How good are we?

[ItsEssexRob]

Our players are absolutely fantastic and bizarrely underrated. The idea that our squad isn't as good as City's, has more injuries an only pushes them because of some "winners mentality" is absolutely ridiculous. Rafael isn't rated outside United you say? Fergies said he's been the best player at the club this year.

Has he? Thats bizarre given hes a player that is really not rated very highly outside of the club. Better than Valencia and Rooney? Are you certain he said this, do you have the news link?

I know you always think your own players are fantastic, and that comes down mostly to exaggerating anything good they do and playing down anything poor,but sometimes you have to take a step back, a lot of the players are fantastic and attack wise you are top notch, but Jones, Smalling, DDG, Rafael,Cleverly, Kagawa are all unfinished, or unknowns. All of those have time and the chance to become great( Rafael I'm not sure about) but to call them fantastic already is not recognizing the players faults.

Besides the mental aspects I mention are extremely commendable assets, you would think they were negatives the way you put it across!

 

[Tomuś]

Rafael is really not rated at all outside of United. Although a very nice goal against your biggest rivals always helps to endear himself to the fans!


Kagawa is talented no doubt, but struggled to adapt so far, he remains to be seen, so I cant really say much.

Even if Rafael wasn't rated outside of United, and he is now, it would mean feck all, he's the best right-back in Premiership currently.

As for Kagawa, it's way way too early to say 'he struggles to adjust'. Where does it come from? He's played a few games, two of which he was motm and didn't look out of place in the rest of those. Then came the injury obviously. Anything less than 3/4 months of week in week out football is too little to make such statement.

 

[Orton]

Has he? Thats bizarre given hes a player that is really not rated very highly outside of the club. Better than Valencia and Rooney? Are you certain he said this, do you have the news link?

I know you always think your own players are fantastic, and that comes down mostly to exaggerating anything good they do and playing down anything poor,but sometimes you have to take a step back, a lot of the players are fantastic and attack wise you are top notch, but Jones, Smalling, DDG, Rafael,Cleverly, Kagawa are all unfinished, or unknowns. All of those have time and the chance to become great( Rafael I'm not sure about) but to call them fantastic already is not recognizing the players faults.

Besides the mental aspects I mention are extremely commendable assets, you would think they were negatives the way you put it across!

Why does it matter how Rafael is rated outside of United? Most Liverpool fans think they have better players than us bar a few positions. City fans think we are shit and wouldnt choose any of our players over theirs. It hardly matters what an opposition fan thinks of a United player. Fergie said he's been one of our beat players this season, look at the motm threads on here to see how the caf thinks he's been performing, and yes he has been much more consistent than Rooney and Valencia this season. Valencia has been very poor.

 

[ItsEssexRob]

Why does it matter how Rafael is rated outside of United? Most Liverpool fans think they have better players than us bar a few positions. City fans think we are shit and wouldnt choose any of our players over theirs. It hardly matters what an opposition fan thinks of a United player. Fergie said he's been one of our beat players this season, look at the motm threads on here to see how the caf thinks he's been performing, and yes he has been much more consistent than Rooney and Valencia this season. Valencia has been very poor.

Yeah but they are extremes. Liverpool fans often have trouble coming to terms with the fact their squad is average, and City think they have the best squad in the world. Outside of those extremes most football fans can usually judge players without letting the rivalry have an affect. If all the players were fantastic then what explains the bottom half showing in the defensive league?

Surely it correlates that you have a fantastic attack and a less than fantastic midfield/defence?

 

[Cina]

Rafael has not been the problem defensively though, our makeshift central pairings have, and the lack of cover they've been provided from midfield.

 

[Platato]

To be fair in my post I did clearly state you haven't got the best individuals except for the attack, meaning that in the attack you do.

Rafael is really not rated at all outside of United. Although a very nice goal against your biggest rivals always helps to endear himself to the fans!

Nani, always was very inconsistent and now hes started the season so poor its hard to suggest otherwise.

Valencia I always thought was the best winger you had and thought he had the attributes to become a top level player, but he has regressed this season, which is a shame for a player I really admired at Wigan. He still has time though.

Kagawa is talented no doubt, but struggled to adapt so far, he remains to be seen, so I cant really say much.
Cleverly has promise but again its too early to suggest what will happen there.

I name DDG shaky and Hart in the other section because Hart has only been shaky in recent times so it remains to be seen whether it is a blip, or something else. End of the day if you are going into an important match who would you feel more comfortable with in goal? DDG is young, he has time.

I also did not claim these players were shit, but that they are not as good as the collective team and results suggest. However this season I actually think the results do reflect that somewhat. Scoring lots and conceding lots indicates a top class attack covering up for an average midfield and poor defence.

When you get Jones and Vidic back that may improve, but thats not a certainty as one is young and the other is not quite as solid as he used to be.

Quality teams are not always built on having 'the best' players anyway, attitude, tactics, mentality and the manager play a huge part.

Yeah. Nani wasn't rated when he had his best season for us. People still viewed as this pretentious diver and one trick pony. Reputations.

 

[Platato]

Yeah but they are extremes. Liverpool fans often have trouble coming to terms with the fact their squad is average, and City think they have the best squad in the world. Outside of those extremes most football fans can usually judge players without letting the rivalry have an affect. If all the players were fantastic then what explains the bottom half showing in the defensive league?

Surely it correlates that you have a fantastic attack and a less than fantastic midfield/defence?

Where are these lads getting their information? I'm sure they dont watch United, week in, week out. There has to be something they're basing their opinions on. So even if they're not being so biased, if their source or sources leaves out a lot of context, then how much better off than are they really from a City fan?

If I just followed Norwich, I would have the slightest clue how well Rafael is doing. I would probably just remember his game against Bayern and think of how rash he is. You see my point? Even for fans who watch MOTD, it's a nice show, but they don't offer enough context or analysis for players who do well that might be more unknown.

I guarantee the more outlets comment on Rafael's progression and even suggest anything remotely close to being best in Prem, people will change their opinion. Our media has a huge effect on the general football populace.

 

[Platato]

We might not be looking like a perfectly oiled machine just yet, but what is important, and has been somewhat overlooked a bit, is the catalogue of injuries we have had to deal with so far this season, and yet still we sit on top of the PL, ahead by 6 points and we qualified for the CL knockout stages with two games to spare.

I don't want to harp on about it but which other PL team do you think could be where we are with the same amount of injuries to key players that we've had to deal with? City? Chelsea? - they're in far worse positions and out of the CL completely, with only a small fraction of the injury lay-offs that we've had.

Jones, Smalling, Vidic, Young, Kagawa, Nani, Anderson, Rooney and Valencia all out for long periods already and Fletcher only having featured in a couple PL games so far. Tell me where City would be with Tevez out for as long as Rooney was, Silva out as long as Kagawa was, Kompany out as long as Vida has been, Nasri out as long as Young or Nani has been and being forced to drop Toure back into CB like we have with Carrick. I don't think I'm exaggerating when I say it's quite amazing that we have come through all of that unscathed. We should take several positives from it.

Yes, it hasn't always been pretty but we've ground out wins and have a great team mentality and if we measure the quality of our performances and more importantly results on whether other teams could have done what we've done with the same amount of injuries I think we deserve praise for getting through that and still being where we are.

Surely with the injuries subsiding as we approach the business end of the season it's a massive plus for us and should lead to better all round performances.

I think it's because we have such a big squad. I can't really expand on why because it's mainly speculation but there are pros and cons with having a really big squad and we've seen the cons for the past 3 years now.

 

[Rozay]

Get real. We're no "shite team". Top of the table by six points before the festive period and top of our CL group. We've lost three games of any real consequence (I don't count the loss to Chelsea in the league cup as no one gives a fukk about it except the likes of Arsenal and lower division clubs) and each one saw us lose by only one goal. A "shite team" would be a club in Arsenal's or Liverpool's predicament, clubs with no hope of winning anything except the FA Cup and even then only through a lucky sequence of draws.

Can we be better? Of course. But the only way we're going to improve our game is if our top players return from the physic room. As long as half our starting XI are comprised of players who wouldn't ordinarily start if everyone were fully fit we'll have to work hard to get the wins we should be securing easily. Vidic would be a nice start. I'd like to have Ando back too. A happy and fit Nani would be welcome. Kagawa, who's got the quality to be a regular starter for us, should be coming back soon too.

You either misunderstood my post, or don't understand the meaning of the word 'team'.

There is no real cohesion, system or understanding in our play on a regular basis that sigguests we are a top 'team'. We have the ingredients within the squad to develop a good team, given we have top players, and with a bit of consistency in selection and gelling, we may well become one.

But there are so many teams in Europe who aren't even all that in terms of personnel who are better teams than us. We often look like strangers, which is the foundation of the 'zombie passing/movement' stuff. When a certain understanding isn't there, you have to play at a slower pace. We change our midfield every game, which is the area that sets the tone/tempo in a game - and this disruption more often than not just leads to us passing the ball to Valencia and standing still while we hope he does something. That isn't the hallmark of a top team.

We seem to stumble accross good performances nowadays as opposed to actually knowing what we'll get (to a certain degree) on a week-by-week basis.

Again, read my posts, I am not attacking the players individually, more a case of collectively. We can't defend as a team, our midfielders often don't support the attack, minimal off the ball running. But we have talented individuals, both in attack and defence that will see us through most games.

 

[Platato]

You either misunderstood my post, or don't understand the meaning of the word 'team'.

There is no real cohesion, system or understanding in our play on a regular basis that sigguests we are a top 'team'. We have the ingredients within the squad to develop a good team, given we have top players, and with a bit of consistency in selection and gelling, we may well become one.

But there are so many teams in Europe who aren't even all that in terms of personnel who are better teams than us. We often look like strangers, which is the foundation of the 'zombie passing/movement' stuff. When a certain understanding isn't there, you have to play at a slower pace. We change our midfield every game, which is the area that sets the tone/tempo in a game - and this disruption more often than not just leads to us passing the ball to Valencia and standing still while we hope he does something. That isn't the hallmark of a top team.

We seem to stumble accross good performances nowadays as opposed to actually knowing what we'll get (to a certain degree) on a week-by-week basis.

Again, read my posts, I am not attacking the players individually, more a case of collectively. We can't defend as a team, our midfielders often don't support the attack, minimal off the ball running. But we have talented individuals, both in attack and defence that will see us through most games.

Great points. City fan was trying to tell me how they're a level below teams like Dortmund in terms of quality Pathetic excuse! When you see teams like Dortmund, you know exactly how they're going to play. They have a collective team identity. Man for man, City is better than them but Dortmund is a much better collective unit and Klopp has players who believe in the system. Just shows having the best individuals doesn't always mean you're better off. If someone can make it work, you've got some team though.

 

[Rozay]

Great points. City fan was trying to tell me how they're a level below teams like Dortmund in terms of quality Pathetic excuse! When you see teams like Dortmund, you know exactly how they're going to play. They have a collective team identity. Man for man, City is better than them but Dortmund is a much better collective unit and Klopp has players who believe in the system. Just shows having the best individuals doesn't always mean you're better off. If someone can make it work, you've got some team though.

Agreed. This is why English teams have been outplayed in Europe of late against teams with even worse players than Dortmund - the likes of Shaktar, Ajax, Villareal, Napoli, Bilbao, Sporting, Atletico etc.

Perhaps their is too much money in the English game at the moment and as a result top clubs are taking less time to build an actual team. We can afford to just buy loads of great players every year here. That said, every season starts with you not having an idea whether it will work. It's always 'we need to see how Oscar/Hazard does, what the manager situation is like, what Balotelli/Tevez do, how RVP does'.

At the start of each season it's actually very hard to even pick a favourite here now. Not because we're all so great, but more because we need to even see what a team will look like this year. Collectively, the top English sides are as far behind other European sides at the moment as I can remember them being for a while.

 

[Platato]

Agreed. This is why English teams have been outplayed in Europe of late against teams with even worse players than Dortmund - the likes of Shaktar, Ajax, Villareal, Napoli, Bilbao, Sporting, Atletico etc.

Perhaps their is too much money in the English game at the moment and as a result top clubs are taking less time to build an actual team. We can afford to just buy loads of great players every year here. That said, every season starts with you not having an idea whether it will work. It's always 'we need to see how Oscar/Hazard does, what the manager situation is like, what Balotelli/Tevez do, how RVP does'.

At the start of each season it's actually very hard to even pick a favourite here now. Not because we're all so great, but more because we need to even see what a team will look like this year. Collectively, the top English sides are as far behind other European sides at the moment as I can remember them being for a while.

Spot on. I'm sure the top English sides can improve. The quality is there. Depends if it can all be put together.

 

[pj stretfordend]

I think a 6 point lead is flattering if we had been a anything like our usual selfs we would have walked the league last year its going to be close again this season.
Hats off to fergie for getting the best out of some average players he gels a team together brilliantly and shows you don't always need a team full of superstars I think our class up front and in wide positions is carrying us through