loan from Lokomotiv Russian Powerplant FC, so Im sure we will manage.
Examples of football revolutions from this (out of interest)
It had to be massaged in and ended up being presented as an inevitable. Even today on television it was claimed he did great with Ajax.
Yes, but in the Netherlands the media expect to have an influence on which players starts and with reason. Right after the 2012 self destruction the manager Van Marwijk even said ' but this was the side you demanded'. This euro's there was a campaign for Malen and Malen ended up in the starting 11.
There is not a soul in Denmark questioning anything that Kasper Hjulmand does these days.
Hehe, yeah I can imagine after the last 2 games you lot had
hope you smash those pesky Czechs. Avenge us.