How far off is this squad from a title challenge?

Bobcat

Full Member
Joined
Feb 2, 2014
Messages
6,388
Location
Behind the curtains, leering at the neighbors
So let's start from the beginning then. I don't think that bringing in Pochettino or anyone else really will sort all our woes. United's has a weak structure from up to bottom. We've got business men taking key football decisions (transfers negotiations, contract renewal, choosing managers etc), we've got an inexperienced manager and whose flanked by inexperienced coaches. A top manager flanked by decent coaches would probably drill the team better. Hopefully he might avoid blowing an 80m CB in a team were he would be surrounded by a GK who wouldn't leave his line even if his life depended on it and other players who are equally slow as he is (Lindelof and Matic). However that's not a guarantee either as managers lack experience in identifying top transfer targets these days. That has been delegated to the DOF and the head of recruitment.

This outdated system were the manager is at the top of the football pyramid and were a banker is tasked to take football decisions has lead to over 1billion lost in transfers and 4 managers being sacked at a row. Thus I am hoping that the Glazers will finally realise that and change it adequately. We need to separate the financials from football with the latter having its own CEO, its DOF and its head of recruitment. All of these roles should be covered by experienced people rather then figure heads who are here because they are top of their game. Many insist that United's biggest problem is having business people taking football decisions and they are right. However another big problem of United is nepotism. Judge has gone to the same university Woodward has gone, Carrick, Butt, Phelan and Clegg are former United players like Ole is (all of whom got the job because of that) while Dempsey and Hartis had been working with Ole at Cardiff. That needs to change
Thats all very reasonable.

Regarding our defensive woes, i think a solution might be as easy as a new keeper (ie Henderson). One that actually comes of his line once in a while and communicates and cooperates with his defenders. Right now i think he makes our defenders nervy, which again leads to more errors on their part
 

devilish

Juventus fan who used to support United
Joined
Sep 5, 2002
Messages
61,702
Thats all very reasonable.

Regarding our defensive woes, i think a solution might be as easy as a new keeper (ie Henderson). One that actually comes of his line once in a while and communicates and cooperates with his defenders. Right now i think he makes our defenders nervy, which again leads to more errors on their part
Replacing DDG with Henderson would be a start. We should also add a pacey CB and 2 top quality energic B2B to replace Matic/Fred/McT. The latter will improve us both defensively and attacking wise. We currently play Fred and McT as the base of a 4-2-3-1. That's ridiculous considering that the two had produced the combined assist sum of....erm....2. To put things into perspective AWB (a defensive WB) has 7 assist while 'quality registas' such as Philip Neville and Robbie Savage are all above the 20 assist + EACH.

However I can't help thinking that more experienced heads wouldn't have spent 80m on a slow CB given the circumstances and they wouldn't have offered a ridiculously long contract to DDG and Jones either. That has basically tied our hands for the near future to say the least. We need people who can look at the bigger picture and build an effective side built around players with the right characteristics to fit in together. Sir Alex was a master on that. He squeezed the last ounce of talent from his ageing stars by handpicking workhorses (Valencia, Young, Cleverley) who could do the running and adding to the mix a proven finisher (RVP) who could convert the limited chances created into goals. We're doing the exact opposite instead (ie add as many stars possible and hope that they will save our arse through their individual effort)
 

elnorte

Freaky fly day
Joined
Aug 10, 2009
Messages
5,063
Much of it comes down to Maguire and AWB. I guess if you believe them to be both top class then we are very close.
 

city-puma

Full Member
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
3,279
Location
NYC
I believe we are in the title challenge now after the poor start. If we can truly figure out how to play the first 20-25 mins against the high-pressing teams consistently, we will have great opportunities this season. For the box-packing teams, we seem already figuring out how to play them. Guys, we as fans need to believe!
 

Nick7

Full Member
Joined
Jan 24, 2011
Messages
19,320
Location
Ireland
If every one of our players play at their top down for every game for the rest of the season, we could win the league. They won’t, though as they only ever hit that level fleetingly through games.
 

Dante

Average bang
Joined
Oct 22, 2010
Messages
25,280
Location
My wit's end
Ole needs an assistant who specialises in defensive coaching.

Hell... we could do worse than bringing Rio into the fold.
 

Giggsy13

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
4,343
Location
Toronto
We will need a lot of luck and better consistency from some of the flakes in our squad like Martial and Pogba if we’re going to challenge. So far the trend is that we buckle in big moments. To go from 33 points out to champions is almost unheard of as well. We’ll have to take the dipper route, come close a few times before the squad finally figures out the level required on a match to match basis to win the league.
 

Giggsyking

Full Member
Joined
Aug 24, 2013
Messages
8,507
Ole needs an assistant who specialises in defensive coaching.

Hell... we could do worse than bringing Rio into the fold.
And needs an assistant who is specialist in attacking patterns to help him break teams. He also needs an assistant who prepare the team tactics before every game so we dont go into games already loosing 2 nil. All in all, he needs a new manager who does the work and he only takes credit for that so that his fan boys be happy.
 

Eric's-collar

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
46
There's enough quality in the squad to make a challenge, especially in a season where there's been no standout so far, but I suspect Ole just isn't a good enough manager to knit it together to do that.
I happen to agree, with a decent manager we could def challenge, not win but at least hang around until the latter weeks, just think Ole comes up short
 
Joined
Jul 31, 2015
Messages
22,908
Location
Somewhere out there
Depends innit?

I mean, who'd have thought the following would become the best side in Europe.

Roma

Youth team Southampton Free transfer Hull City

Jordan Henderson Fabinho
Newcastle

Roma Southampton
Wolves
Managers are that important. Most managers could win stuff with Ramos, Varane, Marcelo, Kroos, Modric, Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema but if that's what our manager needs, we are a long long way off.
A manager who needs less though and can make much more from a team than the sum of it's parts, honestly, who knows how far away? No idea.
 

Leftback99

Might have a bedwetting fetish.
Joined
Jan 11, 2015
Messages
14,423
Still miles away. We're a borderline top 4 team with big flaws in our best 11.
 

Zen

Full Member
Joined
Aug 11, 2008
Messages
14,525
Depends innit?

I mean, who'd have thought the following would become the best side in Europe.

Roma

Youth team Southampton Free transfer Hull City

Jordan Henderson Fabinho
Newcastle

Roma Southampton
Wolves
Managers are that important. Most managers could win stuff with Ramos, Varane, Marcelo, Kroos, Modric, Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema but if that's what our manager needs, we are a long long way off.
A manager who needs less though and can make much more from a team than the sum of it's parts, honestly, who knows how far away? No idea.
I'm not sure what the point is in naming players ex-teams, they've got to come from somewhere? Is it because Hull just doesn't sound as exotic as Lens?


Liverpool have looked for players with the mentality to match up with Klopp - not necessarily the full on talent.
 

Wilt

Full Member
Joined
May 22, 2017
Messages
6,725
We’ve got the squad to do it but not the right manager

I see it like having an F1 car and asking Jeremy Clarkson to drive it
 

hastoro11

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 15, 2020
Messages
30
Welll, if they can raise the revenue to get him they should...

1. He pretty much singlehandedly saved Aston Villa from regulation (He would probably be a United player, if he hadn't)
2. Right now he's sits at number 3 for assists in the premier league
3. He was at the top of Ole's transfers list, but managers at United tend to get players completely different than they ask for.

Probably priced to high out of the market now unfortunately, but I can't see him staying at Villa for his whole career.
Grealish almost exclusively plays on the left side and hardly ever goes over to the right. We're crowded on the left with Bruno, Rashford, Martial, on the other hand we have only AWB trying to do some attacks from the right. Grealish is not an answer to that problem.
 

NoPace

Full Member
Joined
Jan 20, 2014
Messages
9,419
Big upgrades at Manager, the #6 and an LCB (and probably a RB to split time with Wan-Bissaka but if you squint could maybe do without it) and then we can talk about a title challenge.
 

Saint Jonez

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
6
I've been reading here for almost 3 years now and from my outside perspective United are never going to challenge for any title in the next 10 years as it was almost the last 10 years except for Europa League but guess what, teams like Real, Bayern, City, PSG and Barca as bad as they are right now are not and most likely never going to play Europa League .Players like McT, Magic, AWB, DDG, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw are bang average players who are either way past their peak or will never develop into the player the club expected them to be.

None of those players would start for any top 10 team in Europe. But all of them start in the final match of the group stage.

United basically set a fundament that is designated to fail. The club needs a complete reset and just keep the likes of Rashford, Greenwood, Martial or Fernandes in the club.
The rest is useless deadwood on high wages that no club wants to have.

I don't know exactly how many hundreds of millions united spent over the last 7-8 years but it's like you give someone 100million dollars and tell him to buy a house and he comes back with a sack of potatoes.

Thinking it just takes a few signings and another manager is delusional. And the reality is, nothing is going to change. United gets milked by their owners and they couldn't care less what position they end up, weather it's the league or CL. The club will take the same path as AC Milan and Inter and will become a Tier 3 team that has no business winning anything. Like Arsenal, Leverkusen or Valencia as other prominent examples.

Another thing is the sheer arrogance of many united fans who see all those things but think that this is a period or that united deserves better or is better than this, they are not. It's very unlikely that with increasing strength of the mid table premier league clubs that manchester united will become what they once we're. A premier league powerhouse that dominates the league and has a good shot winning the champions league. Nowadays United has to fight for a top4 spot. Bad football, bad players, bad coach, horrible board, covid, delusional expectations from fans. The last year's have proven that already. Things could have been different but they aren't. High wages, low identification, bad transfers. Everyone who joins united milks the club and offers nothing in return that's worth the money except for Bruno Fernandes maybe.

The judgement of the people having something to say at united is as bad as it could get and that's the reason united isnt going to challenge for anything within the next 10years or even more if the Glazer's don't sell.
 

Giggsy13

Full Member
Joined
Aug 27, 2016
Messages
4,343
Location
Toronto
I'm not sure what the point is in naming players ex-teams, they've got to come from somewhere? Is it because Hull just doesn't sound as exotic as Lens?


Liverpool have looked for players with the mentality to match up with Klopp - not necessarily the full on talent.
This and the dippers were smart to sell a luxury player in Coutinho for a ridiculous price to address other glaring needs in the squad. Similarly, we have Pogba but have missed the boat on maximizing his sale price.
 

VP89

Pogba's biggest fan
Joined
Dec 6, 2015
Messages
31,630
I firmly believe this squad is showing performances that's less than its actual quality and performances.
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
53,217
I've been reading here for almost 3 years now and from my outside perspective United are never going to challenge for any title in the next 10 years as it was almost the last 10 years except for Europa League but guess what, teams like Real, Bayern, City, PSG and Barca as bad as they are right now are not and most likely never going to play Europa League .Players like McT, Magic, AWB, DDG, Maguire, Lindelof, Shaw are bang average players who are either way past their peak or will never develop into the player the club expected them to be.

None of those players would start for any top 10 team in Europe. But all of them start in the final match of the group stage.

United basically set a fundament that is designated to fail. The club needs a complete reset and just keep the likes of Rashford, Greenwood, Martial or Fernandes in the club.
The rest is useless deadwood on high wages that no club wants to have.

I don't know exactly how many hundreds of millions united spent over the last 7-8 years but it's like you give someone 100million dollars and tell him to buy a house and he comes back with a sack of potatoes.

Thinking it just takes a few signings and another manager is delusional. And the reality is, nothing is going to change. United gets milked by their owners and they couldn't care less what position they end up, weather it's the league or CL. The club will take the same path as AC Milan and Inter and will become a Tier 3 team that has no business winning anything. Like Arsenal, Leverkusen or Valencia as other prominent examples.

Another thing is the sheer arrogance of many united fans who see all those things but think that this is a period or that united deserves better or is better than this, they are not. It's very unlikely that with increasing strength of the mid table premier league clubs that manchester united will become what they once we're. A premier league powerhouse that dominates the league and has a good shot winning the champions league. Nowadays United has to fight for a top4 spot. Bad football, bad players, bad coach, horrible board, covid, delusional expectations from fans. The last year's have proven that already. Things could have been different but they aren't. High wages, low identification, bad transfers. Everyone who joins united milks the club and offers nothing in return that's worth the money except for Bruno Fernandes maybe.

The judgement of the people having something to say at united is as bad as it could get and that's the reason united isnt going to challenge for anything within the next 10years or even more if the Glazer's don't sell.
City a couple of beatings of poor teams the last two weeks aside haven't exactly looked red hot this season.
They've spent more than us and have this supposed legendary manager. Yet they're below us.

And Barcelona, have you seen their current league position in their 2 team league?
 

Sandikan

aka sex on the beach
Joined
Mar 14, 2011
Messages
53,217
Please tell me you didn't really just try to suggest that we're currently better than City ...
Let's see how tomorrow goes!

But why do fans always go out of their way to say we're so much worse than our position yet give the likes of City this weird sort of license to be doing even worse so far?
The league table does not lie.

Think how dreadful we were in the first month of the season. Then realise City have been worse to be lower than us.
 

Saint Jonez

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 9, 2020
Messages
6
City a couple of beatings of poor teams the last two weeks aside haven't exactly looked red hot this season.
They've spent more than us and have this supposed legendary manager. Yet they're below us.

And Barcelona, have you seen their current league position in their 2 team league?
That is true but the way city is playing it's getting exactly the results needed against the smaller opposition's with some consistenty that united simply doesn't show regularly. I am a bayern fan and I can tell you one thing. With pep you don't win against the best teams in Europe but you surely dominate the league which has less quality than the CL overall. I think the way city and it's players combine with Guardiola surely isn't a CL winning mixture. But it's definetly one keeping united behind them every single season.

Barcelona is the same as City, I mean their type of football is pretty equal in some sense. More than enough to keep 17-18 teams behind them in the league due to consisteny but too little to challenged perfectly drilled teams in the CL.
 

Brad2020

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Dec 10, 2020
Messages
91
Grealish almost exclusively plays on the left side and hardly ever goes over to the right. We're crowded on the left with Bruno, Rashford, Martial, on the other hand we have only AWB trying to do some attacks from the right. Grealish is not an answer to that problem.
I realize that but Fernandez is right footed, Oli was looking to acquire another attacking midfielder, to play high off the pitch, but he got Va Der Beek instead. (A problem at United, Woodward brining in players that aren't on the managers list, I'm glad he is here though, because I knew Pogba was going to leave)

At any rate, as much as I would like Grealish to come, it will most likely not happen. The owner of Aston Villa is richer than the Glazer's, and would probably ask for an unreasonably high transfer fee, to let him go to United.
 

Footy van de Geek

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Messages
562
@Footy van de Geek that squad is still riddled with the same serial losers.
Our squad is full of winners' medals. You are being overly pessimistic.

I think Ole is holding back the potential of the squad due to his preference towards 4-2-3-1 and his lack of tactical nous.

Liverpool had very few winners in their squad before winning The CL. van Dijk and Milner were the main two.

We don't lack experience or quality. Our issue remains at board level, and the backroom staff (coaching in particular).
 

lex talionis

Full Member
Joined
Jul 25, 2017
Messages
14,020
The squad is much further off than it should be by now, seven years after our last PL trophy lift. I respect what Ole has accomplished so far, but he's not the man to lead us to the promised land of a proper PL and CL challenge. I hope I'm wrong, but I fear that I am right.

Get ready for another rebuild, mates.
 

UNITED ACADEMY

New Member
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
13,127
Supports
Erik ten Hag
Depends innit?

I mean, who'd have thought the following would become the best side in Europe.

Roma

Youth team Southampton Free transfer Hull City

Jordan Henderson Fabinho
Newcastle

Roma Southampton
Wolves
Managers are that important. Most managers could win stuff with Ramos, Varane, Marcelo, Kroos, Modric, Ronaldo, Bale, Benzema but if that's what our manager needs, we are a long long way off.
A manager who needs less though and can make much more from a team than the sum of it's parts, honestly, who knows how far away? No idea.
Players were coming from is what I’m not sure why that even matters. Van Dijk was one of the best centre back in the league at Southampton, he was highly rated at Southampton. Even higher rated than Aldeweireld before his move to Spurs.

Mane was also highly rated, he was Southampton best player and Salah scored 29 league goals at Roma in 2 seasons combined which tells you his potential and Allison was Brazilian no 1 keeper in the national team when he was at Rome above Ederson in pecking order. I can go on but I’m not going to because where the players were coming from really don’t matter as long as they show the potential what they can become which they did. Although, still credit to Klopp and Liverpool’s recruitment team to be able to identify and sign the right players and unleash their potential.
 

ghaliboy

Snitches on Tom Hagen
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
11,290
Location
Sydchester
I think Ole is holding back the potential of the squad due to his preference towards 4-2-3-1 and his lack of tactical nous.
It doesn't matter what manager it will be, overpaid serial losers are still riddling the squad and can just drop clangers and walk away free of any blame.
 

edcunited1878

Full Member
Joined
Sep 3, 2014
Messages
8,935
Location
San Diego, CA
Our squad is full of winners' medals. You are being overly pessimistic.

I think Ole is holding back the potential of the squad due to his preference towards 4-2-3-1 and his lack of tactical nous.

Liverpool had very few winners in their squad before winning The CL. van Dijk and Milner were the main two.

We don't lack experience or quality. Our issue remains at board level, and the backroom staff (coaching in particular).
United lack a consistent level of player quality. The talent might be there, but the consistency of talent and output is a huge question mark. Martial did a good job as the 9 last season, had a terrific form after the restart but was stone walled versus Sevilla in the semifinal. This season so far is his worse form at United running on three months. Rashford hasn't kicked on as a player. He's actually been decent from the right actually. Greenwood has played okay, but he had a start stop season. He has to get going if Cavani cannot start twice a week (he shouldn't). But one of the most difficult things to do in sports is to perform at a high level year in year out, keep that drive and output. 3 of the 4 primary attackers are in that situation - have to keep that previous year's level and in most cases, improve on it.

Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood have not put a complete season together nor done it in consecutive seasons. They will and have shown their inconsistencies this season.

Not to excuse them, but AWB, Maguire, Greenwood, and I think McTominay just experienced their first CL group stage and it was against two top clubs.

4231 isn't holding United back. fecking Bayern play a 4231. Spurs play a 4231. Need better players with more consistent output for more points. Martial seriously needs to pick up form, Greenwood has to knuckle down and graft and allow his natural talent to shine. AWB and McTominay have to improve a lot. United have shown they can win without Pogba, but it will not improve unless the talent next to Fred significantly is better than Matic and McTominay...don't think thats too much of an issue whether a player is signed or VDB is thrown in there.
 

RedBanker

I love you Ole
Joined
Dec 13, 2017
Messages
2,672
Now that we are out of the only other meaningful competition, I don't see why we shouldn't give the league our best shot. The manager should ensure our exit from meaningless cups in the very next rounds and that should keep the core of the team fresh for every league game. Find an XI, don't tinker, and win every game possible.
 

el3mel

Full Member
Joined
Oct 23, 2016
Messages
43,735
Location
Egypt
It doesn't matter what manager it will be, overpaid serial losers are still riddling the squad and can just drop clangers and walk away free of any blame.
These overpaid serial losers saved the job for Ole ton of times now. Whenever he's under pressure they turn on and keep in job. Enough basing of the players. Most of them are doing their best. If they don't really care, Ole would have been sacked several months ago.
 

ghaliboy

Snitches on Tom Hagen
Joined
Apr 29, 2009
Messages
11,290
Location
Sydchester
These overpaid serial losers saved the job for Ole ton of times now. Whenever he's under pressure they turn on and keep in job. Enough basing of the players. Most of them are doing their best. If they don't really care, Ole would have been sacked several months ago.
And? Ole can get sacked at any time. It won't make a difference to the scenario as the new manager can come in and the players know they can shirk responsibility and play to the crowd who ultimately absolve them. Their job is to turn up on match day and win games. When they win you can't go "they saved the manager" and when they lose say "stop basing the players" those two scenarios cancel each other out. This is the sort of responsibility shirking that I'm talking about, people jumping to their aid to shout about the manager and absolve them. They're well paid professionals at one of the biggest clubs in the world, not a pub team of tradesmen that need wrangling to turn up on match day not half pissed up from work drinks the night before.

Back to the point at hand, it isn't the manager. It's the players and we're miles off. We're miles off mentally, technically and in terms of personal responsibility. As long as this crop have an audience to play the violins too they know they can play themselves into the bin and come out the bottom into the car park and drive home without a care in the world.
 

DRM

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 8, 2017
Messages
4,227
Quite far. We just don't have the pedigree to win a title. Plus the likes of Liverpool, city, Chelsea and spurs are much better than us
 

Footy van de Geek

New Member
Newbie
Joined
Oct 27, 2020
Messages
562
United lack a consistent level of player quality. The talent might be there, but the consistency of talent and output is a huge question mark. Martial did a good job as the 9 last season, had a terrific form after the restart but was stone walled versus Sevilla in the semifinal. This season so far is his worse form at United running on three months. Rashford hasn't kicked on as a player. He's actually been decent from the right actually. Greenwood has played okay, but he had a start stop season. He has to get going if Cavani cannot start twice a week (he shouldn't). But one of the most difficult things to do in sports is to perform at a high level year in year out, keep that drive and output. 3 of the 4 primary attackers are in that situation - have to keep that previous year's level and in most cases, improve on it.

Rashford, Martial, and Greenwood have not put a complete season together nor done it in consecutive seasons. They will and have shown their inconsistencies this season.

Not to excuse them, but AWB, Maguire, Greenwood, and I think McTominay just experienced their first CL group stage and it was against two top clubs.

4231 isn't holding United back. fecking Bayern play a 4231. Spurs play a 4231. Need better players with more consistent output for more points. Martial seriously needs to pick up form, Greenwood has to knuckle down and graft and allow his natural talent to shine. AWB and McTominay have to improve a lot. United have shown they can win without Pogba, but it will not improve unless the talent next to Fred significantly is better than Matic and McTominay...don't think thats too much of an issue whether a player is signed or VDB is thrown in there.
The number #10 role is largely dead. Most teams now opt for the extra security and flexibility of a midfield three over a sole creative AM with a double pivot behind him.

Bayern make it work because they have Müller who is a highly versatile and intelligent player who can dovetail with Lewandowski or drop into midfield to provide a numerical advantage when needed. And he's also very hard working.

Bruno makes it work for us because he has similar traits to Müller.

There's a reason why players like Özil, Mata and James have become obsolete to a certain extent. Teams no longer play with a creative #10 who doesn't put a shift in. You either adapt to a wide position or learn to play in a midfield three.

KDB & David Silva adapted to become hybrid #10's who are multifunctional. They are involved in more phases of the play.

7-10 years ago, 4-2-3-1 was the standard formation. Nearly everyone was using it. Özil, Sneijder, Mata, etc. All key players for their teams.

The game has evolved, as it always does. Pressing is the new trend. Having the entire team work together to squeeze the opposition. You can't get away with being a just creative #10 anymore. That's why we've seen many players like Özil fall away. Some can't adapt to a new position or role.

Bayern: 4-2-3-1
Liverpool 4-3-3 (sometimes 4-2-3-1 with Jota)
Real: 4-3-3
Barcelona: 4-3-3
Atlético: 4-4-2
Sevilla: 4-3-3
City: 4-3-3/4-1-4-1
Chelsea: 4-3-3
Arsenal: 3-4-3
Leicester: 4-3-3/4-1-4-1
Spurs 4-2-3-1 (sometimes 4-3-3)
Dortmund: 3-4-2-1
Leipzig: Multiple formations
Monchengladbach: 4-2-3-1
Juventus: 4-3-3/4-3-1-2 last season (3-5-2 and 4-4-2 under Pirlo)
Inter: 3-5-2
Atalanta: 3-4-1-2
Lazio: 3-5-2
Milan: 4-2-3-1
PSG: 4-3-3
Lyon: 4-3-3 and 3-5-2
Ajax: 4-3-3
Salzburg: 4-4-2
Porto: Multiple formations
Benfica: 4-1-3-2
Sporting: 3-3-3-1/3-4-2-1