How far off is this squad from a title challenge?

[GiddyUp]

Jesus christ this fecking argument again - after 1/4 of the season played. Where would you honestly put your money right now?

It's like the "Ole got us 3rd last season".

 

[sewey89]

I genuinely think if we brought a new manager in now, with the potential boom that could bring, we could win the league this year. It’s absolutely wide open thanks to covid and Liverpool’s injuries

 

[Stacks]

really like most clubs it will be down to luck. You have to luck out and get one of the best managers in the game, combine that with lots of money and you have a chance. Its not something you can just plan for unless you have an idea what coaches actually want to come. City tapped Pep up and Liverpool lucked out with Klopp. Before they were just hiring and firing like anyone else

 

[Ajr]

Literally nothing is needed other than confidence and some luck, don't need to beat pool/city

 

[RepardReece]

If we didnt have Ole then we might not even be in a position to challenge anyway. If we are going to use words such as 'incompetent' to describe him, then surely its important that we balance that out by also giving him the credit he deserves for building this squad, no? Go back and look at the money spent, and how it was spent, before him to help you realise how that is not automatically going to happen.

Did I say it would automatically happen? No. Ole isn't even the reason we were in the CL or a position to challenge, Bruno single-handedly carried us to 3rd last season, and also a huge thanks to Leicester dropping off a cliff. He's got lucky, he changes our starting XI every single game like he's guessing who will work with who. There's no rythym with the players because of this. I don't think he has a clue what our best XI is. He said yes to buying VDB and has barely utilised him. Cavani has shown he deserves the starting spot ahead of Martial, but he continued to bench him (I know he's injured now, talking about before). And his game management is the worst I've ever seen, seen numerous people on here calling for changes to be made miles before Ole can see it himself. Rashford was injured against PSG, only takes him off 10 minutes later. Slow reaction time, and it's a major factor as to why we're struggling.

I'm fairly sure any decent level manager would do all this more effectively.

 

[Buster15]

If we didnt have Ole then we might not even be in a position to challenge anyway. If we are going to use words such as 'incompetent' to describe him, then surely its important that we balance that out by also giving him the credit he deserves for building this squad, no? Go back and look at the money spent, and how it was spent, before him to help you realise how that is not automatically going to happen.

To be fair, that argument only holds water if Ole is in sole charge of recruitment and contract negotiation.

 

[UnofficialDevil]

With a manager worthily of this squad it could challenge for the title, specially this year.
Not with Ole though. He is not on the same level as this squad, he is on a much lower level than the players.

 

[HowYouDoin]

I do think we are a lot closer than most people realize. We just arent coached at all. With better coaching, at least adequate coaching at the PL level we would be much better. I think literally any other coach in the PL would make us a lot better, its just that we have one thats Molde level.
.
There are ways to instantly improve this team.
Make Maguire elite. Play to his strengths. Let him play with Tuanzebe who will cover for his lack of pace, not with Lindelof who exposes it even more.
Start VDB. Add real creativity to the midfield. It will help both Bruno and Rashford and Rashford is on cusp of being world class. This also ties into our centre back situation, if they were a bit faster you wouldnt need to play two DM's.
Also its time to really invest in Greenwood as a lone striker and start making him elite too.
And then you have a talented youngster in Diallo arriving soon.

All in all there are ways to get so much more out of our players, we just arent coached at all.
You see Klopp. All of his players get injured but they still dominate. Poçh with Tottenham got the best out of everyone. Ditto at Southampton. Also this new German guy at Southampton too.


But we just rely on individual brilliance without putting our brilliant individuals in best position to succeed.
We have a joke of a manager, a Molde level, PE teacher. Thats whats holding us back. But we've shown we can beat and dominate the likes of Paris. We arent too far from being a dominant team.

 

[HowYouDoin]

With a manager worthily of this squad it could challenge for the title, specially this year.
Not with Ole though. He is not on the same level as this squad, he is on a much lower level than the players.

So true.

 

[Varun1]

If we didnt have Ole then we might not even be in a position to challenge anyway. If we are going to use words such as 'incompetent' to describe him, then surely its important that we balance that out by also giving him the credit he deserves for building this squad, no? Go back and look at the money spent, and how it was spent, before him to help you realise how that is not automatically going to happen.

Except we're not challenging and he's built a squad that doesn't fit his outdated tactics. We have won some games under his management but am not sure why we need to use this as an assessment of his achievement - am struggling to explain this, but isn't he expected to win games? Isn't that a major part of his job?
Under normal circumstances, for a big team, a manager isn't sacked because his win % is 20%, 30% etc, he's sacked because he's expected to win many more games and deliver trophies.

I'd give the Brighton manager (and players) credit for saving their team from the drop last season or Wilder for placing Sheffield United in the top 10, on the other hand I wouldn't give the Villa manager credit last season for finishing just above the relegation zone after all the money spent. And the same applies to Ole, he's underperforming immensely.

I can't believe that he's given credit for building a squad which in fact doesn't suit his style. Good players granted, but not for Ole. AWB can't cross, Maguire is so damn slow, Lindelof can't completement him and can't pass, what was the point of Ighalo? - none of these guys fit the way Ole plays, and Matic was given a long term contract. How do any of these make sense? It remains to be seen about this summer's transfers and Bruno is doing well. So credit for getting Bruno right.

@Bilbo
I've got limited posts as a newbie so editing this one instead...

I respect your opinion so we'll just have to disagree on Ole.
Only other thing i'd like to add, I'd take a 1-0 win anytime if that wins us games and trophies, which is why I never got the hate that teams like Burnley would get for grinding out games and playing to their strengths.

 

[Bilbo]

Did I say it would automatically happen? No. Ole isn't even the reason we were in the CL or a position to challenge, Bruno single-handedly carried us to 3rd last season, and also a huge thanks to Leicester dropping off a cliff. He's got lucky, he changes our starting XI every single game like he's guessing who will work with who. There's no rythym with the players because of this. I don't think he has a clue what our best XI is. He said yes to buying VDB and has barely utilised him. Cavani has shown he deserves the starting spot ahead of Martial, but he continued to bench him (I know he's injured now, talking about before). And his game management is the worst I've ever seen, seen numerous people on here calling for changes to be made miles before Ole can see it himself. Rashford was injured against PSG, only takes him off 10 minutes later. Slow reaction time, and it's a major factor as to why we're struggling.

I'm fairly sure any decent level manager would do all this more effectively.

You being fairly sure of something doesn't necessarily make it right, with respect. Everybody thinks they can manage a football team.

Your point in bold is a good example. He kept a consistent starting XI at the end of last season. It contributed to us getting 3rd, but then it also probably cost us a trophy or maybe even two and over time it did not actually help with our rhythm. The opposite if anything. Managers have to rotate.

Unfair analysis just makes you come across as an agenda poster. We have enough of them already. I've seen Ole make mistakes during matches, and I've also seen him (quite recently in fact) make changes that have contributed to winning points from losing positions.

 

[elmo]

We won’t win anything while Woodward is the CEO

 

[elmo]

An injury to Bruno Fernandes.

We can win the championship

 

[DCP]

As someone else is put, we are so badly coached that we constantly rely on individual brilliance to win us matches - this is why things pick up when we forget about the tactics because we are losing and just go for it.

Get a decent manager/coach in to manage and coach this side and we will be contenders this year - especially if we were to play a second string side for the europa league.

 

[red_de_pologne]

You being fairly sure of something doesn't necessarily make it right, with respect. Everybody thinks they can manage a football team.

Your point in bold is a good example. He kept a consistent starting XI at the end of last season. It contributed to us getting 3rd, but then it also probably cost us a trophy or maybe even two and over time it did not actually help with our rhythm. The opposite if anything. Managers have to rotate.

Unfair analysis just makes you come across as an agenda poster. We have enough of them already. I've seen Ole make mistakes during matches, and I've also seen him (quite recently in fact) make changes that have contributed to winning points from losing positions.

He's changing the formation every game as well, plus his rotation choices are questionable.

Imagine beating PSG and Leipzig with a diamond midfield then abandon it in the return games..

 

[passing-wind]

Think this will be a realistic question with a manager who can realistically match the ambition.

 

[Bilbo]

Except we're not challenging and he's built a squad that doesn't fit his outdated tactics. We have won some games under his management but am not sure why we need to use this as an assessment of his achievement - am struggling to explain this, but isn't he expected to win games? Isn't that a major part of his job?
Under normal circumstances, for big teams, managers aren't sacked because their win % is 20%, 30% etc, they're sacked because they're expected to win many more games and deliver trophies.

I'd give the Brighton manager (and players) credit for saving his team from the drop last season or Wilder for placing Sheffield United in the top 10, on the other hand I wouldn't give the Villa manager credit last season for finishing just above the relegation zone after all the money spent. And the same applies to Ole, he's underperforming immensely.

I can't believe that he's given credit for building a squad which doesn't suit his style. Good players granted, but not for Ole. AWB can't cross, Maguire is so damn slow, Lindelof can't completement him and can't pass, what was the point of Ighalo, none of these guys fit the way Ole plays and Matic was given a long term contract. How do any of these make sense? It remains to be seen about this summer's transfers and Bruno is doing well.

We're not challenging yet. Its too early to be definitively challenging for a title, but we are also not out of the race as things stand. We are right in there.

Look at the statistics (that I stole from another poster)

Games scoring 3+ goals
OGS: 32.4%
OGS since Jan: 41.5%
This season: 50%
This shows: A. steady progression and B. willingness to attack

Win %:
OGS: 55.6%
OGS since Jan: 63.4%
OGS this season: 61.1%

You are right. He is expected to win games. The above shows that he is doing so, and he is doing it progressively well.

You have to be fair in your analysis. He could be doing better - of course. He has made mistakes - of course. There is no getting away from that. Are this team steadily improving under his management? Yes they are.

 

[Bilbo]

To be fair, that argument only holds water if Ole is in sole charge of recruitment and contract negotiation.

Why does it matter? Its simply anti-Ole agenda. This doesn't exist in any other conversation. Nobody questions Klopps or Lampards or Peps or any other managers signings because other people were involved in the process. I have never ever seen a set of supporters be so creative in finding ways to criticise (or praise to be fair) a manager in history than this forum does with Ole. Its really bizarre.

 

[Wilt]

The simple answer is ....if Utd can’t beat the main opposition there’s zero chance of challenging.

So far this season against ”top six”, 1 point from a possible 9

1 goal scored (penalty) 8 goals against.

Says it all.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Its really hard to tell, we look so disjointed on the pitch how much that is players how much is that is tactics I have no idea.

I think we need a few years of good attacking coaching to really even begin to answer this question, Mourinho famously doesn't coach attacking movements and our young players like Rashford and Martial really stagnated under him. Ole only seems to know how to set up and coach counter-attacking play and doesn't seem to know how to coach a team to break a team down when they sit deep. That's really hurting our attackers, Martial, for example, is now 25 and still has a long way to go if was going to become a top centre forward which is unlikely to happen now.

I think it's now not about signings yeah there are holes in the squad, but unless we get a coach who can actually improve players and train them tactically and give him a few years to work, no amount of money is going to help.

 

[Bilbo]

He's changing the formation every game as well, plus his rotation choices are questionable.

Imagine beating PSG and Leipzig with a diamond midfield then abandon it in the return games..

I dont have an issue with him changing formation as often as he does. Its clear that he favours a 4231 variation, and we use that most of the time, but that simply doesn't fit every opponent we are going to play. Its important to be able to adapt.

He played a diamond against Leipzig. It worked very well. Against Arsenal - awful.
He played a back 5 against PSG. We were super solid. Against Leipzig - all over the place.

Sometimes we are going to have to experiment. He is trying to build something here, whilst having the pressure of having to win every match we play.

 

[croadyman]

We won’t win anything while Woodward is the CEO

Spot on and that is the fact which definitely gets lost by many at times,will even admit by myself in the last couple of days.

There won't be a dramatic sea change with another manager if we still have the same jokers making poor decisions.

 

[Buster15]

Why does it matter? Its simply anti-Ole agenda. This doesn't exist in any other conversation. Nobody questions Klopps or Lampards or Peps or any other managers signings because other people were involved in the process. I have never ever seen a set of supporters be so creative in finding ways to criticise (or praise to be fair) a manager in history than this forum does with Ole. Its really bizarre.

It matters because I was responding to a post that was given Ole complete credit for the current squad.

 

[Bilbo]

It matters because I was responding to a post that was given Ole complete credit for the current squad.

Managers always get the credit for the signings that are made during their tenure. They get the criticism too. That's how it works.

 

[Superden]

its not about whether the squad is ready to challenge, its about the whole club. and unfortunately on that we are miles off, in the same boat as arsenal.

 

[Jibbs]

A world class manager away. Sir Alex would have won this squad a title. I sincerely hope we appoint Pochettino soon.

 

[Jibbs]

Additions

1 Competent Manager
1 RW
1 CB to partner Maguire
1 CDM
1 Paul Pogba replacement

Subtractions
Ole
Pogba

Agree.

 

[croadyman]

A world class manager away. Sir Alex would have won this squad a title. I sincerely hope we appoint Pochettino soon.

He still needs a better structure above him and there looks to be no plans to implement one at all

 

[Enigma_87]

He still needs a better structure above him and there looks to be no plans to implement one at all

So you think all clubs that win titles and cups form time to time have great structure above the manager?
This excuse has became so lame it’s untrue.

Chelsea have always been scattered in their approach, hiring, sacking managers, buying players, letting go others, yet lately they have had couple of managers being successful there on a short notice - within a year or two. There are million other examples too.

Take Klopp out of Pool and they will be more miserable than us, yet now they seem out of reach.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Squad wise we’re really close. Centre back & a DM. Fergie would win the league this season with this squad.

The biggest change we need is the coaching. The players are horribly coached right now.

I think a competent manager could challenge this season.

 

[Ronaldo's ego]

A top manager would have this squad challenging for the title.

 

[HowYouDoin]

Squad wise we’re really close. Centre back & a DM. Fergie would win the league this season with this squad.

The biggest change we need is the coaching. The players are horribly coached right now.

I think a competent manager could challenge this season.

Agreed though if we just played Tuanzebe and VDB we would also improve a lot on those two things you mentioned. At the very least would be a lot more balanced. But yeah need a competent manager first.

 

[croadyman]

So you think all clubs that win titles and cups form time to time have great structure above the manager?
This excuse has became so lame it’s untrue.

Chelsea have always been scattered in their approach, hiring, sacking managers, buying players, letting go others, yet lately they have had couple of managers being successful there on a short notice - within a year or two. There are million other examples too.

Take Klopp out of Pool and they will be more miserable than us, yet now they seem out of reach.

The biggest difference being that Roman's aim every season is success on the pitch whereas our owners are just focused on making money. So the reason he has hired and fired so many is because he wants the best for his team. If you don't hit the requirements then he will get rid of you in a flash.

You only have to refer that statement from Woody about success on the pitch being seperate to what happens off the pitch.

 

[HowYouDoin]

A top manager would have this squad challenging for the title.

I think so too. There is a looooot of talent in our team.

 

[croadyman]

Squad wise we’re really close. Centre back & a DM. Fergie would win the league this season with this squad.

The biggest change we need is the coaching. The players are horribly coached right now.

I think a competent manager could challenge this season.

Personally wish we should sell Pogba in January and sign both of those,howevet chances are that the right players aren't available until the summer.

We certainly saw on Tuesday night that Matic has to be replaced at the end of the season,unfortunately with Ole that probably means seeing McTominay.

 

[TheMagicFoolBus]

From my perspective at least what's holding United back from a genuine title challenge is the depth in the squad moreso than any glaring deficiencies in the starting XI. This must be especially galling given you have the highest wage bill in the league - your problem is that you keep giving ridiculous contracts to players who have no business making those wages. Juan Mata is a lovely bloke, but has he shown enough to merit a 3 year extension from last season? Did Phil Jones warrant a 4 year extension from last season? Who thought it was a good idea to sign Matic to an extension until he's 35 years old? Why do you have 4 senior first team goalkeepers?

Given you're the richest and biggest club in the country, it's frankly ridiculous that your resources have been allocated so poorly. For the wages you're paying, you should have world class players in every position, with the squad filled out by young prospects either from the academy or purchased cheaply from lower divisions.

 

[RashyForPM]

Most importantly, we need a new manager. Then, new RB, CB, DM, CM, RW and ST.

 

[Schmeichel's Cartwheel]

Personally wish we would sell Pogba in January and sign both of those,howevet chances are that the right players aren't available until the summer.

We certainly saw on Tuesday night that Matic has to be replaced at the end of the season,unfortunately with Ole that probably means seeing McTominay.

I wish his love affair of McTominay would end, he offers nothing. To be honest I think centre back is the only absolute priority right now. That’s the only must

I’d be ok with this til the end of the season.
Fred - Donny
Rashford - Bruno - Martial
Cavani

We need to replace those donkeys at centre back in Jan. ideally both but I know that’s not happening.

 

[Gabagoo]

Not mentioning the head or supporting coaches, I think we are this many players away from getting to within, say, single-digits away from the title:

• Fast CB
• Attacking RB
• Long-ball playing CM
• RW
• CF

So basically we're miles away.

 

[Enigma_87]

The biggest difference being that Roman's aim every season is success on the pitch whereas our owners are just focused on making money. So the reason he has hired and fired so many is because he wants the best for his team. If you don't hit the requirements then he will get rid of you in a flash.

You only have to refer that statement from Woody about success on the pitch being seperate to what happens off the pitch.

Why would the owners need to change their way considering half of the fan base is content with having a mediocre manager at helm?
We are in this position because many fans are just like the board - zero ambition, engulfed in romanticism and feeling special when it comes to firing managers.