Stick a fiver in his pocket and we might get £2.50 if were lucky.
How do we sell Harry Maguire?
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At this point he's a liability i honestly doubt anyone would pay £10m for him, I'll be shocked if we get that sum.
For starters I think we all know Haaland costs you more than £100 million. One way or another. More likely £150 million.
But what use is a top striker if the team behind him can't pass the ball? Dortmund only just made top 4 with him last season didn't they? He's not a magic bullet. He still needs service, needs his team mates to work hard, defend properly etc.
I'd much rather some proper scouting and buy three 50 million pound players who get the team functioning as a unit properly first.
Because £150 million on a any player, when the overall team is sub standard, isn't the best use of resources.
Eventually the penny will drop with the club, even if a section of fans keep wanting us to make the same mistake over and over.
Well its a hypothetical... 100m is an example.
Would they have made top 4 without him? Absolutely not. He's been a very successful signing for them.
You're acting like we were battling relegation last season - a player like Haarland could have been the difference between 6th and top 4.
again, another flaw in your logic - there's no guarantee those three £50m players are going to be successful either.
Again, you buy the best players available to you no matter the state of your current team. Nobody would turn Haarland down.
We wouldn't be having this conversation if Maguire had the impact Van Dijk did - i think this is the crux of your logic.
We will see I suppose.
I think it's actually an interesting debate between Marwood and Roux. It's the classic Galactico conundrum and I tend to side with Marwoods point which if I'm correct is that
The team and structure is always the most important however where I think Roux's point is strongest is that ultimately football is also about talent and sometimes even if you don't have the structure, a players value can be deemed so high that it is worth that record spend. I don't care how shit your team is, if you can get a Messi in his prime then you do it. Will he be at the level he got to playing with the likes of Xavi,Iniesta etc highly unlikely however I do think you put Messi anywhere in the world and he finds his way to a big European club eventually.
Ultimately it's not so black and white and there is plenty of other context to the decision of spending big money on a player; the clubs finances, positional need, market factors, marketing factors etc.
especially when we are talking about record fees.
The team and structure is always the most important however where I think Roux's point is strongest is that ultimately football is also about talent and sometimes even if you don't have the structure, a players value can be deemed so high that it is worth that record spend. I don't care how shit your team is, if you can get a Messi in his prime then you do it. Will he be at the level he got to playing with the likes of Xavi,Iniesta etc highly unlikely however I do think you put Messi anywhere in the world and he finds his way to a big European club eventually.
Ultimately it's not so black and white and there is plenty of other context to the decision of spending big money on a player; the clubs finances, positional need, market factors, marketing factors etc.
I'm not arguing that buying high value players is more important than having a balanced team with a solid structure, I'm disputing Marwood's point that these £100m + should always be the last piece of the puzzle - something i completely disagree with - his own example of Rio dispels it because he was the first piece of the puzzle. Van Dijk is another example - Liverpool should have signed him 1/2 seasons earlier and built around him. Even Zidane is another example.
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Depends how you contextualize it. I don't look at Rio as the first piece of the puzzle personally, I think we had a great foundation with Fergie, Keane, Giggs and the 92 kids and Rio was that extra juice. Too good to not try and get. I don't think they should always be the last piece of the puzzle but it's all about the best value for money you can get.
Specifically talking about the defence though - Evra, Vidic, van der Sar all came after Rio. That world class defence doesn't happen without signing Rio first, he was the foundation to build around for the next 13 years.
Before we signed him we had a regular back 5 of Blanc, Silvestre, Brown, Neville in defence and Barthez in goal.
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This is a very old school way of thinking.
You want to primarily be competing for the league. Cups are nice, but 2nd in the league should in theory mean you're not that far off your main goal, whereas a minor cup can mean you simply got lucky with a few draws and blagged through etc.
You can say trophies are what give players the hunger to crack on and do more, and that was probably the case when the FA cup and league cup were seen as high profile, but now they're very much after thoughts.
And it's no given we'd come 7th, win a league cup, and that propels us forward anyway.
Miss out on top 4 and you get stung money wise, players wanting to join etc.
Yes there's a few examples, like Pogba etc joining when we're not in the champs league, but you'll pay an outrageous premium to land them.
You don't spend world record fees on a player to possibly scrape top 4. You can get top 4 by just having a good overall squad. But he only cost Dortmund €20 million anyway.
Lesser transfers possibly not working out isn't a flaw in my particular logic, it's just a real possibility with any tranfer. A £30 million deal might be a flop but the £100 million guy might also flop. Just the way it is.
My argument is that van Dijk wouldn't have had the impact here he's had at Liverpool. Because dropping any centre back into a team that's possibly the worst in the league off the ball will never get the best out of that player. A CB is limited in his impact.
I know this is coming across as a defence of Maguire and for some that's a crime. In part I suppose ot is a defence but its also asking for a bit of common sense when it comes to team building.
Conclusion: Maguire hasn't been good enough to justify his fee.
Also, don't ever spend £85 million on a centre back and put him in a team that's useless off the ball. You'll never get the best of that player.
Yeah Messi in his prime would be the outlier. But he's an all time great.
Here I'm talking about CB's. However good a CB is he needs to team in front of him to do their job.
I've used Rio as the example because even as a much better player than Maguire, he still needed the team around him to improve before you go the best of him.
If we'd have carried on with the likes of Silvestre, Kleberson, Forune around him, Rio's career would now be viewed very differently.
If we'd have spent £85 million on van Dyke instead of Maguire, does anyone really think we'd be that much better off in terms of silverware and league positions?
Van Dijk is getting slated for his performances for the Dutch team with pundits saying he does not contribute anything when he is on the ball and is being overshadowed by his centre back partner Timber the player we should try to sign again to replace Maguire that`s providing Ajax have not completely seen their a*se with us.
Maguire has not been the same player since his arrest in Greece and I still think he has the court case on his mind which is not due to be heard until June 2023. He hasn`t got the skills to cope with the "high press" style of football which wasn`t prevelant when he played for Leicester before we signed him. I think he will end up being signed by a championship side promoted at the end of this season . I think we will be lucky to get £10 million for him
Nonsense - of course you do if you can build a team around that player for the next few years. Zidane (record fee at the time) scraped top 4 and then won Madrid the UCL when he joined.
You're going about this the wrong way - where would be if we DIDN'T sign Rio Ferdinand. United's recent successful history might have been viewed differently if we didn't get him first.
and yes, we'd be much better with van Dijk because he had all the traits of a solid centre back, something Maguire has never had. VVD is a carbon copy of Rio in terms of attributes.
A centre back isn't limited in his impact - look at the difference Martinez has made to our defence, we can actually play out from the back now and set up counters. We look so much more mobile just replacing Maguire with Martinez.
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I reckon he could do well in a back three. Maybe Tottenham could salvage him. But no one is going to enthusiastically move for him. Once a player who costs that much money fails, its time to get rid. We have the same situation with Pepe. A 72m flop that lingers like a dark cloud over the manager and in the squad.
Maguire cant transition to 'backup defender' because of the fee paid for him, so unless he somehow manages to play himself back in the team with amazing performances, you need to move him on. Even if that means a loan or allowing him to leave for free. I know I said Spurs may be able to salvage him given they play a back three. But I actually dont think many clubs would run the risk of him. He carries so much baggage and media attention. He is such an easy target for ridicule and the internet has already memed him like you wouldn't believe. Every mistake he makes the manager will be second guessed, like Ole was, like Southgate is. If Ten Hag puts him back in the team and he makes an error, Ten Hag will get the 'why did you play Maguire' treatment.
The Harry Maguire phenomenon is toxic. United would be so much better if he makes an exit.
Maguire cant transition to 'backup defender' because of the fee paid for him, so unless he somehow manages to play himself back in the team with amazing performances, you need to move him on. Even if that means a loan or allowing him to leave for free. I know I said Spurs may be able to salvage him given they play a back three. But I actually dont think many clubs would run the risk of him. He carries so much baggage and media attention. He is such an easy target for ridicule and the internet has already memed him like you wouldn't believe. Every mistake he makes the manager will be second guessed, like Ole was, like Southgate is. If Ten Hag puts him back in the team and he makes an error, Ten Hag will get the 'why did you play Maguire' treatment.
The Harry Maguire phenomenon is toxic. United would be so much better if he makes an exit.
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Its not just Martinez is it though? We've a new left back, a fully fit Varane, a CM that can pass, McTominay and Daloy playing their best stuff. The front three actually putting some effort in off the ball. You also saw the first two games of the season yes?
You know this of course but there's a determination to boil everything down to Maguire.
We saw United without Rio when he missed big chunks with injury. That backline was still top class and was the mainstay of the team towards the end of Fergie's time even in Rio's absence.
If you think VVD would have made a significant impact over the last 24 month you are to quote Keano 'in cuckoo land"
One player can't transform a malfunctioning team. Of all the supporters in the world, Manchester United supporters should now know this.
If Utd wanted rid of maguire and there isnt any indication that they do at present. His most sensible move would be serieA. The deeper defensive blocks, slower game would suit him. Also the tax breaks for footballers mean he could still command a fairly high salary.
A juventus or roma would be a good move. But it would come down to how much money utd would want in a transfer fee. Glazers wouldnt want to take too much of a loss but i cant see anyone paying more than £40mil for him. Thats on the proviso he has a good 2nd half of the season or a strong world cup.
He isnt suited to ETH football, so does need to go eventually. BUT phil jones is still here years later so i wouldnt be suprised if maguire was as well.
A juventus or roma would be a good move. But it would come down to how much money utd would want in a transfer fee. Glazers wouldnt want to take too much of a loss but i cant see anyone paying more than £40mil for him. Thats on the proviso he has a good 2nd half of the season or a strong world cup.
He isnt suited to ETH football, so does need to go eventually. BUT phil jones is still here years later so i wouldnt be suprised if maguire was as well.
Its not just him of course - but he's played a vital role. First two games Maguire played - remove him and we look much more mobile and secure.
the injuries were towards the end of his career - the years before that he was colossal, about as good as you can get for the price we paid.
Not sure what you're basing that VVD argument on - doesn't seem to be any evidence or stats to back up your point other than a quote from Roy Keane of all people. I think trading VVD for Maguire would have made a massive difference because we could actually attack teams rather than focusing on protecting the two vulnerable centre backs all the time with 2 DMs.
Nobody said one player could transform a team - but they can make a significant difference just as Bruno did when he signed.
You don't need to defend Rio to me, I'm not questioning his quality. Best CB I've seen at United.
But your point was where would that backilne be without Rio.
Answer is we know fully well because we saw that backilne and team without Rio for large periods and it was still great.
Because the collective is always more important than the individual in football.
Three very good players are always more impactful than one brilliant player.
Enjoyed the debate bud.
i think you've lost what you are arguing about. I'm not disputing 3 good players aren't more important that one brilliant player or that the collective is less important that the individual.
I'm saying that one world class, high value player doesn't necessarily have to be the final piece of the puzzle - something your example of Rio has proved because he was the FIRST piece of an entirely new world class defence. This along with many other examples dispels your argument.
On top of the other factors mentioned, we also 'removed' Shaw and Fred from the first two games, are playing the deepest defensive line in the league and are actively avoiding playing out from the back.
Maguire should leave at this point for his own well being but it's far from as simple take him out and we're miles better. We've won 4 narrow games.
Four years went by between us getting Rio and finally putting together a great back 5 and team in general. That four year gap wasn't great was it, even with a player like Rio.
You sign a player for a world record fee today with all the hyper analysis that goes and they have to hit the ground running. They're expected to make a massive impact straight away.
It's a huge pressure now when you cost that type of money and probably a big part pf the reason very few of these transfers actually work out.
The other being my main point, club owners thinking spending big on one player will make the difference when the team as a whole is shite.
Well yeah - Rio wasn't world class from his first day obviously, he was 23yo - we paid a record fee for his potential. Just like City paid for Haaland's potential at 22yo. You pay these huge fees to build a world class team around which is exactly what happened. Chelsea have just done the same with Fofana. Atletico with Joao Felix, PSG with Mbappe etc
You keep dancing around the point by saying Rio was injured, poor in his first season, took 4 years to put a world class defence together etc etc.. when the real fact is that he was the first building block in an entirely successful United defence for nearly a decade - he was the ever present cornerstone. I don't believe we get close to the success we achieved without Rio being signed first and signing him after Vidic/Evra/Edwin etc.
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Thank you.
Aaah...alright. Sorry mate. Bruno Fernandes is a separate issue altogether.
I get your point about the Champions League and more money. But our owners put the brakes on funds once we do end up finishing in top 4. And they always fall short of spending enough to build a title-winning squad. We have spent waaay more cash in the seasons we finished outside top 4 places. Ideally, we should have strengthened considerably after finishing 2nd. Yet we spent quite a lot less and didn't spend the necessary cash. Not to mention wasting a large chunk of budget on a single player re: Pogba, Lukaku, Maguire, Antony, etc. We could have bought 3 great CMs for the amount we spent on just Antony (just giving an example of how bad our top management is).
Also, the lack of planning. Jan '22 we heard we wont be spending any cash to save money for summer and would be ready to make moves in the market. Yet we sacked Rangnick, our scouts, root and branch, and went after Ten Hag's targets. Wasted 3 months chasing De Jong who didn't wanna come at all (recently gave an interview saying the same thing), then spunked on Casemiro because we lost first 2 games badly. Where is the bloody planning here? We wont ever be in a position to challenge for the league with Glazers. Unless we fluke it somehow. So, I'd rather focus on the cups, get favorable draws and get lucky than hope these bunch of wankers would get themselves up to challenge for the league. It ain't happening, am afraid.
On money spent, we're as high as anyone. Our massive problem is jumping between different types of managers, and massively over spending on the wrong players.
However, hindsight is an amazing thing - remember the feel good vibe when Maguire and Wan Bissaka came in? We knew they were big prices, but we all assumed that was those positions sorted for yonks.
Same with numerous other positions.
Even Sancho recently - right winger sorted for a decade. Except he's not a right winger. Is he even a left winger?
You just hope that the latest set of signings survive more than their first couple of months honey moon before entering the same folder as those above!
Casemiro hasn't even had that great first month yet!
By sitting on the bench most of the time in a full season, player will eventually ask to leave. I think that's how you sell Maguire, which coincidentally that this could happen since we have Varane and Lisandro now playing ahead of him. The questions will be how much our board are willing to cut the loose and how much Maguire is willing to take a paycut.
The best case scenario for everyone is ETH helps Maguire improve. There was a period in 2004-2005 when Fedinand went through similar criticism for his gaffes. He was also booed & hated by United supporters for his mistakes and also for not signing a new contract. This turned around when he put his head down and focused on football. That United team also had a mentality that could turn anyone into winners.
Maguire is no where close to Ferdinand level, but the current Maguire is no where close to a normal Maguire level as well. Let's hope he finds his confidence back and starts performing.
Put him on eBay?
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That is the question; Will Maguire take a pay cut to leave or will he become Phil Jones Mk II ?
Surely it’s a matter of time before Varane gets an injury though, and then he’s back in
Great thread. Everyone shouted for these transfers and when they go wrong your putting your own players on ebay! Go buy a half and half scarf is what I say. He isn`t as bad as everyone is making out. OK he his having a real rough time. Like I said earlier he is still up for trial in Greece. I am sure that is weighing on his mind. He never was good enough for a strong United team but we haven`t had a strong United team for over 10 years so it`s a bit like a patchwork quilt nowadays with the Glaziers filling holes every season to appease the fans so they can carry on milking us. If Varane is out which will happen sooner or later Maguire is the only option IMO. He needs to feel wanted again and at the moment the whole world seems to be against him. Booing him Australia was a joke to be honest, probably not our fans but it is a cascade of all this shit that is appearing on here. Get a grip and support your team
Why would that be ?
Varane doesn't have this chequered past with Injuries like some on here would have you believe.
I'm so sick of this Maguire crap, i've never seen a guy get so many chances and screw it up each time. Also ETH and Southgate defending him and saying he'll get back to his best. No he won't.
Sell him to the formula one to be used as an amcro corner. His head bound be good for something
He needs a Michael Owen style brochure.
It boggles the mind. What have they seen in him? He has never won a trophy (and yes, trophies matter). Leicester won the Premier League in 2015. Signed him and finished 9th twice in the 2017/18 & 2018/19 seasons. Sold him off and finished 5th twice in consecutive seasons while winning the FA cup in one of those seasons. He is a perpetual failure yet gets bigged up by everyone. He is NOT a superstar of any kind. Why the feck so much protection is given to him from media, managers, and even top reds? Just because he's English? There doesn't seem to be any other reason. Got a head the size of a small safe yet cant bloody head ANYTHING!
P.S. Ronaldo lost his child last April yet no one would talk about his mental health but poor ol' Maguire got booed and everyone's busy defending his mental state of mind. He is a shit footballer who has been absolutely dreadful running on 18 months+. He deserves every bit of criticism coming his way. Not like he ever accepts its his fault. Its always his fellow CB partner, midfield or the bloody GK to blame for his failures.
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Maguire, AWB and Shaw cost a lot of money both in term of transfer fees and wages. Hope ETH can find a way to improve their form.
ETH has done very well with McT, Dalot, Varane, Rashford and Martial.
ETH has done very well with McT, Dalot, Varane, Rashford and Martial.
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