The fact that they are becoming deadwood should mean you're progressing in fairness. It's not like James got worse, we just didn't need him any more. I'm starting to think the same of AWB.
How long until Ole's signings also join the deadwood list?
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Slabhead could be a solid CB in our squad but not for the lineup IMO. We need a starting CB next to Rapha
In regards to AWB - if Ralf(or the next manager) isn't sure that he can help him to develop his offensive side - get rid of him and bring someone else
In regards to AWB - if Ralf(or the next manager) isn't sure that he can help him to develop his offensive side - get rid of him and bring someone else
I'd agree with that. Maguires main problem is the price tag. I dont think he's good enough to be a regular starter but because of his cost, he kinda has to be.
No. They were just both never good enough for United in the first place.
James was quick and never showed much else. We bought him because he was "young and British" and that was our 5 year plan that month. AWB is definitely better but still might not be good enough.
AWB was a massive improvement on what we had. You might not like him but that is a fact.
Maguire is easily good enough alongside Varane, without wanting to sound like a broken record he badly suffers from having no relationship with the goalkeeper but overall he's more than competent despite having a relatively poor season.
To be honest I think Maguire, Varane with Lindelof as a back-up are fine at any level, if you bring a midfielder in to offer proper protection I don't see why we wouldn't see a dramatic improvement in that area.
I would say we have much bigger issues at full back that centre back.
So in terms of this thread, we may be seeing AWB enter the deadwood area but he was a huge upgrade at the time so it's difficult to be too critical. Maguire was overpriced but the blame with that one has to lie with Woodward as he'd pretty publicly been available for circa £50m the year before which would have been a much fairer price and wouldn't have been so much pressure on him but after spending a full year chasing him they ended up having to cave and pay Leicester's higher price almost to save face. James was a £15m punt that we sold for £25m so it's difficult to knock that one, in a lot of respects I think he'd still be useful in the squad now but that's more for the raw pace and working just as hard backwards as he did forwards but a £10m profit on a relatively average player isn't bad business.
To be honest I think Maguire, Varane with Lindelof as a back-up are fine at any level, if you bring a midfielder in to offer proper protection I don't see why we wouldn't see a dramatic improvement in that area.
I would say we have much bigger issues at full back that centre back.
So in terms of this thread, we may be seeing AWB enter the deadwood area but he was a huge upgrade at the time so it's difficult to be too critical. Maguire was overpriced but the blame with that one has to lie with Woodward as he'd pretty publicly been available for circa £50m the year before which would have been a much fairer price and wouldn't have been so much pressure on him but after spending a full year chasing him they ended up having to cave and pay Leicester's higher price almost to save face. James was a £15m punt that we sold for £25m so it's difficult to knock that one, in a lot of respects I think he'd still be useful in the squad now but that's more for the raw pace and working just as hard backwards as he did forwards but a £10m profit on a relatively average player isn't bad business.
If the ambition is to win a trophy and the players that have been signed don't win a trophy, then its natural that you would look to replace them. That's football and its not just our club that does it.
Well he ultimately lost his place to Dalot who we already had at the time. And it is not like Dalot set the world alight at Milan or there were any signs of an improvement by leaps and bounds from him over the last years. I mean losing the place to someone does not necessarily mean that AWB is a worse player, but it certainly at least puts into question the claim that AWB was a "massive improvement" over Dalot in the first place.
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James was underrated. He provided the kind of thing elanga currently is but nobody else wanted to run. Elanga is potentially a much better player but I wonder who’ll have the better PL career? I bet there won’t be that much between them statistically over the next year or two. Systems always need hard runners who press and can execute if given a chance. Elanga is a better finisher but doing that selfless role. If we had the right striker/c forward we could be playing 3 really good oddball players off him and making it all work again. It all depends on the teams motivation aggression and fitness. If we don’t mix things up nothing will change. We need a long term striker. It’s the most pressing matter in the team now along with our new legend dm box to box whoever he is. Kessie is my shout. He’s a potential beast. On a free hes a no brainier.
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Yes, People already forgot that he replaced Ashley Young FFS so they're overly joyed when we added a full back that can actually defend well
Deadwood are unsellable AND unusable players.
But at the very least all of Ole's players will have a decent resale value because he's tended to buy either very young or top level proven.
So unless the board decide to give them DDG size wage increases, none of them will be unsellable.
The remainder, then, will obviously be usable and so can't be called deadwood by default.
But at the very least all of Ole's players will have a decent resale value because he's tended to buy either very young or top level proven.
So unless the board decide to give them DDG size wage increases, none of them will be unsellable.
The remainder, then, will obviously be usable and so can't be called deadwood by default.
You may have been 1 for 3 here
Realistic more like it. Never shown anything special let alone 80m special
I think we should look to entice Newcastle for Maguire. They need names and they got money. Since they got Trippier, don't think we can stick them with AWB.
If a player gets way above its value then its up to the transfer committee to switch transfer target. That's what Shitty did when they thought that Maguire was not worth the hassle financially wise. The fact that our transfer committee (including Ole) was happy spending 80m on him means that the blame should fall right on their laps.
Regarding Maguire and AWB, the issue with them is not solely about the fee but the fact that their characteristics are unsuited for a top club whose forced to play with a high line. AWB simply lack the attacking prowess needed by an attacking fullback and Maguire is simply too slow. Someone at OT should have had the tactical acumen to identify that.
Dalot was constantly injured and nowhere near ready to be first choice. You can't genuinely believe we could have managed without AWB back then.
Wan Bissaka will be perfectly useful in bigger games against the likes of Sterling or Mane, who'd run circles around Dalot and we'd not have the ball enough to overcome that match up. This recent run of games has been especially soft, so we could get use Dalot more.
They are all falling apart.
How badly have we been conditioned that we've almost resigned to the fact that whenever we play against Liverpool in the near future, they'll be the bigger team and we'll have to make adjustments to nullify them, instead of imposing our game on them. Makes me sad.
What you're saying is right though. Just sad at the same time.
Maguire isn't going anywhere until we buy a CB first.
The chances of that happening is not big due to the other gaps we have in the squad and even if the fans are crying about him not being worth 80 mil - that doesn't exactly mean he is worthless either.
Sancho is fine. Telles is not exactly deadwood because he is useful as a squad player for some games.
Wan Bissaka is the player with one world class ability. The next manager will decide if this is useful to keep as part of the squad or sell him.
Varane is not deadwood.
Ronaldo will likely leave us.
Amad has potential to work himself to the RW/RF spot especially after Ronaldo & Cavani leaves due to their ages.
The chances of that happening is not big due to the other gaps we have in the squad and even if the fans are crying about him not being worth 80 mil - that doesn't exactly mean he is worthless either.
Sancho is fine. Telles is not exactly deadwood because he is useful as a squad player for some games.
Wan Bissaka is the player with one world class ability. The next manager will decide if this is useful to keep as part of the squad or sell him.
Varane is not deadwood.
Ronaldo will likely leave us.
Amad has potential to work himself to the RW/RF spot especially after Ronaldo & Cavani leaves due to their ages.
Only one closest to deadwood is AWB, and I wouldn't necessarily class him as that just yet unless we go a whole season barely using him. Dalot could get a big injury, he could go completely out of form, we don't know yet. However I think even if AWB works his way back into the first 11, he's just not gonna be good enough for a team that wants to compete on all fronts.
£50m for a backup RB though is just...oof.
£50m for a backup RB though is just...oof.
Personally I think only DvdB is more or less a certainty to reach that status, while AWB is obviously in clear danger of doing so. Donny has the chance to change things at Everton, but it would take a lot for that to bring him back to United as an expected regular, it's hard to see that happen. But AWB might have a future as a squad player, even if he fails to regain his starter status.
I don't think Telles, Maguire, Varane, Ronaldo, Cavani or Sancho will end up as deadwood, and with Amad and Pellistri it's far too soon to tell.
AWB, DVB, and probably Amad and Pellistri (pellistri arguable as he was cheap and perhaps not for our 1st team) are there already.
Maguire horribly overpriced but remains to see if he's deadwood or just a bit crap.
Telles Varane Cavani (his 1st year) all reasonable signings.
Ronaldo arguable but can't put that on the manager.
Sancho time will tell.
Maguire horribly overpriced but remains to see if he's deadwood or just a bit crap.
Telles Varane Cavani (his 1st year) all reasonable signings.
Ronaldo arguable but can't put that on the manager.
Sancho time will tell.
I know the Ronnie fan boys will disagree (symptomatic of the fans who always seem obsessed with idolising a player/ manager and seem unable to see the bigger picture) but Ronaldo will go down as a truly awful signing. No surprise that whatever fragile unity existed in the dressing room evaporated with Ronaldo, stupid wages, he plays when he wants, sulks like a 5 year old if substituted, contributes little apart from waving arms a lot, and makes us astonishgly easy to play against. No surprise goals have dried up as teams know he can be ignored outside the box and that 90% of crosses etc will be aimed at him.
as for others, who exactly has been a stand out success. THis is not just Ole, all the crap fed to journos about scouting overhals, new data, character reviews etc etc. All b*llocks. All tha teffort to uncover AWB and Maguire, for stupid fees, and frankly they are average and poor respectively. Its a joke. Clubs a joke
Maguire is absolutely fine in a high line but needs a more offensive goalkeeper than DDG behind him because when pressed higher up the pitch his instinct is to look to the goalkeeper & DDG does not help out by making himself available for backpasses until far too late. The line we play is more to do with the goalkeeper than Maguire, hence we were no further up the pitch when he hasn’t played.
It is up to the transfer committee, but given we’d spent 12 months publicly interested in Maguire as I said in my view it became more of a face-saving thing in the end where they felt the had to buy him, even though the price had gone up by £30m or so - not defending that one iota by the way. That’s not on Ole as managers don’t get involved in the finances nowadays, if I remember rightly he’d put forward Ruben Dias an option before we signed Maguire & the club wouldn’t pay his release clause of £55-60m.
Amad and Pellistri are deadwood already what are you talking about???
Disagree, Maguire is not fine in a high line, its not how England play, dont remember Leicester but he needs not just a proactive keeper but also a pacey partner. But is is far off being anywhere near worth the money. I kind of like him but he is just too erratic, way to slow, passing too poor etc. After all our scouting how did we turn up with him? Anyone could see how good Virgil was at Southampton, he was the next Stam. Maguire and AWB just pointed to our appalling recruitment, we sign players that dont even fit into the team and current personnel, let alone whether they are good enough.
And completely agree that other teams like City walk away if too expensive. We seem to read the Sun and then pay double for any player linked with them. NO WAY was Pep ever signing Ronaldo, we were once again played by agents. And Fergie getting stuck in to transfer business, after Moyes and with all due respect tell him to but out.
While an offensive goalkeeper would help it would certainly not gift Maguire with more pace. The CB would still be vulnerable to pacey forwards who could easily beat him on a counter. Irrespective of that the transfer committee knew what sort of goalkeeper DDG was. They could have either replaced him or added a CB that suited his skills better. I mean its not as if we lack the funds to do that (we spent 130m on AWB and Maguire that year)
Regarding your second comment its not uncommon for clubs to switch targets. We did that many many times during SAF's era. Shitty conceded three transfer defeat against us in recent years (Sanchez, Maguire and Ronaldo). No one is laughing at them about it. In my opinion we lacked the tactic acumen to understand were football was heading too and to build a team towards that direction. As said Maguire and AWB are decent players for small-mid sized sides who defend with a deep line and with numbers. The problem is that these days top EPL clubs are being forced to play with a high line
Finally every manager is made aware of how much a player would cost as that would have an impact on other areas that he might want to enforce. In United's case, the manager is far more involved as we're still one of the few clubs in the world were manager still have a veto on transfer matters. The reality is that back then it was quite fashionable with the admin of the time to buy a British core with the right 'United DNA' who can understand what United is all about. In fact we used to joke around it calling ourselves Brexit FC.
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He replaced a 33 years old Ashley Young a winger who did a job at Lb. And at 50m you cant say he's better than a 33 years old Ashley let one a prime Aslhey young.
To be fair he certainly does play higher up the field for England than he has done for us the majority of the time, on a similar note he played a higher line last season for us with no issues when a different goalkeeper was behind him - and that was alongside Lindelof who is obviously a much slower partner than Varane. No one is making the argument that he is/was worth how much we paid for him, but frankly it's pointless to keep harking back to as this point given it was nearly 3 years ago. I wholeheartedly agree the scouting network should be much better and we on several occasions we have just signed players who on the face of it improve a position with no idea how they fit into what we are trying to do as a team, hopefully this is something that improves with Murtough working alongside Ralf and the new manager.
Couple of footnotes, Van Dijk was ALWAYS going to Liverpool. That was a done deal with the player for nearly 12 months before he eventually joined, he'd even been at Melwood twice over the summer without Southampton's knowledge. And Ronaldo was absolutely going to City, I know people seem to want to re-write history but that was definitely happening before we got involved. Now, whether Pep would continue to play him throughout bad patches of form is another question entirely.
Except he hasn't been particularly vulnerable to that pace, I appreciate he is slow and in some instances has looked like he's running through treacle alongside players but over the past 3 years how many goals has that cost us in reality? As for replacing the goalkeeper or bringing in players to play a deeper line which would suit him, I agree, it's crazy we haven't done so but that is how badly our planning was at that stage which we can only hope improves.
I know he was overpriced but as per this thread, he isn't deadwood. He's still the second best defender at the club and is a part of our strongest XI. The transfer fee was 3 years ago and under a completely different regime, they can't do anything about it, Maguire can't do anything about it, so it's pointless continuing to go on about it. It was bad business but he's not a bad player.
On the switching targets, I absolutely agree, if someone is too expensive you move on - as I said I wasn't defending it one iota. It appeared certain elements of our business was done by Ed Woodward on a dick-waving crusade at times and that is a completely insane way to do business which has in part led to the standard "Oh it's United that'll be £50m+" attitude that clubs have to our interest in literally any footballer nowadays. That is something I really hope improves over the coming seasons now he has gone.
They are already there, bar Bruno
Great OPHonestly, I'm cool with whatever the next manager wants. It was only very recently I said no player to me was off limits when it comes to shipping out, with the exception of Greenwood. You can guess what my opinion is now.
Yeah I have players I hope are part of the manager's plan (looking at you French handsome). But if not, so be it. Most of these players have become too unlikeable this season. I'm desperate for scapegoats
Maguire : No, there's still a good CB in there but his confidence, much like most of the team, is shot completely. I don't think he's captain material full-time either and you can question whether we can play a higher line with him in a back 2, though in a back 3 we may get away with it.
Overpriced ? sure, but I would keep him for the time being.
AWB : He frustrates me alot and you question whether he can make strides in the attacking sense but he still has attributes that can and should be developed upon.
I think a more offensive/progressive coach would like to work with him, purely because top coaches like challenges. Again, unless a insane offer comes in, I'd keep him around the team.
Bruno : Keep, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him wanting out, also I can't get this image out of my mind that he'd be perfect for Simeone's A. Madrid.
Varane : When he's fit he's been top class. Clearly has a future at the club if he wants it.
Beek : Just an absolute waste of everyone's time and money. Still can't get my head around what we're doing with the lad.
If a manager like Hag, who he's worked closely with before, doesn't come in, it'll be best for Beek to look elsewhere.
Be interesting to see how Lampard utilizes him in Everton though.
Sancho : Clearly has time on his side and he's starting to show alittle more confidence. Took his goal well in the disappointing Cup game.
Feel under a manager like Hag we'll gradually see the best of Sancho. Needs a fullback on the same wavelength though.
Telles : Can't see him staying around if a decent offer comes in. Sure he's a tidy enough player but the hype around him really was built on a impressive Youtube compilation , for the majority of the fanbase atleast. His dead ball delivery is underwhelming to say the least.
I feel he can be a player that is easily intimidated by any half decent wide player too and much like Shaw has a annoying tendency to not get close to his marker in wide areas.
Generally, he's abit of a meh/so-so player. Not amazing, not overly bad. He's just sort of there.
Cavani + Ronaldo : Neither are long term players and I expect atleast one to be gone in the summer. Both have had their moments but age and the physical aspects of top flight football are starting to take there tolls on both. With Cavani constantly picking up niggles and Ronaldo unable to control a ball most of times.
Alot of money spent (fees, wages, signing on fees) on two golden oldies.
Amad + Pellestri : Its simply far too early to tell.
Overpriced ? sure, but I would keep him for the time being.
AWB : He frustrates me alot and you question whether he can make strides in the attacking sense but he still has attributes that can and should be developed upon.
I think a more offensive/progressive coach would like to work with him, purely because top coaches like challenges. Again, unless a insane offer comes in, I'd keep him around the team.
Bruno : Keep, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him wanting out, also I can't get this image out of my mind that he'd be perfect for Simeone's A. Madrid.
Varane : When he's fit he's been top class. Clearly has a future at the club if he wants it.
Beek : Just an absolute waste of everyone's time and money. Still can't get my head around what we're doing with the lad.
If a manager like Hag, who he's worked closely with before, doesn't come in, it'll be best for Beek to look elsewhere.
Be interesting to see how Lampard utilizes him in Everton though.
Sancho : Clearly has time on his side and he's starting to show alittle more confidence. Took his goal well in the disappointing Cup game.
Feel under a manager like Hag we'll gradually see the best of Sancho. Needs a fullback on the same wavelength though.
Telles : Can't see him staying around if a decent offer comes in. Sure he's a tidy enough player but the hype around him really was built on a impressive Youtube compilation , for the majority of the fanbase atleast. His dead ball delivery is underwhelming to say the least.
I feel he can be a player that is easily intimidated by any half decent wide player too and much like Shaw has a annoying tendency to not get close to his marker in wide areas.
Generally, he's abit of a meh/so-so player. Not amazing, not overly bad. He's just sort of there.
Cavani + Ronaldo : Neither are long term players and I expect atleast one to be gone in the summer. Both have had their moments but age and the physical aspects of top flight football are starting to take there tolls on both. With Cavani constantly picking up niggles and Ronaldo unable to control a ball most of times.
Alot of money spent (fees, wages, signing on fees) on two golden oldies.
Amad + Pellestri : Its simply far too early to tell.
Maguire's lack of pace is a huge concern especially since he isn't particularly gifted with a superb positioning either. Add those two together and you'll have a CB whom while great with a smaller side who play with a deep line is not suited for the tactics United need to rely upon. That's something our transfer committee should have spotted especially since he'll be playing alongside DDG whose hardly great at going out of the penalty box. You certainly can't pin that on the CEO let alone Woodward who has no idea of football tactics whatsoever.
Does that makes him a deadwood? I can't answer to that. There will be times when Maguire will be useful to have around as he's got other skills as well (he's physically imposing, he's good in air etc). However he's more of a squad player type of CB, something that you simply can't have with an 80m rated CB. In my opinion, the situation is very much the same to the one we had with Veron. Similarly to Maguire, Veron was a big fee player, who was unsuited to our game and was let go for financial reasons (you don't keep a player on that salary on the bench)
If Newcastle get Ashworth he isn’t going to be spunking money on our dross unfortunately. After that I’m really struggling to see where we are going to offload any of the players to. Is anybody going to go out of their way to pay £20m or anything like it for AWB for example? I can’t see it
Well, Cavani and Ronaldo are either off in the summer or should be both booted as they're kinda useless.
Maguire is a harsh one. He's quite an average player but we got him for quite a large lump of money and it will look bad for him to be on the sidelines. If a harsher manager comes in though, he has no chance of keeping his place, no matter his form.
Telles will stay around, he's on good money and a very decent backup to Shaw/to a new LB.
I don't see Bruno staying for more than one season. He'd be a perfect player for Madrid/Barca/Bayern, especially considering the way he's moaning. But, let's be honest, he won't ever be considered deadwood.
Sancho will come good, no worries. The same with DVB.
AWB should feck off and rather quickly, as we can still get the odd 25mil back on him.
Varane will become deadwood rather quickly if he keeps up with them injuries.
Maguire is a harsh one. He's quite an average player but we got him for quite a large lump of money and it will look bad for him to be on the sidelines. If a harsher manager comes in though, he has no chance of keeping his place, no matter his form.
Telles will stay around, he's on good money and a very decent backup to Shaw/to a new LB.
I don't see Bruno staying for more than one season. He'd be a perfect player for Madrid/Barca/Bayern, especially considering the way he's moaning. But, let's be honest, he won't ever be considered deadwood.
Sancho will come good, no worries. The same with DVB.
AWB should feck off and rather quickly, as we can still get the odd 25mil back on him.
Varane will become deadwood rather quickly if he keeps up with them injuries.
Spot on! Go along with all of this.
Our real problem and has always been, is in midfield, we never replaced Carrick and until we do all the managers are just 'moving the deck chairs... etc'. My man Matic came nearest, especially when he first arrived, but Chelsea don't sell on that caliber of player that still have more than 2/ 3 seasons left in them and so its proved.
maybe 3 at the back?
But.....as I keep saying....we finished 2nd with 'deadwood' like AWB and Maguire starting 95% of the games last season.
It's easy to obsess over individuals, but we just got it massively wrong from a tactical perspective this year. We have already seen the back four have tightened up massively in just a few weeks with a bit more structure in-front of them.
Course it's tempting to focus on what players CAN'T do when results aren't good. We can wish Maguire was a bit quicker, or AWB was better on the ball, or Bruno retained possession better, or Rashford's link-up play was better etc....but apart from City, we're not playing Fantasy Football and every team will have it's flaws.
It's easy to obsess over individuals, but we just got it massively wrong from a tactical perspective this year. We have already seen the back four have tightened up massively in just a few weeks with a bit more structure in-front of them.
Course it's tempting to focus on what players CAN'T do when results aren't good. We can wish Maguire was a bit quicker, or AWB was better on the ball, or Bruno retained possession better, or Rashford's link-up play was better etc....but apart from City, we're not playing Fantasy Football and every team will have it's flaws.