How do we sell Harry Maguire?

[Messier1994]

Pretty evident today. Looks timid when on the ball, misplaces simple passes and rarely gets long range passes right. Also for someone whos so tall he is so poor when trying to find someone with his head... To be fair it is his first start since injury so maybe i'm being harsh - i mean hes made some good blocks today

How many percent of our possession in a game does Maguire shave off? 10%? 20% What are our possession numbers with and without Maguire?

Maguire is definitely good when we have the backs against the wall. Thing is, we play with our backs against the wall a lot more when he is on. I don't for a second think that ETH decided to take the foot of the gas today and try to protect the lead. That isn't in his DNA. He was forced to do that because with Maguire on the field we couldn't hold up the play like we for example did against Tottenham.

I think he was pretty poor on the ball, but he also had very poor passing options all game. Elanga may as well have not been on the pitch he was so invisible on the right wing. Maguire pretty much had either a square ball to Dalot/Martinez or a risky pass through the lines/long diagonal ball. There was almost no inbetween option with Elanga or when Fernandes went out right.

This "excuse" is valid when we are coached by like Ole.

The thing is -- ETH requires his CBs to be able to break the lines and create openings. When Martinez and Maguire pass the ball between them -- Maguire is so immobile and takes such a long time with the ball that they never will be able to find Casemiro with a pass. Its so easy for West Ham's high press to put Casemiro in a passing shadow.

We can blame Maguire's passing game on Elanga, but facts remain, he fits the description of what ETH wants from a CB terribly bad.

We should put him on those shows where he has to read bad tweets about him, he would retire from football if he knows how many Man Utd fans hate him.

I keep saying this, but its really not Maguires fault. If Sean Dyche is forced to play with Dybala as his target man -- is it Dybala's fault if Dyche's team sends long balls to him for 90 minutes and he loses every single duel in the air? Of course not.

Its very obvious that Maguire is not a match for what ETH wants from a CB. This is not rocket science. We shouldn't hate Maguire, the legit question is -- why the heck is he still here? Like I think that VNL is a pretty overrated CB (but sure, OK as a bench option). But if he plays instead of Maguire today we owns the ball like 20% more.

 

[captaincantona]

Yeah today was an example of why Maguire is just not the right fit.

He was awful on the ball, and played like a Hull centre half off it. Great when there isn’t much thought needed. Just old fashioned getting in the way.

Most of all, he doesn’t inspire confidence in his team mates and that is abundantly clear. We look vulnerable playing a high line with him. He is not captain material and Martinez,Dalot, Casemiro, Eriksen, De Gea all showed character and took responsibility.

Maguire did the basic defending well. that’s it. I’m genuinely shocked to see so many happy with his performance.

 

[eire-red]

Yeah today was an example of why Maguire is just not the right fit.

He was awful on the ball, and played like a Hull centre half off it. Great when there isn’t much thought needed. Just old fashioned getting in the way.

Most of all, he doesn’t inspire confidence in his team mates and that is abundantly clear. We look vulnerable playing a high line with him. He is not captain material and Martinez,Dalot, Casemiro, Eriksen, De Gea all showed character and took responsibility.

Maguire did the basic defending well. that’s it. I’m genuinely shocked to see so many happy with his performance.

While I agree with you that he doesn't fit the style anymore and our overall performance suffers with him in the team, he won some massive headers for us and the block on Bowen saved a definite goal. Credit where credit is due I think is only fair, considering where he's come from.

But, if Maguire is going to play while Varane is not fit, the responsibility now falls on ETH and the team as a whole to ensure that Maguire doesn't do his pondering party trick on the ball and either moves the ball quickly into midfield or on to Martinez. We have the midfielders and the full-backs now that like to receive the ball to feet, there's no reason Maguire should be ever needing 4/5 touches before picking a pass.

A confident Maguire playing well only benefits United at the end of the day. Let's not bash him when he finally put in a decent showing.

 

[Bastian]

While I agree with you that he doesn't fit the style anymore and our overall performance suffers with him in the team, he won some massive headers for us and the block on Bowen saved a definite goal. Credit where credit is due I think is only fair, considering where he's come from.

But, if Maguire is going to play while Varane is not fit, the responsibility now falls on ETH and the team as a whole to ensure that Maguire doesn't do his pondering party trick on the ball and either moves the ball quickly into midfield or on to Martinez. We have the midfielders and the full-backs now that like to receive the ball to feet, there's no reason Maguire should be ever needing 4/5 touches before picking a pass.

A confident Maguire playing well only benefits United at the end of the day. Let's not bash him when he finally put in a decent showing.

Decent showing? I'm not going to go overboard with criticism here, but it was painfully obvious that he limits us tactically in such a significant way. I'd expect that at the very least he'll get his head on the ball a few times to clear our box. Twice he left his position to win the ball and failing leaving Martinez to deal with it. His passing was wayward as well. He's just so far from being suitable to this style of play that I prefer Lindelof, whom I do not rate in the slightest.

There is no credit due here. Hopefully he'll prefer moving to get first team football. We need to buy a centre back so the drop-off in quality isn't so enormous, tactically.

 

[2 man midfield]

He’s fine if you don’t ask him to be what he isn’t. Playing on the half way line, taking the ball under pressure, building attacks - he made me and everyone else in the ground pucker their arse. But that last 10 minutes when West Ham were peppering our box because our midfield were nervous and couldn’t keep the ball, he was the most composed man in the stadium. He’ll deal with that all day long because that’s what he’s good at.

 

[norm87cro]

Still not worse than Lindelof. Not saying he is the answer but we do need a CB this winter or summer

 

[Rightnr]

Still not worse than Lindelof. Not saying he is the answer but we do need a CB this winter or summer

Ridiculous. How many times has Maguire set up a goal for us with a long ball? Just on that, he's above Maguire.

Maguire is clearly 4th choice and he's playing because he's fit. That's where he should be and we should look to move him on for someone like a Timber ASAP.

 

[Messier1994]

Decent showing? I'm not going to go overboard with criticism here, but it was painfully obvious that he limits us tactically in such a significant way. I'd expect that at the very least he'll get his head on the ball a few times to clear our box. Twice he left his position to win the ball and failing leaving Martinez to deal with it. His passing was wayward as well. He's just so far from being suitable to this style of play that I prefer Lindelof, whom I do not rate in the slightest.

There is no credit due here. Hopefully he'll prefer moving to get first team football. We need to buy a centre back so the drop-off in quality isn't so enormous, tactically.

I have to agree 100%.

Maguire made good defensive plays, but he put us in a position where those plays had to be made.

I am also a bit surprised how little understanding there is for ETHs game plan. He didn’t decide to not try to dictate play and defend the lead, we totally failed to execute the game plan and he was left with no other option than to hang on for dear life against a very mediocre team. What we failed to do what move the ball up the pitch and keeping possession of it. We will never challenge for top 4 if we can’t execute in those parts of our game plan.

This is also what many are saying in relation to our transfer strategy. We must got another CB who can move the ball and we must get an alternative to Eriksen who can’t be expected to play every minute for us and Denmark this season. If our CBs doesn’t do a really good job moving the ball and if we don’t have someone with the passing skills of Eriksen — we become a team who can be dominated at home by many bottom half teams of the PL. Like West Ham. This is what we saw under Ole.

In addition, someone like Bruno must stop gambling on the killer ball as much as he does when we are fighting so hard to gain momentum through possession.

Ultimately it’s tremendously hard to gain a hold of opponents and push them down in the Premier League. ETH has ideas to make that happen — and he has delivered on them. But I am a bit scared that at every step of the way — many are expecting that we can cut corners and cheat on ETHs requirements. ‘We don’t need CBs that can move the ball, as long as they have strengths in other areas.’ ‘We don’t need forwards who will press hard.’ ‘We don’t need a keeper who can pass the ball.’ ‘Our top guys can risk possession endlessly like Bruno does too much from my POV.’ And so forth.

ETH has a game plan, he sets it out, he knows which part of it is totally essential. So should the people following this team do. But what is he asked about at the presser before a game like this? Will Maguire be back? When will Maguire be back? Can you describe how essential Maguire’s leadership abilities are to this team? Isn’t it obvious that Maguire would be a star if he got to play for City?

I love the fact that we got 3 pts tonight. But we are not supporting ETH by praising the players performance like there is no tomorrow. This was a huuuuuuge step back vs what we saw against Tottenham for example. Line up more games like this and things could go south in a hurry. The conclusion after a game like this should be — ETH really is serious when setting out the requirements needed of his players. If he says that he must get CBs who can move the ball, we have to give it to him. Otherwise we are back being a team who have to fight for its life to get to borrow the ball the

 

[baskinginthesun]

While I agree with you that he doesn't fit the style anymore and our overall performance suffers with him in the team, he won some massive headers for us and the block on Bowen saved a definite goal. Credit where credit is due I think is only fair, considering where he's come from.

But, if Maguire is going to play while Varane is not fit, the responsibility now falls on ETH and the team as a whole to ensure that Maguire doesn't do his pondering party trick on the ball and either moves the ball quickly into midfield or on to Martinez. We have the midfielders and the full-backs now that like to receive the ball to feet, there's no reason Maguire should be ever needing 4/5 touches before picking a pass.

A confident Maguire playing well only benefits United at the end of the day. Let's not bash him when he finally put in a decent showing.

I think this is the most important part of all this. Every player had a limit or limitations. But, if they're feeling confident and excited they're more than likely to make contributions or make changes to their game that will only benefit the team.

He hasn't played in a couple of months so I'm assuming a little bit of match sharpness or fitness was a little of why he wasn't fully up to speed yet. Overall, I thought he did quite well considering the opponent and he definitely did his part in seeing out the last 15 minutes.

 

[Bastian]

I have to agree 100%.

Maguire made good defensive plays, but he put us in a position where those plays had to be made.

I am also a bit surprised how little understanding there is for ETHs game plan. He didn’t decide to not try to dictate play and defend the lead, we totally failed to execute the game plan and he was left with no other option than to hang on for dear life against a very mediocre team. What we failed to do what move the ball up the pitch and keeping possession of it. We will never challenge for top 4 if we can’t execute in those parts of our game plan.

This is also what many are saying in relation to our transfer strategy. We must got another CB who can move the ball and we must get an alternative to Eriksen who can’t be expected to play every minute for us and Denmark this season. If our CBs doesn’t do a really good job moving the ball and if we don’t have someone with the passing skills of Eriksen — we become a team who can be dominated at home by many bottom half teams of the PL. Like West Ham. This is what we saw under Ole.

In addition, someone like Bruno must stop gambling on the killer ball as much as he does when we are fighting so hard to gain momentum through possession.

Ultimately it’s tremendously hard to gain a hold of opponents and push them down in the Premier League. ETH has ideas to make that happen — and he has delivered on them. But I am a bit scared that at every step of the way — many are expecting that we can cut corners and cheat on ETHs requirements. ‘We don’t need CBs that can move the ball, as long as they have strengths in other areas.’ ‘We don’t need forwards who will press hard.’ ‘We don’t need a keeper who can pass the ball.’ ‘Our top guys can risk possession endlessly like Bruno does too much from my POV.’ And so forth.

ETH has a game plan, he sets it out, he knows which part of it is totally essential. So should the people following this team do. But what is he asked about at the presser before a game like this? Will Maguire be back? When will Maguire be back? Can you describe how essential Maguire’s leadership abilities are to this team? Isn’t it obvious that Maguire would be a star if he got to play for City?

I love the fact that we got 3 pts tonight. But we are not supporting ETH by praising the players performance like there is no tomorrow. This was a huuuuuuge step back vs what we saw against Tottenham for example. Line up more games like this and things could go south in a hurry. The conclusion after a game like this should be — ETH really is serious when setting out the requirements needed of his players. If he says that he must get CBs who can move the ball, we have to give it to him. Otherwise we are back being a team who have to fight for its life to get to borrow the ball the

Yeah, that's it completely. In fairness, the press are just after a headline and the English players generate more traffic in heavily trodden narratives. And for ETH he still has to shield the players because he will need them whilst the squad - in terms of tactical suitability - is very thin.

 

[MrBest]

Yeah today was an example of why Maguire is just not the right fit.

He was awful on the ball, and played like a Hull centre half off it. Great when there isn’t much thought needed. Just old fashioned getting in the way.

Most of all, he doesn’t inspire confidence in his team mates and that is abundantly clear. We look vulnerable playing a high line with him. He is not captain material and Martinez,Dalot, Casemiro, Eriksen, De Gea all showed character and took responsibility.

Maguire did the basic defending well. that’s it. I’m genuinely shocked to see so many happy with his performance.

Given how bad he has been for a long while, you have to give credit for a step up in performance. The basics he appeared to do right, showed some fight and out his body out there. Do I think he is in our top 2 CB, no because he slows the game down but all in all, he did his job today and you have to recognise that, even if you don't like him.

 

[SinNombre]

This is how we sell Maguire - he gets a few games when others are unavailable and we keep a few clean sheets barely.

Some back of the wall defending for England at the WC and hopefully we will get 40m for him.

 

[Tap]

Did well when our backs were against the wall.

Probably the best scenario to play Maguire. He does well in these backs to the wall, low block defending situations.

 

[mav_9me]

Still not worse than Lindelof. Not saying he is the answer but we do need a CB this winter or summer

Quite clearly our 4th choice. Lindelof has clearly shown to be capable of playing in ETH system. But Maguire today showed he wasn't good enough. Now it could be cuz he was playing after a long time and he might get better but I think he is too slow and ponderous on the ball for ETH.

 

[mav_9me]

This is how we sell Maguire - he gets a few games when others are unavailable and we keep a few clean sheets barely.

Some back of the wall defending for England at the WC and hopefully we will get 40m for him.

I'll honestly take 20M

 

[jeff gurr]

A good World Cup should stir up a bit of interest in him. The problem will be his wages !

 

[JeffFromHK]

Ridiculous. How many times has Maguire set up a goal for us with a long ball? Just on that, he's above Maguire.

Maguire is clearly 4th choice and he's playing because he's fit. That's where he should be and we should look to move him on for someone like a Timber ASAP.

Yes, Maguire's ball playing ability is so overrated. all Maguire can do is making those slow, floaty cross field long passes to the LW's feet (which the opponents always manage to reorganize when the slow long ball arrives at Rashford/Sancho's feet), that's it. no chance creating passes (like lindelof), no 50-yard forward passes on the ground (like martinez).

 

[Vapor trail]

Yes, Maguire's ball playing ability is so overrated. all Maguire can do is making those slow, floaty cross field long passes to the LW's feet (which the opponents always manage to reorganize when the slow long ball arrives at Rashford/Sancho's feet), that's it. no chance creating passes (like lindelof), no 50-yard forward passes on the ground (like martinez).

Maguire is half average on the ball and terrible releasing it. These comments of praise are baffling he had a awful performance. If that type of performance is the standard for good then Martinez should win the Ballon Dor by default.

 

[dal]

Hes so slow at everything.

 

[AndySmith1990]

Sell to the highest bidder and bring in a cheap young replacement who fits the team better is what I'd do. He's not a terrible defender perse, but he's not the type of player we need

 

[Abraxas]

I have to agree 100%.

Maguire made good defensive plays, but he put us in a position where those plays had to be made.

I am also a bit surprised how little understanding there is for ETHs game plan. He didn’t decide to not try to dictate play and defend the lead, we totally failed to execute the game plan and he was left with no other option than to hang on for dear life against a very mediocre team. What we failed to do what move the ball up the pitch and keeping possession of it. We will never challenge for top 4 if we can’t execute in those parts of our game plan.

This is also what many are saying in relation to our transfer strategy. We must got another CB who can move the ball and we must get an alternative to Eriksen who can’t be expected to play every minute for us and Denmark this season. If our CBs doesn’t do a really good job moving the ball and if we don’t have someone with the passing skills of Eriksen — we become a team who can be dominated at home by many bottom half teams of the PL. Like West Ham. This is what we saw under Ole.

In addition, someone like Bruno must stop gambling on the killer ball as much as he does when we are fighting so hard to gain momentum through possession.

Ultimately it’s tremendously hard to gain a hold of opponents and push them down in the Premier League. ETH has ideas to make that happen — and he has delivered on them. But I am a bit scared that at every step of the way — many are expecting that we can cut corners and cheat on ETHs requirements. ‘We don’t need CBs that can move the ball, as long as they have strengths in other areas.’ ‘We don’t need forwards who will press hard.’ ‘We don’t need a keeper who can pass the ball.’ ‘Our top guys can risk possession endlessly like Bruno does too much from my POV.’ And so forth.

ETH has a game plan, he sets it out, he knows which part of it is totally essential. So should the people following this team do. But what is he asked about at the presser before a game like this? Will Maguire be back? When will Maguire be back? Can you describe how essential Maguire’s leadership abilities are to this team? Isn’t it obvious that Maguire would be a star if he got to play for City?

I love the fact that we got 3 pts tonight. But we are not supporting ETH by praising the players performance like there is no tomorrow. This was a huuuuuuge step back vs what we saw against Tottenham for example. Line up more games like this and things could go south in a hurry. The conclusion after a game like this should be — ETH really is serious when setting out the requirements needed of his players. If he says that he must get CBs who can move the ball, we have to give it to him. Otherwise we are back being a team who have to fight for its life to get to borrow the ball the

I'm slightly baffled by the assertion that Maguire "put us in a position where defensive plays had to be made" with no specific reference to any individual incidents or at least a context for that statement that wouldn't put Maguire front and centre of everything that went wrong defensively. As a general statement I don't think that is remotely accurate as a reading of the game. It seems like a misrepresentation, perhaps designed for dramatic effect given Maguire is at a low ebb.

Yes, he made some mistakes, especially in the first half that put us in a position where we had to react. So it's true he made errors. But he also made key contributions to defend our lead towards the end of the match. I also don't think it is fair to pin the momentum in the game changing to the extent we started conceding territory and chances on Maguire when the whole side started giving the ball away for fun and not exploiting counters. West Ham didn't have a lot in the game until our midfield and forwards began to malfunction.

 

[Messier1994]

I'm slightly baffled by the assertion that Maguire "put us in a position where defensive plays had to be made" with no specific reference to any individual incidents or at least a context for that statement that wouldn't put Maguire front and centre of everything that went wrong defensively. As a general statement I don't think that is remotely accurate as a reading of the game. It seems like a misrepresentation, perhaps designed for dramatic effect given Maguire is at a low ebb.

Yes, he made some mistakes, especially in the first half that put us in a position where we had to react. So it's true he made errors. But he also made key contributions to defend our lead towards the end of the match. I also don't think it is fair to pin the momentum in the game changing to the extent we started conceding territory and chances on Maguire when the whole side started giving the ball away for fun and not exploiting counters. West Ham didn't have a lot in the game until our midfield and forwards began to malfunction.

Definitely a fair question and I understand how the statement I made could be seen as a dramatic statement -- but it really is not.

The goal of ETH ball is to play like this in the last 1/3 of the field if say the ball is on the right side (with the wingbacks/wingers shifting between inverting):
--------------------------------------------------I--------Net--------I---------------------------------------ball->--------------------
--------------------------------------------------I_____________I---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shaw-----------Rashford---------------------Ronaldo------------------------------Darlot-----------------------Antony
--------------------------------------Eriksen------------------------------Casemiro-----------------Fernandes-------------
------------------------------------------------------------Martinez-------------------------RCB------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------(*)------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To defend against this, you often end up with a 6-7 man line, 2-3 players in the lap of that line, and a striker a bit up field. Right? To get up field from that position, it basically requires two steps. You must (1) gain some ground, win a set piece or whatever, (2) move the team up and go from there. Or (1) pass the ball up field, hold it there, pass back to gain time, (2) move up the team, and then pass the ball up field again. Roughly.

Result of game-plan: When we get into this situation, we can create offense -- perhaps not be super dangerous all the time because we will face a collected defense -- but you have opportunities to create offense. And we are "safe" defensively. We have every opportunity to shut down a counter attack by 1-2 players starting fairly deep in their own end.

So how do we get up into that position if say DDG has the ball? There are of course different ways depending on what the opponent does. But the by far most common way is the play described below or some versions of it:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----^run^---------------------------------------------------^run^------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7) Rashford-----------------------------------------------Ronaldo----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------(*)----------------^run^---------------------------------(6) Antony-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bruno------------------------------------->holds<
----------------------^run^------------------------------------------------------------------^run^----------------------------------------
---------------------Shaw-----------------------------------------------------------------Darlot----------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------*ball*-----------------------------^run^--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------(5) Eriksen------------------------(4) Casemiro----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------(2) Martinez----------------------(3) Maguire-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------___________------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------I--(1)DDG----I-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------I------net-------I-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. When DDG, Martinez and Maguire has the ball, West Ham will not let us pass the ball up to Rashford, Ronaldo or Antony without putting serious pressure on them instantly. Simply, to get the ball under control up field, we must stir the pot pretty good.
2. The most common way to do that is to:
(a) break the first line of pressure and get the ball up to a Eriksen or Casemiro with time,
(b) pressure the center of the field very hard with a ton of runs forcing West Ham to fall deep with several players to control everyone.
(c) have a winger who is licking the line get open by not taking that run everyone else is doing, and hold his position or even drop down a bit.
(d) have Eriksen/Casemiro cross the ball out to one of the wingers.
3. Once we have been able to achieve the above, or some version of it -- West Ham won't have many means to prevent us from pushing them down very deep into the lap of their GK.
4. So how do we achieve (a) above? This is what West Ham is focusing on to shut down. Once Eriksen or Casemiro get the ball facing up field with some time, its more or less in our own hands. So when you like play City, this is what you train endlessly on. And remember, the upside is huuge for West Ham, because if they win the ball when we try to beat the first line of pressure -- you don't get much better scoring chances than from those situations.

Above I set out a simplistic version of it with Martinez - Casemiro - Maguire setting up a triangle with DDG passing to Martinez who pass to Maguire who pass to Casemiro who finds Eriksen who cross the ball to Antony who cross the ball to Rashford on the other side, while everyone else taking centralized runs. We are taking 5-6 centralized runs, and passing the ball at the perimeter of the field when we have gained parts of the field. This is on page 1 of like Pep's school book and exactly what ETH wants to do too. I label it as a simplistic version of it, because most of the time you have to involve one of the wing backs to create more triangles, have one of the CBs or wing backs dribble their guy to get out from the pressure, or something like that.

But this is also the hardest part of the whole equation. Why do people think Pep plays with a crazy goal keeper who takes a ton of risks with the ball? Why do people think teams try kamikaze passes out from their keeper? Why do people think ETH played with two 5'10 CBs in Ajax? I mean these are very risky measures with very obvious downsides that always gives you disadvantages in other common areas of the game (like set pieces) .

They do not do it for fun. They do it because if you cannot achieve the above -- which is the hardest part of their game plan to achieve, and which only involves their GK, CBs, full-backs and CDM basically -- their entire game plan is scrapped. If a mistake is made, we have for years heard the "experts" go 'I played the game, I know what I am talking about, when the keeper or center back get the ball, they should not take any risks, just clear it away. What are they thinking? I don't understand what is going on in their head when they are taking a risk like that'. But its 2022, we have seen Pep own the PL completely for like almost a decade now. I am not saying that you never should clear a ball away, but we should know better than asking why they are trying to pass or dribble their way through the first line of pressure.

So with the above game-plan, who are we asking the most of in terms of`:
(a) passing the ball,
(b) handling it,
(c) dribbling past their man,
(d) being able to pass the ball and move fast to get open,
(e) being poised with the ball despite being pressured? Etc etc etc.

It is obviously (in no internal order):
(1) DDG
(2) Martinez
(3) Maguire
(4) Casemiro
(5) Shaw
(6) Darlot

It is these guys who make or break our game plan. Like I like Elanga and his potential, but lets be honest, right now he is a so-so Championship player. But his role in terms of enabling ETHs game plan is marginal. If we fail to execute our game plan, it will rarely be Elanga's fault. But the GK and the CBs? Why did ETH play with two 5'10 CB in Ajax? It is simple, because it is the ball skills of those two players along with the CDM that matters the most for his game plan.

Honestly, I have never been among those who have had big problems with Maguire under other managers. But under ETH, he is just a very very poor fit. Last night -- we could not even remotely break West Ham's first line of pressure. Casemiro had to drop down between Martinez and Maguire just to get open and pass long from that area. Against Tottenham, Chelsea and even Everton, in all those games we owned the play in, we managed to beat that first line of pressure. Get Casemiro the ball with time and space. Get Eriksen the ball with time and space. Have them make those long crosses to one of our wingers. Push the opponents into the lap of their GK. And from there, we can play a really high pressure aggressive defense. With Maguire, we could not get past that first line of pressure at all.

So of course its a bit of a generalization to say that while Maguire made good defensive plays, "he was the one who put us in a position where defensive plays had to be made". But as a generalization, I think its 100% true. It is not a knock at all on Maguire. But regarding the most important aspect of ETH's game-plan that requires ball skills and mobility, does Maguire fit the bill? No, he does not.

 

[Messier1994]

Maguire is half average on the ball and terrible releasing it. These comments of praise are baffling he had a awful performance. If that type of performance is the standard for good then Martinez should win the Ballon Dor by default.

I just think the wide variety of opinions we see on Maguire is a result of people judging his play from completely different view points. If the game plan is to take the lead, of course try to get 2-0, but then back down and park the buss with 30 min left, than Maguire's game was great. I saw that someone like Graeme Souness only had praise for Maguire but had big issues with Martinez and even doubted that Martinez was a player for the Premier League after the game last night. I am sure ETH does not question that, both of course "knows football", but the reason they disagree so much on Martinez is because ETH has a completely different philosophy for how football should be played than Souness. Right? Souness wants what Maguire brings from his CB, ETH wants what Martinez brings.

The below is what ETH had to say about our play last night. He was not at all happy with how we executed the game plan:
"I also see still a lot of room for improvement. We have to, if we want to compete for the top 4 positions, improve. For instance, eh, first half, I think we have to dominate more on the ball, to bring ourselves into better positions between the lines. When you see second half, definitely, eh, we were I think quite poor in possession. There was a lot of space on the pitch. We give the ball too easy away. Many wrong decisions. You have to outplay them, when we get so much space."

I also think that this is a quite important topic were ETH must get some support. This is how he wants to play. Players who can't deliver what he wants should not read that they played a tremendous game the day after in the papers. ETH also mentioned that he was disappointed in how "We go direct for goal instead of keeping the ball" way to much, which especially applies for Bruno for example. It is just really important that he gets the player that fits his philosophy and that the players we have really applies themselves to execute that on the field. Like why is ETH's pressers only about when Maguire will be back, when Maguire obviously doesn't fit his style of play. If we did not have Maguire, we would never ever try to sign him now. Why is it never questioned how much someone like Bruno looks for the killer ball? And that other attacking players does not try to keep possession of it.

The understanding of ETH's philosophy and what it transforms into on the pitch is just lacking. If we had a coach who wanted to press and had players who did not press -- the media would recognize it and make a big deal about it. To some extent, that helps the coach to enforce and implement his game plan. In this area, its the opposite. What ETH wants is not recognized, and there is a ton of praise of play that goes totally against it. Perhaps not the biggest deal, but I do get a bit worried about it and the ramifications it could have.

 

[justsomebloke]

How many percent of our possession in a game does Maguire shave off? 10%? 20% What are our possession numbers with and without Maguire?

Maguire is definitely good when we have the backs against the wall. Thing is, we play with our backs against the wall a lot more when he is on. I don't for a second think that ETH decided to take the foot of the gas today and try to protect the lead. That isn't in his DNA. He was forced to do that because with Maguire on the field we couldn't hold up the play like we for example did against Tottenham.



This "excuse" is valid when we are coached by like Ole.

The thing is -- ETH requires his CBs to be able to break the lines and create openings. When Martinez and Maguire pass the ball between them -- Maguire is so immobile and takes such a long time with the ball that they never will be able to find Casemiro with a pass. Its so easy for West Ham's high press to put Casemiro in a passing shadow.

We can blame Maguire's passing game on Elanga, but facts remain, he fits the description of what ETH wants from a CB terribly bad.



I keep saying this, but its really not Maguires fault. If Sean Dyche is forced to play with Dybala as his target man -- is it Dybala's fault if Dyche's team sends long balls to him for 90 minutes and he loses every single duel in the air? Of course not.

Its very obvious that Maguire is not a match for what ETH wants from a CB. This is not rocket science. We shouldn't hate Maguire, the legit question is -- why the heck is he still here? Like I think that VNL is a pretty overrated CB (but sure, OK as a bench option). But if he plays instead of Maguire today we owns the ball like 20% more.

I spent 20 seconds trying to figure out who "VNL" is supposed to be, but have now given up. Help, please?

 

[justsomebloke]

Definitely a fair question and I understand how the statement I made could be seen as a dramatic statement -- but it really is not.

The goal of ETH ball is to play like this in the last 1/3 of the field if say the ball is on the right side (with the wingbacks/wingers shifting between inverting):
--------------------------------------------------I--------Net--------I---------------------------------------ball->--------------------
--------------------------------------------------I_____________I---------------------------------------------------------------------
Shaw-----------Rashford---------------------Ronaldo------------------------------Darlot-----------------------Antony
--------------------------------------Eriksen------------------------------Casemiro-----------------Fernandes-------------
------------------------------------------------------------Martinez-------------------------RCB------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------(*)------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To defend against this, you often end up with a 6-7 man line, 2-3 players in the lap of that line, and a striker a bit up field. Right? To get up field from that position, it basically requires two steps. You must (1) gain some ground, win a set piece or whatever, (2) move the team up and go from there. Or (1) pass the ball up field, hold it there, pass back to gain time, (2) move up the team, and then pass the ball up field again. Roughly.

Result of game-plan: When we get into this situation, we can create offense -- perhaps not be super dangerous all the time because we will face a collected defense -- but you have opportunities to create offense. And we are "safe" defensively. We have every opportunity to shut down a counter attack by 1-2 players starting fairly deep in their own end.

So how do we get up into that position if say DDG has the ball? There are of course different ways depending on what the opponent does. But the by far most common way is the play described below or some versions of it:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----^run^---------------------------------------------------^run^------------------------------------------------------------------------
(7) Rashford-----------------------------------------------Ronaldo----------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------------------(*)----------------^run^---------------------------------(6) Antony-
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Bruno------------------------------------->holds<
----------------------^run^------------------------------------------------------------------^run^----------------------------------------
---------------------Shaw-----------------------------------------------------------------Darlot----------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------*ball*-----------------------------^run^--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------(5) Eriksen------------------------(4) Casemiro----------------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------------------------------(2) Martinez----------------------(3) Maguire-------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------------___________------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------I--(1)DDG----I-----------------------------------------------------------------------
------------------------------------------------------I------net-------I-----------------------------------------------------------------------
1. When DDG, Martinez and Maguire has the ball, West Ham will not let us pass the ball up to Rashford, Ronaldo or Antony without putting serious pressure on them instantly. Simply, to get the ball under control up field, we must stir the pot pretty good.
2. The most common way to do that is to:
(a) break the first line of pressure and get the ball up to a Eriksen or Casemiro with time,
(b) pressure the center of the field very hard with a ton of runs forcing West Ham to fall deep with several players to control everyone.
(c) have a winger who is licking the line get open by not taking that run everyone else is doing, and hold his position or even drop down a bit.
(d) have Eriksen/Casemiro cross the ball out to one of the wingers.
3. Once we have been able to achieve the above, or some version of it -- West Ham won't have many means to prevent us from pushing them down very deep into the lap of their GK.
4. So how do we achieve (a) above? This is what West Ham is focusing on to shut down. Once Eriksen or Casemiro get the ball facing up field with some time, its more or less in our own hands. So when you like play City, this is what you train endlessly on. And remember, the upside is huuge for West Ham, because if they win the ball when we try to beat the first line of pressure -- you don't get much better scoring chances than from those situations.

Above I set out a simplistic version of it with Martinez - Casemiro - Maguire setting up a triangle with DDG passing to Martinez who pass to Maguire who pass to Casemiro who finds Eriksen who cross the ball to Antony who cross the ball to Rashford on the other side, while everyone else taking centralized runs. We are taking 5-6 centralized runs, and passing the ball at the perimeter of the field when we have gained parts of the field. This is on page 1 of like Pep's school book and exactly what ETH wants to do too. I label it as a simplistic version of it, because most of the time you have to involve one of the wing backs to create more triangles, have one of the CBs or wing backs dribble their guy to get out from the pressure, or something like that.

But this is also the hardest part of the whole equation. Why do people think Pep plays with a crazy goal keeper who takes a ton of risks with the ball? Why do people think teams try kamikaze passes out from their keeper? Why do people think ETH played with two 5'10 CBs in Ajax? I mean these are very risky measures with very obvious downsides that always gives you disadvantages in other common areas of the game (like set pieces) .

They do not do it for fun. They do it because if you cannot achieve the above -- which is the hardest part of their game plan to achieve, and which only involves their GK, CBs, full-backs and CDM basically -- their entire game plan is scrapped. If a mistake is made, we have for years heard the "experts" go 'I played the game, I know what I am talking about, when the keeper or center back get the ball, they should not take any risks, just clear it away. What are they thinking? I don't understand what is going on in their head when they are taking a risk like that'. But its 2022, we have seen Pep own the PL completely for like almost a decade now. I am not saying that you never should clear a ball away, but we should know better than asking why they are trying to pass or dribble their way through the first line of pressure.

So with the above game-plan, who are we asking the most of in terms of`:
(a) passing the ball,
(b) handling it,
(c) dribbling past their man,
(d) being able to pass the ball and move fast to get open,
(e) being poised with the ball despite being pressured? Etc etc etc.

It is obviously (in no internal order):
(1) DDG
(2) Martinez
(3) Maguire
(4) Casemiro
(5) Shaw
(6) Darlot

It is these guys who make or break our game plan. Like I like Elanga and his potential, but lets be honest, right now he is a so-so Championship player. But his role in terms of enabling ETHs game plan is marginal. If we fail to execute our game plan, it will rarely be Elanga's fault. But the GK and the CBs? Why did ETH play with two 5'10 CB in Ajax? It is simple, because it is the ball skills of those two players along with the CDM that matters the most for his game plan.

Honestly, I have never been among those who have had big problems with Maguire under other managers. But under ETH, he is just a very very poor fit. Last night -- we could not even remotely break West Ham's first line of pressure. Casemiro had to drop down between Martinez and Maguire just to get open and pass long from that area. Against Tottenham, Chelsea and even Everton, in all those games we owned the play in, we managed to beat that first line of pressure. Get Casemiro the ball with time and space. Get Eriksen the ball with time and space. Have them make those long crosses to one of our wingers. Push the opponents into the lap of their GK. And from there, we can play a really high pressure aggressive defense. With Maguire, we could not get past that first line of pressure at all.

So of course its a bit of a generalization to say that while Maguire made good defensive plays, "he was the one who put us in a position where defensive plays had to be made". But as a generalization, I think its 100% true. It is not a knock at all on Maguire. But regarding the most important aspect of ETH's game-plan that requires ball skills and mobility, does Maguire fit the bill? No, he does not.

Thank you, that is a very interesting post.

 

[Guapa]

Well played Harry Maguire.Help us secure the 3 points for sure.

 

[JeffFromHK]

He did well against West Ham, but still needs to be sold.
He never suits Ten Hag's highline system and thus he is not a worthy backup for Varane/Martinez. We can't change our style of play whenever we got 1 cb injured.
We need to find a reasonably priced ball playing highline cb.

 

[Messier1994]

I spent 20 seconds trying to figure out who "VNL" is supposed to be, but have now given up. Help, please?

Haha, sorry, I am not up to date with the lingo. I am a die hard united fan for like the last 30 years but who for like the last 10 years worked 70 hours a day and never had time to spend times in these circles. Now I am spending 50% of my time at the children's hospital with a very sick kid getting treatment (also a big United fan), and am back following the team 24/7. Its Victor Nilsson Lindelof, but I had not even realized Lindelof dropped "Nilsson" from his name. When we signed him he was referred to as Nilsson-Lindelof or VNL.

 

[justsomebloke]

Haha, sorry, I am not up to date with the lingo. I am a die hard united fan for like the last 30 years but who for like the last 10 years worked 70 hours a day and never had time to spend times in these circles. Now I am spending 50% of my time at the children's hospital with a very sick kid getting treatment (also a big United fan), and am back following the team 24/7. Its Victor Nilsson Lindelof, but I had not even realized Lindelof dropped "Nilsson" from his name. When we signed him he was referred to as Nilsson-Lindelof or VNL.

...aaah, thanks.

Sorry to hear about the hospital situation, hope all goes well!

 

[AbusementPark]

I cant even sell him for £10m on FM23, hes been banished to the reserves and still refuses to leave.

 

[bosskeano]

the only thing maguire is good at defensively is heading the ball....he's slow, he doesn't read the game that well, his distribution isn't great

he's a mid level premier league type CB much like he was at Leicester. He fits into teams like Burnley not Man Utd

 

[studs]

He'll be a hard to shine dull penny.

 

[Stadjer]

I cant even sell him for £10m on FM23, hes been banished to the reserves and still refuses to leave.

Hopefully FM lacks realism this year....

 

[eire-red]

Decent showing? I'm not going to go overboard with criticism here, but it was painfully obvious that he limits us tactically in such a significant way. I'd expect that at the very least he'll get his head on the ball a few times to clear our box. Twice he left his position to win the ball and failing leaving Martinez to deal with it. His passing was wayward as well. He's just so far from being suitable to this style of play that I prefer Lindelof, whom I do not rate in the slightest.

There is no credit due here. Hopefully he'll prefer moving to get first team football. We need to buy a centre back so the drop-off in quality isn't so enormous, tactically.

We both agree on the point tactically, I did say as much in my post also. But I think if you're CB makes a goal-saving block, you have to be pretty happy with that. Considering Maguire is probably the most ridiculed and abused player of the current age (plenty of it self inflicted granted), I was happy that he came back into the squad after an injury layoff off the back of a nightmare showing vs Germany for England too, and made a positive contribution for once to the team.

As a fan, that's all that matters to me really at the end of the day, and I don't think there's anything controversial about giving Maguire a little credit for his showing on Sunday, same as any other player that did OK in a pretty average performance.

As the game became more of an aerial siege from West Ham, Maguire was in his element. While we were bossing possession and playing a high line, he was exposed a couple times. Just goes to show Maguire's strengths and limitations and how he's not a long term solution.

I think we should definitely sell him, and he seems the kind of guy that would rather go for his career instead of sit on the bench at United. If he plays well while Varane is out and has a good tournament, it's more resale value for us to spend on a CB more suited to our style. A positive outcome for all.

 

[Sky1981]

While I agree with you that he doesn't fit the style anymore and our overall performance suffers with him in the team, he won some massive headers for us and the block on Bowen saved a definite goal. Credit where credit is due I think is only fair, considering where he's come from.

But, if Maguire is going to play while Varane is not fit, the responsibility now falls on ETH and the team as a whole to ensure that Maguire doesn't do his pondering party trick on the ball and either moves the ball quickly into midfield or on to Martinez. We have the midfielders and the full-backs now that like to receive the ball to feet, there's no reason Maguire should be ever needing 4/5 touches before picking a pass.

A confident Maguire playing well only benefits United at the end of the day. Let's not bash him when he finally put in a decent showing.

The last bit. For all its worth i think finally the kinda shrugged off and put to his place actually did him wonder.

Previous manager has been stroking his ego he believed his own hype and overdoes simple stuff to prove a point. Who'd have thought a slap back to reality is just the right medicine.

 

[Lentwood]

So of course its a bit of a generalization to say that while Maguire made good defensive plays, "he was the one who put us in a position where defensive plays had to be made". But as a generalization, I think its 100% true. It is not a knock at all on Maguire. But regarding the most important aspect of ETH's game-plan that requires ball skills and mobility, does Maguire fit the bill? No, he does not.

All of that is well and good and to be fair you've done a more thorough job than most of explaining how ETH wants to play BUT still to pin our 'defensive plays' on him ignores the fact that even if you're correct in your assertion that Maguire isn't suited to an ETH system, we have other players too who are far from ideal and/or still learning how ETH wants to play. We could highlight DDGs poor distribution, we could highlight Ronaldo's sluggishness, we could highlight how wasteful Bruno and Fred are in possession, we could highlight how Elanga is nowhere near as good at holding the ball/providing that release as Anthony clearly seems to be...so I'd say it's fairer to conclude we are what we are - a work in progress....and that's not because of one player

Plus, West Ham aren't just going to fold and let us have it all our own way. They're a good, physical team who play to their strengths. They have a powerful midfield, a tricky forward line and old-school 'target-men' style CFs. They had nothing to lose in the 2nd half so started committing bodies forward and looking to hit their forwards early. So when that happens and you keep gifting the ball back, you're going to end-up being forced to defend the box.

 

[Messier1994]

All of that is well and good and to be fair you've done a more thorough job than most of explaining how ETH wants to play BUT still to pin our 'defensive plays' on him ignores the fact that even if you're correct in your assertion that Maguire isn't suited to an ETH system, we have other players too who are far from ideal and/or still learning how ETH wants to play. We could highlight DDGs poor distribution, we could highlight Ronaldo's sluggishness, we could highlight how wasteful Bruno and Fred are in possession, we could highlight how Elanga is nowhere near as good at holding the ball/providing that release as Anthony clearly seems to be...so I'd say it's fairer to conclude we are what we are - a work in progress....and that's not because of one player

Plus, West Ham aren't just going to fold and let us have it all our own way. They're a good, physical team who play to their strengths. They have a powerful midfield, a tricky forward line and old-school 'target-men' style CFs. They had nothing to lose in the 2nd half so started committing bodies forward and looking to hit their forwards early. So when that happens and you keep gifting the ball back, you're going to end-up being forced to defend the box.

Good post and 100% fair points.

 

[Lux Thunder]

I still think he can have a solid career in mid and lower-table teams who set up with low defensive lines - not like ours as we tend to play high lines and control games through possession, which is the right thing to do. His defending of the box from crosses is actually good so teams like this could find his services helpful.

 

[ROFLUTION]

Loan him out to a place where he’ll get game time come winter. Relegation fodder preferably as he’s best suited to sit back and also that’s where his impact would heighten his price the most.

Come to think of it, Serie A would be a great fit for him

 

[Crashoutcassius]

played well, unpopular i know. clear that ETH shifted the style to suit the players he had on the pitch, the scoundrel.

need to get used to this as varane won't stay fit