How bad have our injuries really been this season?

[Zed 101]

I would take issue with the assertion that ETH is NOT responsible for injuries, don't mistake me I am not saying he is to blame for all injuries however there are factors which any manager control which will contribute to the occurrence of injuries:

Training (including fitness training)
Rehabilitation, including when to bring a player back and how many minutes they can play
Playing players with minor injuries
Failing to substitute player when their fitness/energy is low
Signing players prone to regular injuries

All squads will have players who are more or less prone to injuries, the more you expect to rely on players who are prone to injuries, the more injuries they are likely to get.

You can also add that player style linked to team style and the league may lead to more injuries, for for instance Martinez is a high impact player, playing him in a league which is high intensity in a system which is requires pressing in order to win back possession would likely result in a higher occurrence of injuries than if he was playing in a more passive system in a lower intensity league.

Point is that there are things which can be anticipated and to a certain extent mitigated in order to reduce the likelihood of injuries, it is not just me making this up, this is what clubs do, they have player metrics recommending how many minutes they can play based on their fitness.

 

[Grande]

In reality ten hag is the one that is emphasising our injury record at every opportunity and using it as a catch all excuse for why we so often look so poor.

We look to be completely uncoached most games and his excuse will often just be to point at the injuries.

Many of the players that have been missing for prolonged periods appear injury prone e..g Shaw, Mount, varane, martinez so it's not exactly the biggest surprise they keep getting injured especially when they have been rushed back at times

This is short term memory. Ten Hag spent most of the autumn talking about how we have enough good players to get reults regardless, how injuries is not an excuse, how all teams must mange periods of injuries, how we should have the same expectations and goals regardless of a period of injuries. This despite the fact that we were obviously heavily impacted by injuries during the time. He has only changed his tune after half the season had gone and we still are heavily impacted by both previous and current injuries, and it’s clear that it’s suicidal to judge our results and performances without taking injury bonanza into account.

We disn’t look uncoached under the same coach last season barring the first two games. We do this season. The difference is the injuries, not the coach.

Players appear injury prone when they are injured much. That does not make them eligible to play, and doesn’t solve our injury problems. Mount and Varane were not imjury prone prior to coming to United. Shaw has not been injury prone for the last couple of years until last season.

Pretending that injuries are not a huge part of the explanation for the difference between last season and this season, is just plain illogical and unmathematical. The interesting questions are about what are the reasons for our excessive problems and how to remedy it.

 

[Grande]

I would take issue with the assertion that ETH is NOT responsible for injuries, don't mistake me I am not saying he is to blame for all injuries however there are factors which any manager control which will contribute to the occurrence of injuries:

Training (including fitness training)
Rehabilitation, including when to bring a player back and how many minutes they can play
Playing players with minor injuries
Failing to substitute player when their fitness/energy is low
Signing players prone to regular injuries

All squads will have players who are more or less prone to injuries, the more you expect to rely on players who are prone to injuries, the more injuries they are likely to get.

You can also add that player style linked to team style and the league may lead to more injuries, for for instance Martinez is a high impact player, playing him in a league which is high intensity in a system which is requires pressing in order to win back possession would likely result in a higher occurrence of injuries than if he was playing in a more passive system in a lower intensity league.

Point is that there are things which can be anticipated and to a certain extent mitigated in order to reduce the likelihood of injuries, it is not just me making this up, this is what clubs do, they have player metrics recommending how many minutes they can play based on their fitness.

This is to me a very reasonable post, and I hope the coaching and medical staff will make a thorough evaluation of how United has become so decimated this season. As you point out, there are many reasons, not one single. But we need to learn from it in terms of shifting players, medical preparations, training loads, preseason travelling, the lot.

Getting rid of some of the players not mentally able to play for us (Sancho, Greenwood, Martial) also seems important, but the issue with changing too many players too fast is that we have to fill our team with players from the lower shelves without having the groundwork laid even for making smart cheap deals with the right profile.

Is it the unsuited squad or the injury bonanza that is the biggest factor this season? Neither - it’s the combination of both, obviously.

 

[Zed 101]

As I remember when he first came to the club did he not say that he would not blame injuries, I cannot find it now because of all the news about him blaming injuries

 

[Bertie Wooster]

We still lead the ACL table with three at least (Mings, Buendia and Kamara).

Only thing I'd say with Man. United is you pretty much had all your attackers available all season, can't think of any games Fernandes or Rashford have missed and Garnacho also available but just wasn't being picked much in the first six weeks. Hojlund also available from September right up to the injury he picked up a few weeks ago.

When I think of all of Chelsea (Nkunku), Newcastle (Barnes/Isak/Wilson) and Brighton (Joao Pedro/Mitoma) they've had more disruption in the final third.

Martial has been out all season injured.

Also, we were pretty much 'forced' into loaning Greenwood out by media / social media reaction. Pretty sure the club would have preferred to be able to treat it like Brighton, Tottenham and Arsenal did and carry on selecting him as they did their players.

Also, Sancho unavailable for much of it due to disciplinary reasons. All right, more self inflicted absence by the club than injuries or the Greenwood situation (which they were left with no other option), but depending on the rights and wrongs of it still far from ideal to have a big money option like that on the sidelines.

Also, as you acknowledged, Hojlund arrived with an injury and so missed pre-season and the start of it - no doubt playing some role in his lack of PL goals for the first few months. Then we lose him again just as he'd found his sharpness and confidence and started scoring.

We've been far more screwed with defensive injuries, but could certainly have had a lot more attacking options if circumstances had been different.

 

[Zed 101]

Martial has been out all season injured.

Also, we were pretty much 'forced' into loaning Greenwood out by media / social media reaction. Pretty sure the club would have preferred to be able to treat it like Brighton, Tottenham and Arsenal did and carry on selecting him as they did their players.

Also, Sancho unavailable for much of it due to disciplinary reasons. All right, more self inflicted absence by the club than injuries or the Greenwood situation (which they were left with no other option), but depending on the rights and wrongs of it still far from ideal to have a big money option like that on the sidelines.

Also, as you acknowledged, Hojlund arrived with an injury and so missed pre-season and the start of it - no doubt playing some role in his lack of PL goals for the first few months. Then we lose him again just as he'd found his sharpness and confidence and started scoring.

We've been far more screwed with defensive injuries, but could certainly have had a lot more attacking options if circumstances had been different.

This is a big plus

 

[Bertie Wooster]

This is a big plus

It will be a big plus if we finally upgrade on him this summer. But until that upgrade, we needed Martial to be available and offering some depth in that #9 role. He's not great, and we definitely need to move on from him this summer, but until that time he's an adequate enough option when fit and we'd have definitely benefitted from having him available during Hojlund's absences.

 

[NicolaSacco]

Transfermarket does a nice graphic table showing all absences.

https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/manchester-united/ausfallzeiten/verein/985?reldata=GB1&2023

Bruno Fernandes is always available, it’s crazy.

He played 266 games whilst at Utd (for club and country) over a period of 1498 days (exactly 214 weeks) between his debut and the Everton game. That’s a game every 3.2 days (just under 65 games per year) for over 4 years. I can’t believe that that is healthy, it’s not like he’s subbed on (or off) very often at all.

 

[Zed 101]

It will be a big plus if we finally upgrade on him this summer. But until that upgrade, we needed Martial to be available and offering some depth in that #9 role. He's not great, and we definitely need to move on from him this summer, but until that time he's an adequate enough option when fit and we'd have definitely benefitted from having him available during Hojlund's absences.

I would disagree, would rather play with 10 men than have Martial

 

[Beachryan]

Bruno Fernandes is always available, it’s crazy.

He played 266 games whilst at Utd (for club and country) over a period of 1498 days (exactly 214 weeks) between his debut and the Everton game. That’s a game every 3.2 days (just under 65 games per year) for over 4 years. I can’t believe that that is healthy, it’s not like he’s subbed on (or off) very often at all.

That's absolutely incredible. Surely no other outfield player has ever had 4 years at that clip?! I certainly can't think of any.

 

[MadDogg]

Only thing I'd say with Man. United is you pretty much had all your attackers available all season, can't think of any games Fernandes or Rashford have missed and Garnacho also available but just wasn't being picked much in the first six weeks. Hojlund also available from September right up to the injury he picked up a few weeks ago.

Yes and no.

On the one hand, Rashford, Garnacho and Bruno have been available pretty much all season. And Hojlund has 'only' missed eight PL games.

On the other hand, Martial has missed half the season and his injury issues means he struggled to play any significant minutes before that. Antony had his legal issues in Brazil and that is probably linked to how shit he's been this season. Sancho basically didn't play this season after throwing his toys out of the pram and being incredibly unprofessional. We seemed to plan to bring Greenwood back in this season only for the outrage to cause a late change. Amad missed half the season. If we include Mount who was playing in quite an attacking role, he's basically missed all season.

So the four that are now first choice have been mostly fit. But we've had major issues throughout the rest of the attackers, admittedly some of them being self-inflicted by the club or issues outside of football rather than injury.

From memory, there was a period earlier in the season where we were down to (considering where each player would have been ranked at the start of the season) our 4th and 6th choice central defenders, 5th choice left back and 5th choice right winger.

 

[NicolaSacco]

That's absolutely incredible. Surely no other outfield player has ever had 4 years at that clip?! I certainly can't think of any.

I’d agree- you are always in Europe, ima country with 2 domestic cup competitions, and a 20 team top division, plus playing for a national team who frequently go deep into competitions. That’s virtually impossible to match I’d think; I’m really not sure who else could even try to match that.

 

[bosnian_red]

Yes and no.

On the one hand, Rashford, Garnacho and Bruno have been available pretty much all season. And Hojlund has 'only' missed eight PL games.

On the other hand, Martial has missed half the season and his injury issues means he struggled to play any significant minutes before that. Antony had his legal issues in Brazil and that is probably linked to how shit he's been this season. Sancho basically didn't play this season after throwing his toys out of the pram and being incredibly unprofessional. We seemed to plan to bring Greenwood back in this season only for the outrage to cause a late change. Amad missed half the season. If we include Mount who was playing in quite an attacking role, he's basically missed all season.

So the four that are now first choice have been mostly fit. But we've had major issues throughout the rest of the attackers, admittedly some of them being self-inflicted by the club or issues outside of football rather than injury.

From memory, there was a period earlier in the season where we were down to (considering where each player would have been ranked at the start of the season) our 4th and 6th choice central defenders, 5th choice left back and 5th choice right winger.

Eh, before the season I'd say the majority on here would have viewed Rashford, Hojlund, Garnacho and Bruno as the best front 4, just needed to see who would play where as Garnacho wasn't playing on the right yet. But most of us preferred him to Antony. We just lost the bench this season basically. Our injuries have been focused at left back (or things that affect LB), and squad players. The CB injuries have been bad, but at the same time I don't think the CBs we've had to play have ever actually been a problem. They're all fine and the problem was elsewhere when they've played. Lack of consistency hurts though.

 

[top1whoisman]

Yep pretty much!

Hasn't Amad been on the bench since December and Ten Hag really hasn't used him that much even as a sub so suggests he just doesn't think he's ready for week in week out prem football. Unusued sub in 6 prem matches played since 30th December.

Will get more chance under the next manager.

January. Meaning he missed the first five months of the season. There’s not one position we’ve had all players available all season. Perhaps LW.

 

[DJ_21]

Well how many times have we been able to field a full strength defence this season?

 

[Santos J]

Bruno Fernandes is always available, it’s crazy.

He played 266 games whilst at Utd (for club and country) over a period of 1498 days (exactly 214 weeks) between his debut and the Everton game. That’s a game every 3.2 days (just under 65 games per year) for over 4 years. I can’t believe that that is healthy, it’s not like he’s subbed on (or off) very often at all.

That's fecking mental

 

[Oranges038]

Bruno Fernandes is always available, it’s crazy.

He played 266 games whilst at Utd (for club and country) over a period of 1498 days (exactly 214 weeks) between his debut and the Everton game. That’s a game every 3.2 days (just under 65 games per year) for over 4 years. I can’t believe that that is healthy, it’s not like he’s subbed on (or off) very often at all.

As is Dalot, but Bruno is something of a freak athlete. Must be something in that Portuguese water. Look at Pepe still bossing it in the CL at 41.

Need more Portugese, preferably less whiny ones if they exist.

 

[MadDogg]

Well how many times have we been able to field a full strength defence this season?

Three times in the league and once in the FA Cup.

 

[thisisnottaken1]

I think this just goes to show that while injuries aren’t an excuse and not the be all and end all (as well as some weird things by the manager such as leaving Varane out when fit), they definitely are part of why we’re failing. The medical department at the club is an omnishambles, and hopefully with INEOS in it will be vastly improved after years of neglect by the Glazers.

Feel like we burnt out last season by going hard in all comps + mid-season WC and have never recovered.

Both the injuries we've suffered this time around, and drop-offs in player form, seem to have hampered those most central to last year's system.

Casemiro, Shaw and Martinez can't stay fit and Bruno, Varane, Eriksen and Rashford look shadows of the players they were last season. Even formerly reliable options such as AWB and Dalot have been impacted.

Maybe we're due a good season next year by this logic.

I’d hope so. Considering how catastrophic this season has been.

 

[Bondi77]

Well how many times have we been able to field a full strength defence this season?

We fielded a full strength one against Liverpool last season and that didn't go too well.

 

[NicolaSacco]

I think there’s abb

As is Dalot, but Bruno is something of a freak athlete. Must be something in that Portuguese water. Look at Pepe still bossing it in the CL at 41.

Need more Portugese, preferably less whiny ones if they exist.

I think there’s an idea body type for this kind of thing (longevity and availability), and Bruno has it. His pace will never be central to his game, he won’t wreck his joints by playing two games a week for years on end, that someone like Lukaku would do. I think he’ll be one of those players (modric is also one) where they’ll be pretty much as good at 35 as then were at 30.

 

[DJ_21]

We fielded a full strength one against Liverpool last season and that didn't go too well.

That wasn’t the question though… we also finished 3rd and won a trophy that year.

 

[DJ_21]

Three times in the league and once in the FA Cup.

Thank you. That’s terrible.

 

[MadDogg]

Thank you. That’s terrible.

And two of those were the first two games of the season when Martinez was obviously still struggling.

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

The problem is the squad. We have such bad replacements or no replacements at all. We find ourselves having to switch a number of players from their best position because one certain player is injured.
Take Höjlund for example: means we move Rashford from the left (his best position) play him as striker. We swich Garnacho to the left (he's better on the right) and play Antony (who's no good anywhere) on the right.
We lose Martinez and we have nobody anywhere near his level to take over. Same with Shaw!
If we have a fit Shaw, Martinez, and Höjlund (only 3 players) we reach top 4. Without them midtable at best!
Neither Liverpool, City, Arsenal, Spurs, Villa, or even Chelsea have that problem!

Yep. This is the important context that many ignore. Ten Hag gets the blame but he’s been dealt a truly terrible hand getting this squad. His signings (bar Antony) have improved us and are among our best players, but they haven’t been fit nearly enough and their replacements are mid table level at best.

 

[Matt851]

This is short term memory. Ten Hag spent most of the autumn talking about how we have enough good players to get reults regardless, how injuries is not an excuse, how all teams must mange periods of injuries, how we should have the same expectations and goals regardless of a period of injuries. This despite the fact that we were obviously heavily impacted by injuries during the time. He has only changed his tune after half the season had gone and we still are heavily impacted by both previous and current injuries, and it’s clear that it’s suicidal to judge our results and performances without taking injury bonanza into account.

We disn’t look uncoached under the same coach last season barring the first two games. We do this season. The difference is the injuries, not the coach.

Players appear injury prone when they are injured much. That does not make them eligible to play, and doesn’t solve our injury problems. Mount and Varane were not imjury prone prior to coming to United. Shaw has not been injury prone for the last couple of years until last season.

Pretending that injuries are not a huge part of the explanation for the difference between last season and this season, is just plain illogical and unmathematical. The interesting questions are about what are the reasons for our excessive problems and how to remedy it.

Claiming our problems this season are just down to injuries is deluded. It also assumes we were better last season than we actually were. We were pretty good for a maximum of half last season in a weak league. The rest of the season we struggled and were hard to watch with little in the way of a coherent style. This season is little different.

So it's really hard to see why we should have faith ten hag could do better next season.

Other coaches have experienced injuries and been able to keep some sense of a coherent structure out of possession and a plan in possession

 

[Matt851]

Yep. This is the important context that many ignore. Ten Hag gets the blame but he’s been dealt a truly terrible hand getting this squad. His signings (bar Antony) have improved us and are among our best players, but they haven’t been fit nearly enough and their replacements are mid table level at best.

But his signings haven't really improved us at least not by much. Martinez has been good when fit and hojlund looks promising but that's pretty much it. Casemiro and eriksen were good for all of 6 months, Mount was a bizarre signing, Antony one of the worst signings in history, onana has barely improved on de gear and malacia is meh. The squad has quite possibly got worse under his watch despite us spending hundreds of millions

 

[TrustInJanuzaj]

But his signings haven't really improved us at least not by much. Martinez has been good when fit and hojlund looks promising but that's pretty much it. Casemiro and eriksen were good for all of 6 months, Mount was a bizarre signing, Antony one of the worst signings in history, onana has barely improved on de gear and malacia is meh. The squad has quite possibly got worse under his watch despite us spending hundreds of millions

Agree to disagree. Only looks that way if you take the worst version of his signings.

 

[Grande]

Pretending that injuries are not a huge part of the explanation for the difference between last season and this season, is just plain illogical and unmathematical.

Claiming our problems this season are just down to injuries is deluded.

So which of these statements are illogical and which are deluded?

 

[Maticmaker]

Reports of Argentina calling up Lisandro Martinez to their squad, despite him being on United's injury list, what's going on?

 

[ShinjiNinja26]

Reports of Argentina calling up Lisandro Martinez to their squad, despite him being on United's injury list, what's going on?

He won’t be playing. He’ll continue his rehab with the Argentina squad. I’m sure this happened last season as well.

 

[leontas]

I wonder how many of the injuries are of ETH’s own making. He’s clearly rushed back some players from injuries (see: Martinez). Also many of our injuries don’t seem to have been a result of tackles on the pitch but have rather come in between games.

 

[Maticmaker]

He won’t be playing. He’ll continue his rehab with the Argentina squad. I’m sure this happened last season as well.

Yes, sounds reasonable, suppose he gets a trip home paid for by Argentina

 

[ROFLUTION]

Bruno Fernandes is always available, it’s crazy.

He played 266 games whilst at Utd (for club and country) over a period of 1498 days (exactly 214 weeks) between his debut and the Everton game. That’s a game every 3.2 days (just under 65 games per year) for over 4 years. I can’t believe that that is healthy, it’s not like he’s subbed on (or off) very often at all.

It’s ridiculous. Shows that he knows how to avoid injury.

our medical staff and the players could possibly learn a lot from him.

 

[JediSith]

I think we’ve been very unlucky with the length of injuries but also the players who have gotten injured and their importance to ETH style of play.

From memory: Martinez, Shaw, Varane , Casemiro, Mainoo, have all been out for 6 or more weeks, at times all at the same time.

 

[Lexicon Red Devil]

Worst season in terms of injuries since we had to play Carrick and Fletcher in defence.

I think a lot of us could see this coming last season though when ETH refused to rotate at all no matter the occasion. Was pretty obvious players would suffer with a world cup shoehorned in as well. Our players aren't exactly the most durable bunch in any case, apart from the few obvious exceptions.

 

[NLunited]

Our medical department must be at fault: and players not taking good care of themselves.

Reguilon‘s loan was ended because Ten Hag was told Shaw and Malacia would be available in January.

I think we need to upgrade the medical staff.

 

[NewGlory]

It's been horrible, but the player I have missed the most is Licha. He is pure fire. Without him, we sometimes play ok, sometimes play horrible, but there is no fire in United without Licha. He is just different and makes people around him different, too.

Martinez has been a HUGE loss, We lost him pretty much for the entire season, too

 

[Red00012]

It’s ridiculous. Shows that he knows how to avoid injury.

our medical staff and the players could possibly learn a lot from him.

Ya Bruno goes around avoiding injuries on purpose while the rest of the squad go out of their way to get injured

 

[ROFLUTION]

Ya Bruno goes around avoiding injuries on purpose while the rest of the squad go out of their way to get injured

He watches after his body and avoids bad tackles that’s the whole point. I highly doubt this is all genetic, though some is. The art of falling the right way in a tackle, how to go into a tackle, if at all. There’s plenty of stuff beyond just being genetically more prone to not be injured. All the big players in history has learned this skill too - Messi, Laudrup, Ronaldo springs to mind.