Holland - Euro 2021 discussion

[GifLord]

That average side had peak Robben and Van Persie though.

That 2014 side was pretty average and if it wasn't for Strootman getting injured and LVG changing tactics/tinkering with subs I doubt you'd even get to the 3rd place

1 Jasper Cillessen goalkeeper, Ajax
2 Ron Vlaar defender, Aston Villa
3 Stefan de Vrij defender, Feyenoord
4 Bruno Martins Indi defender, Feyenoord
5 Daley Blind defender, Ajax
6 Nigel de Jong midfielder, Milan
7 Daryl Janmaat defender, Feyenoord
8 Jonathan de Guzmán midfielder, Swansea City
9 Robin van Persie (captain) forward, Manchester United
10 Wesley Sneijder midfielder, Galatasaray
11 Arjen Robben midfielder, Bayern Munich
12 Paul Verhaegh defender, Augsburg
13 Joël Veltman defender, Ajax
14 Terence Kongolo defender, Feyenoord
15 Dirk Kuyt forward, Fenerbahce
16 Jordy Clasie midfielder, Feyenoord
17 Jeremain Lens, forward, Dynamo Kyiv
18 Leroy Fer midfielder, Norwich City
19 Klaas-Jan Huntelaar forward, Schalke
20 Georginio Wijnaldum midfielder, PSV Eindhoven
21 Memphis Depay midfielder, PSV Eindhoven
22 Michel Vorm goalkeeper, Swansea City
23 Tim Krul goalkeeper, Newcastle United

 

[KirkDuyt]

That 2014 side was pretty average and if it wasn't for Strootman getting injured and LVG changing tactics/tinkering with subs I doubt you'd even get to the 3rd place

1 Jasper Cillessen goalkeeper, Ajax
2 Ron Vlaar defender, Aston Villa
3 Stefan de Vrij defender, Feyenoord
4 Bruno Martins Indi defender, Feyenoord
5 Daley Blind defender, Ajax
6 Nigel de Jong midfielder, Milan
7 Daryl Janmaat defender, Feyenoord
8 Jonathan de Guzmán midfielder, Swansea City
9 Robin van Persie (captain) forward, Manchester United
10 Wesley Sneijder midfielder, Galatasaray
11 Arjen Robben midfielder, Bayern Munich
12 Paul Verhaegh defender, Augsburg
13 Joël Veltman defender, Ajax
14 Terence Kongolo defender, Feyenoord
15 Dirk Kuyt forward, Fenerbahce
16 Jordy Clasie midfielder, Feyenoord
17 Jeremain Lens, forward, Dynamo Kyiv
18 Leroy Fer midfielder, Norwich City
19 Klaas-Jan Huntelaar forward, Schalke
20 Georginio Wijnaldum midfielder, PSV Eindhoven
21 Memphis Depay midfielder, PSV Eindhoven
22 Michel Vorm goalkeeper, Swansea City
23 Tim Krul goalkeeper, Newcastle United

Yeah for sure, Van Gaal made some key decision that tournament, most notably the Krul sub. We were mostly shit bar that insane Spain game though.

 

[FootballHQ]

Their forward options are pretty bad these days.

Memphis-Fair enough he's done well at Lyon and most of their good play came through him but we'll see if he can do it at another top level team now, will likely be just squad player at Barca.

Malen- Pretty sure he's massively rated for his goals and assists in Dutch league but didn't look great in this tournament and his sitter decided everything. Will see if he comes to prem and makes impact or is just another Bergwijn who scores a few goals but is nothing special.

Quincy Promes- Seems to have been around forever as squad option in tournaments, does he still play in Russia? Was half expecting them to put on Ryan Babel aswell who was another they kept calling up for years.

Berghuis- Lasted about six months at Watford. Again gone back to Dutch league and done well but pretty telling team from major league hasn't come in for him. Coming up to 30 now so not long term option anymore.

Weghorst- Good scoring record for Wolfsburg but Holland always feels uneasy playing a big targetman with limited movement, feels like it's going against the Cruyff template so not used that much.

Look at the forward options they had for Euro 2000. Kluivert, Bergkamp, two world class forwards in top two leagues, Roy Makaay (just scored 20 + to win Deportivo the title) and Van Hooijdonk who's career had stalled at the time after Forest strike but then did very well at Feyenoord in the years after.

Overmars the key wide option at the time although he'd started to decline at that point and didn't make much impact at Barca so one sale Arsenal got right.

Not called for that tournament was Hasselbaink who's just scored 20 odd for Atletico Madrid and moved to Chelsea while Van Nistelrooy would've been in but did his ACL. Incredible they didn't make the 2002 world cup straight after.

It's a problem as they still produce good enough CBs and the odd world class midfielder.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

If you go down to 10 men it's not optimal, but jesus christ almighty it's still a knock-out stage of a tournament and with 0-0 there's all to play for. If you're just going to give up like that you don't deserve shit, so well done to Czechia I guess, at least they wanted it.

Not to disrespect the Dutch league but winning it is not necessarily indicative of a top manager.

In all fairness and putting my current hate for the guy aside, he did a fine job at Ajax given they hadn't won the league in 7 years before he took over and were restructuring their financials meaning there was barely any transfer budget. There are some notorious bottle jobs though, for example they got trashed 5-1 (!) in the Dutch cup final against a minor team one season, they also lost the league in his last season after drawing against an already relegated team on the final day.

Really makes you wonder if he even considered preparing this team mentally and tactically for a situation like tonight's, probably not, and that's a massive failure. You saw how big the impact of VAR was at the 2018 World Cup, and red cards and other weird stuff like very soft penalty kicks can happen at any moment. Seems like a guy who's good at implementing the typical Dutch style of play into a team, but can't get any exceptional emotional connection with players or install that real believe you need at a tournament. Like I said, I just cannot believe a team just gives up like that after losing one player while it's still a draw.

Qualifiers for the Qatar WC haven't been smooth so far either, so we might be in for a massive clusterfeck.

 

[FootballHQ]

Yeah think it will be a struggle for you to win the group. Turkey were terrible in this euros but they won 4-2 v you and also won comfortably in Norway so uphill task to finish 1st and then you're in the play off scrap with about 10 other teams for 3 places I think and there's usually some decent other teams who finish 2nd in world cup groups.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Yeah think it will be a struggle for you to win the group. Turkey were terrible in this euros but they won 4-2 v you and also won comfortably in Norway so uphill task to finish 1st and then you're in the play off scrap with about 10 other teams for 3 places I think and there's usually some decent other teams who finish 2nd in world cup groups.

If we feck off De Boer we should qualify. There's just a form of uncertainty since De Boer took over. We never win stuff, but at least we go down in flames normally, instead of this drab fecming garbage ball we play now.

I vote for Peter Bosz. What's he up to.

 

[Stadjer]

If we feck off De Boer we should qualify. There's just a form of uncertainty since De Boer took over. We never win stuff, but at least we go down in flames normally, instead of this drab fecming garbage ball we play now.

I vote for Peter Bosz. What's he up to.

Bosz just signed for Lyon. Would be my dream option too but not likely.

 

[Cheimoon]

If we feck off De Boer we should qualify. There's just a form of uncertainty since De Boer took over. We never win stuff, but at least we go down in flames normally, instead of this drab fecming garbage ball we play now.

I vote for Peter Bosz. What's he up to.

Lyon's new coach. How about Van den Brom? (Just to continue my tradition of bringing him when talking about Dutch coaches.)

 

[KirkDuyt]

Lyon's new coach. How about Van den Brom? (Just to continue my tradition of bringing him when talking about Dutch coaches.)

Ehh, don't really like him as a coach, he seems like a bit of an arse. He's an Eredivisie level trainer if you ask me.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

If we feck off De Boer we should qualify. There's just a form of uncertainty since De Boer took over. We never win stuff, but at least we go down in flames normally, instead of this drab fecming garbage ball we play now.

I vote for Peter Bosz. What's he up to.

De Boer should just feck off into anonymity, maybe he can try to revive his career at AZ Alkmaar in two years or something. Realistically we haven't done anything inspiring for like 8 years now except a good stint under Koeman. Massive failures whether under respectable coaches like Hiddink and Advocaat or clueless idiots like Danny Blind. And no matter how bad we've been, there's always this post match narrative that we've been the better side and 'dominated', seems like some sick absurdistic comedy sketch really

I have no idea how to fix this, like Football HQ said, if we don't finish 1st in this WC qualifiers it might be game over.

How about Van den Brom? (Just to continue my tradition of bringing him when talking about Dutch coaches.)

I'll see you and raise you one Michel Preud'homme. Now that guy was proper wild at FC Twente for the one season

 

[Cheimoon]

De Boer should just feck off into anonymity, maybe he can try to revive his career at AZ Alkmaar in two years or something.

Can't he go to Utrecht or Vitesse or something then? AZ have something good going with progressive coaches. Who'd want to wish De Boer onto them?

I really wasn't serious about Van de Brom btw.

 

[KirkDuyt]

I wish I was into cycling or F1. Or better yet, field hockey, we're amazing at that dumb game.

 

[FootballHQ]

Would Netherlands ever consider foreign manager? Pascal Jansen is part English I see.

Pretty slim pickings as Den Haag surely wouldn't quite Ajax to manage Holland now, Schmidt manages PSV and Feyenoord have Advocaat who I think is retiring finally so no obvious candidate from top dutch teams.

Van Nistelrooy on the bench today but not managed anyone yet, Kluivert has I think but would be huge gamble.

Think your best bet tbh is to wait until Koeman leaves Barca and take him back, might be halfway through next season so might still get you to world cup as you looked far more cohesive in your play than under De Boer.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Would Netherlands ever consider foreign manager?

Pretty slim pickings as Den Haag surely wouldn't quite Ajax to manage Holland now, Schmidt manages PSV and Feyenoord have Advocaat who I think is retiring finally so no obvious candidate from top dutch teams.

Van Nistelrooy on the bench today but not managed anyone yet, Kluivert has I think but would be huge gamble.

Think your best bet tbh is to wait until Koeman leaves Barca and take him back, might be halfway through next season so might still get you to world cup as you looked far more cohesive in your play than under De Boer.

Think we're too proud for that, since we're still convinced we alone, know how to play football. Even though we've win feck all in our entire history.

'kin hell, I hate getting eliminated from a tournament.

 

[Cheimoon]

I wish I was into cycling or F1. Or better yet, field hockey, we're amazing at that dumb game.

Korfball, that's where it's really at if you're looking for Dutch glory! So rarely played outside the Netherlands and Belgium that other languages don't even have their own word for it. (Except for Indonesia, going by Wikipedia. And it seems to be called 'Dutch basketball' in Lithuanian.)

 

[Henrik Larsson]

I really wasn't serious about Van de Brom btw.

I know! Though I was dead serious about Michel Preud'homme, I mean just google a picture of him and look into his eyes, he will makes us champions of the world.

 

[Cheimoon]

I know! Though I was dead serious about Michel Preud'homme, I mean just google a picture of him and look into his eyes, he will makes us champions of the world.

Had a pretty good coaching career in the Netherlands and Belgium actually; but I think he has retired. On the other hand, if Hiddink and Advocaat can continue until they're 90 years old, there's no excuse for Preud'homme. Which makes me think that the obvious option is Louis van Gaal of course.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

'kin hell, I hate getting eliminated from a tournament.

I was at a small watch party in someone's backyard and decided to go home after we went 1-0 down. It was only a ten minute drive back yet I saw three different people/vehicles getting into road rage incidents with each other (no cap).

 

[KirkDuyt]

I was at a small watch party in someone's backyard and decided to go home after we went 1-0 down. It was only a ten minute drive back yet I saw three different people/vehicles getting into road rage incidents with each other (no cap).

Someone's girlfriend said after the 1-0, "ah, but it's nice for the Czechs"!

They will put it on her tombstone.

 

[Henrik Larsson]

Someone's girlfriend said after the 1-0, "ah, but it's nice for the Czechs"!

They will put it on her tombstone.

Yeah I heard some of my friends female partners say some outrageous stuff tonight as well and I just zoned out and figured it was time to go. One kept screaming it couldn't be a red card for De Ligt because the ref had already given him yellow (Right? Right?! RIGHT?!)

Had a pretty good coaching career in the Netherlands and Belgium actually; but I think he has retired. On the other hand, if Hiddink and Advocaat can continue until they're 90 years old, there's no excuse for Preud'homme. Which makes me think that the obvious option is Louis van Gaal of course.

Or we should bring back this guy (what's that in his right pocket by the way?)

Spoiler

 

[TheReligion]

Perhaps Southgate was right when he was saying the Czechs are a very good and well organised team when England beat them?

 

[Cheimoon]

Or we should bring back this guy (what's that in his right pocket by the way?)

Spoiler

It's kinda incredible that he's the most successful Dutch NT coach since Michels. But anyway.

Perhaps Southgate was right when he was saying the Czechs are a very good and well organised team when England beat them?

Is it allowed to say positive things about Southgate these days? Be aware though that, if you can be positive about Southgate on this quote, it means something positive (or at least: less negative) about De Boer as well, and I think you're definitely out of bounds with that.

 

[TheReligion]

It's kinda incredible that he's the most successful Dutch NT coach since Michels. But anyway.

Is it allowed to say positive things about Southgate these days? Be aware though that, if you can be positive about Southgate on this quote, it means something positive (or at least: less negative) about De Boer as well, and I think you're definitely out of bounds with that.

You've lost me

 

[anant]

Would Netherlands ever consider foreign manager? Pascal Jansen is part English I see.

Pretty slim pickings as Den Haag surely wouldn't quite Ajax to manage Holland now, Schmidt manages PSV and Feyenoord have Advocaat who I think is retiring finally so no obvious candidate from top dutch teams.

Van Nistelrooy on the bench today but not managed anyone yet, Kluivert has I think but would be huge gamble.

Think your best bet tbh is to wait until Koeman leaves Barca and take him back, might be halfway through next season so might still get you to world cup as you looked far more cohesive in your play than under De Boer.

I think their plan sometime around 2014 was Hiddink->Blind-> Van Nistelrooy or something like that. Obviously it all blew up when they had a terrible start to Euros qualifying under Hiddink and Blind was worse than his predecessor.

I dont think they have a lot of options if they continue with their tradition of signing Dutch managers only. And as you rightly pointed out, Koeman apart, I dont see a decent name at the moment for them.

 

[Cheimoon]

You've lost me

No worries, there wasn't anything valuable to be found in my post there.

 

[TheReligion]

No worries, there wasn't anything valuable to be found in my post there.

Ha ha sorry. I guess my point was when England beat them people were moaning it wasn't by more goals. Southgate said they are a very good tactically disciplined side and the tournament top scorers didn't create many real chances today and were knocked out by them pretty comfortably.

I'm not Southgates biggest fan but maybe he's not quite as daft at people make out?

 

[Cheimoon]

Ha ha sorry. I guess my point was when England beat them people were moaning it wasn't by more goals. Southgate said they are a very good tactically disciplined side and the tournament top scorers didn't create many real chances today and were knocked out by them pretty comfortably.

I'm not Southgates biggest fan but maybe he's not quite as daft at people make out?

Oh god, now I have to explain my joke! Just be warned that it wasn't all that funny in the first place, and it'll be even lamer now...

Anyway, I got that - I was just joking that I'm not sure you're allowed to say anything positive about Southgate given the current climate against him. (Including believing anything he says.) And then that, if you believe Southgate on this, De Boer didn't fail as hard today as everybody's saying - which definitely is nobody wants to hear right now.

I told you there was nothing worth following in my post.

 

[TheReligion]

Oh god, now I have to explain my joke! Just be warned that it wasn't all that funny in the first place, and it'll be even lamer now...

Anyway, I got that - I was just joking that I'm not sure you're allowed to say anything positive about Southgate given the current climate against him. (Including believing anything he says.) And then that, if you believe Southgate on this, De Boer didn't fail as hard today as everybody's saying - which definitely is nobody wants to hear right now.

I told you there was nothing worth following in my post.

Ahh gotcha!

You really want rid of Frank? He was very reactive today but I think the players didn't show much passion/leadership either. Was bad all round and just a sad way to finish.

 

[Wonder Pigeon]

Would van Bronckhorst be an option at all?

 

[Cheimoon]

Ahh gotcha!

You really want rid of Frank? He was very reactive today but I think the players didn't show much passion/leadership either. Was bad all round and just a sad way to finish.

He's just been a big load of nothing and disappointment since he was appointed. Maybe not all that bad per se, but certainly not good, and definitely unable to make the team more than the sum of its parts. His only saving grace is that there isn't really a better Dutch coach available.

 

[TheReligion]

He's just been a big load of nothing and disappointment since he was appointed. Maybe not all that bad per se, but certainly not good, and definitely unable to make the team more than the sum of its parts. His only saving grace is that there isn't really a better Dutch coach available.

Who do you see taking it next?

 

[Cheimoon]

Who do you see taking it next?

Well, that's exactly the thing we were discussing above as well. There isn't really anyone around. Bosz and Slot just started new jobs and I'd think they are anyway rather club coachs. Slot anyway is a little inexperienced maybe. I don't see Ten Hag wanting the national team. And... that's it, probably - except if it's back to the coaching retirement home to try and get Advocaat, Hiddink or Van Gaal to return.

 

[WeePat]

Either he lets him past and potentially score or he risks the red. Either way he's looking foolish.

Surely you let him pass. No guarantee he'll score. Not like it was an open net situation. Taking a red is such a bigger mountain to climb for the team than going a goal down. I think he just panicked.

 

[Pentagruel]

Ahh gotcha!

You really want rid of Frank? He was very reactive today but I think the players didn't show much passion/leadership either. Was bad all round and just a sad way to finish.

Honestly I don’t understand how anyone wouldn’t want rid of him at this point. I don’t think anyone wanted him in the first place, as his last three jobs, Inter, Crystal Palace and Atlanta FC (that’s Atlanta of the MLS, not Atalanta!) were colossal failures where he was unceremoniously sacked posthaste.

With the Dutch national team he again failed. He lost to Turkey 4-2 in WC qualifiers which already puts us in jeopardy of missing the tournament (Turkey failed to win a game at this Euros), had a string of pitiful results in friendlys, and has now gone out meekly to an organized but very average Czech side while his team consists of a defensive core from mostly top clubs in Europe, two top class midfielders and a sprinkling of mildly above average attacking options. Not only did he lose, but basically he let the opponents always dictate the play, including the group stages, despite having superior talent available. To top it all off he makes terrible in game decisions like the substitutions versus Ukraine when the game was in our control, and today taking off Malen after De Ligt was sent off, our most dangerous player along with Dumfries, for a less capable, less dangerous counter attacking player in Promes. Basically Czech knows we can’t score anymore because our biggest threat on the counter is no longer there. We can only try and defend and hope we can take it to penalties or something. Pathetic.

With all that said, the players themselves also were quite pitiful, with no energy or fight. De Ligt makes an idiotic mistake to get sent off, deservedly, right after Malen nonchalantly misses a sitter. No one else, except perhaps Dumfries showed the fight necessary to drag themselves out of the hole they dug. They should be ashamed of the performance. But at the end of the day, it’s on the leader, the coach, for not getting more then the sum of the parts. He should be gone yesterday. The only reason he isn’t, is because we don’t know who else to choose to replace him.

 

[bond19821982]

LVG would've done better with this squad. Shame he isn't available.

 

[berbatrick]

Yeah for sure, Van Gaal made some key decision that tournament, most notably the Krul sub. We were mostly shit bar that insane Spain game though.

The other group stage games and the 3rd place playoff were entertaining, though of course not even close to that level.
The KO games were total shit though, don't remember anything other than them going to penalties. Was there even a single goal scored ...

 

[VorZakone]

Who do you see taking it next?

Depends on whether the Dutch FA are open to a foreign coach. If not I think they'll keep De Boer for now.

 

[KirkDuyt]

Everyone's laughing at us in the papers. Well deserved too. God we were rubbish.

I can't stop watching that Malen chance though. If only you had scored you numpty.

 

[Siorac]

Hungary punching far, far above their weight in their games in Budapest.

Hey, our best game was arguably against the Germans and that was in München.

 

[Siorac]

Everyone's laughing at us in the papers. Well deserved too. God we were rubbish.

I can't stop watching that Malen chance though. If only you had scored you numpty.

The Dutch fans I talked to/saw in the stadium yesterday were surprisingly resigned about it all.

They also threw only a few plastic cups' worth of beer on the pitch when De Ligt got sent off.