How much trouble are Liverpool in?

[Longshanks]

They are definitely having a cycle off the inhalers and caffeine aren't they? They will be in the scrap for top four I think.

But they currently look very beatable and they are struggling with confidence, just shows that without the assisted crazy levels of intensity they are really pretty average.

 

[golden_blunder]

For their own sake they need relegated

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Said it before, will say it again. As soon as he got eye surgery and lost the specs, he’s been in trouble.

It’ll be like the day Pep wears a toupee, the fire will die a little inside him.

Not to mention the new teeth.

 

[Luffy]

For their own sake they need relegated

Congrats on 111,111 comments.

 

[CM]

Certainly looks as though they've come to the end of their cycle. Like with Pochettino at Spurs, they didn't make enough effort to refresh the squad with younger players and now they have a team that's grown old together.

Not sure Klopp has it in him for another rebuild. The money he will want won't be there, especially if they can't qualify for the Champions League next season.

 

[prateik]

Fabinho is only 29?

 

[Noot]

Liverpool fans like to blame the lack of squad depth but I think Klopp is symbiotic with that problem. For years he would stick to an almost identical XI every single game, until someone got injured/suspended/needed a game. Just think of the regular Liverpool side for most of the last few seasons - it rolls off the tongue: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mané, Salah, Firmino.

Over time Wijnaldum has been replaced by Thiago, Jota (and recently Diaz) has sometimes come into the front line and Gomez or Konate have played in place of Matip. But at least eight of the XI I just listed were starting pretty much every single game when fit. For years.

What I'm getting at is, Klopp isn't very good at rotating. He tends to prefer to play the same XI every game if he can. So why should the owners splash out on good squad players if their only role is to wait for someone to get injured and then step in? Tsimikas is perfect because he's cheap and won't mind not playing much. Origi was the same. A better backup left back or striker would demand that Klopp actually... you know... rotate his XI.

That's why injuries hit them so hard, because when guys like Van Dijk and are missing from that side they literally have no idea how to cope with it.

 

[Noot]

Fabinho is only 29?

He plays like he's far older, yeah.

 

[golden_blunder]

Don’t have Origi to save them from the bench anymore

 

[golden_blunder]

Congrats on 111,111 comments.

Agh if I’d known I’d have planned something special like banning @esmufc07 instead of wasting it on Liverpool

 

[Josh 76]

Liverpool fans like to blame the lack of squad depth but I think Klopp is symbiotic with that problem. For years he would stick to an almost identical XI every single game, until someone got injured/suspended/needed a game. Just think of the regular Liverpool side for most of the last few seasons - it rolls off the tongue: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mané, Salah, Firmino.

Over time Wijnaldum has been replaced by Thiago, Jota (and recently Diaz) has sometimes come into the front line and Gomez or Konate have played in place of Matip. But at least eight of the XI I just listed were starting pretty much every single game when fit. For years.

What I'm getting at is, Klopp isn't very good at rotating. He tends to prefer to play the same XI every game if he can. So why should the owners splash out on good squad players if their only role is to wait for someone to get injured and then step in? Tsimikas is perfect because he's cheap and won't mind not playing much. Origi was the same. A better backup left back or striker would demand that Klopp actually... you know... rotate his XI.

That's why injuries hit them so hard, because when guys like Van Dijk and are missing from that side they literally have no idea how to cope with it.

That’s a good point. During the untouchables, they were very very lucky they did not have any long term injuries. I can’t remember a time when anyone of those players were out for more than a couple of weeks. Maybe that had cost them in the end. Another point is what “world class” players could they have signed to sit on the bench? It’s not easy building big squads.

 

[OpenIntrovert]

They are definitely having a cycle off the inhalers and caffeine aren't they? They will be in the scrap for top four I think.

But they currently look very beatable and they are struggling with confidence, just shows that without the assisted crazy levels of intensity they are really pretty average.

In my view, its more of quality of the midfield due to their best midfielders suffering from injuries. Previously Liverpool's midfield had Henderson, Fabinho and one of Keita or Wijnaldum which was a very robust midfield. Due to Curtis Jones and Thiago's injuries, the mainstay happens to be Fabinho, Elliott and Henderson/Milner. When Henderson plays with Fabinho, Liverpool are still a match for any team's midfield but Henderson can't play every match, resulting in Milner taking his role. That is where the main damage happens as a midfield with Fabinho and Milner will be easily overrun with a midfield who are more dynamic and aggressive with their movement.

The other problem is Klopp's stubborn approach to tactics when players are not available (its the problem with all system managers). If he changed his formation shape to a 3-6-1 or a 3-5-2, he can actually overcome the issues with midfield injuries (should have done it in 20/21). However his insistence to stick to the same shape has resulted in the problems this season.

 

[Robbie Boy]

Players like Elliott and Jones are nowhere near good enough.

 

[Adam-Utd]

Klopp struck gold that most of his signings turned into great players.

the front 3, LB both CBs and goalkeeper all heavily improved them. Throw in TAA who also became key and a hard working midfield, it’s no wonder they became such a force.

The issue is that magestic front 3 has broken up, firmino isn’t the same and Salah can’t do it all alone.

The midfield is getting older and can’t run the same, robertson is picking up injuries, VVD looks half assed and TAA is too busy dreaming of assists rather than defending.

This next period will prove whether Klopp is up there with the very best. Can he rebuild a team for another sustained period? or did he luck out the first time.

 

[Murder on Zidane's Floor]

Finally that stupid Van Dijk stat of not losing at Anfield is gone.

 

[TwoSheds]

Liverpool fans like to blame the lack of squad depth but I think Klopp is symbiotic with that problem. For years he would stick to an almost identical XI every single game, until someone got injured/suspended/needed a game. Just think of the regular Liverpool side for most of the last few seasons - it rolls off the tongue: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mané, Salah, Firmino.

Over time Wijnaldum has been replaced by Thiago, Jota (and recently Diaz) has sometimes come into the front line and Gomez or Konate have played in place of Matip. But at least eight of the XI I just listed were starting pretty much every single game when fit. For years.

What I'm getting at is, Klopp isn't very good at rotating. He tends to prefer to play the same XI every game if he can. So why should the owners splash out on good squad players if their only role is to wait for someone to get injured and then step in? Tsimikas is perfect because he's cheap and won't mind not playing much. Origi was the same. A better backup left back or striker would demand that Klopp actually... you know... rotate his XI.

That's why injuries hit them so hard, because when guys like Van Dijk and are missing from that side they literally have no idea how to cope with it.

I think Tsimikas is a bad example, he's better than Robertson.

 

[Galactic]

Klopp’s pool plays high pressing (i.e. choke the football out of opponents / stop opponents playing football as quick as possible) mostly attractively admittedly but they also had lots of luck in crucial games like last minute goals and opponent making stupid mistakes. Luck seems to have deserted them this season. But it’s still early days. They’ll surely turn the tide around. They still have loads of quality and strength in depth. Consistency is their main issue.

 

[1988]

 

[GaryLifo]

At their best they used to win games in the first 15-20 minutes of each half and then conserve energy. So many managers also played perfectly into their hands by trying to play it out from the back against their psycho press.

How often was the game already over at Anfield within 15-20 minutes including at least one goal where a defender got robbed of the ball in possession?

Tactics of the opposition eventually catch up to any successful system. This in combination with Liverpool just dropping below their previous levels of energy has been what's done for them.

 

[Remember the geese]

Players like Elliott and Jones are nowhere near good enough.

I always say that I love seeing those two in the starting eleven. Especially Jones. I think Elliott has potential, but he plays far too often. Long may it continue!

 

[Tincanalley]

Energy gone out of this thread. Funny, isn’t it? Good sign for United. Team playing half decent now. Liverpool actually poor, not just wishful wishing poor. We kind of moved on from the shock of being above them. Other fish to fry. Could all change again of course, but this feels like a different phase.

 

[Thisistheone]

For years Klopp had them running opponents into the ground. It’s amazing they lasted this long before burn out. Like an old phone that’s had a hammering for years, the battery can no longer hold its charge

 

[Sparky Rhiwabon]

Fabinho is only 29?

In Brazilian years

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[11101]

Liverpool fans like to blame the lack of squad depth but I think Klopp is symbiotic with that problem. For years he would stick to an almost identical XI every single game, until someone got injured/suspended/needed a game. Just think of the regular Liverpool side for most of the last few seasons - it rolls off the tongue: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mané, Salah, Firmino.

Over time Wijnaldum has been replaced by Thiago, Jota (and recently Diaz) has sometimes come into the front line and Gomez or Konate have played in place of Matip. But at least eight of the XI I just listed were starting pretty much every single game when fit. For years.

What I'm getting at is, Klopp isn't very good at rotating. He tends to prefer to play the same XI every game if he can. So why should the owners splash out on good squad players if their only role is to wait for someone to get injured and then step in? Tsimikas is perfect because he's cheap and won't mind not playing much. Origi was the same. A better backup left back or striker would demand that Klopp actually... you know... rotate his XI.

That's why injuries hit them so hard, because when guys like Van Dijk and are missing from that side they literally have no idea how to cope with it.

Thats a good point and refers back to that weird stat that SAF's best 11 in 99 only actually played together once. He was a master of squad management.

The thing is I think you can say the same thing about Guardiola's Barcelona, and just about any great team. Virtually none of those managers rebuilt beyond one generation. They all relied heavily on a core lineup.

 

[Robertd0803]

For their own sake they need relegated

Even if they were, you just know their fans would try claim winning the Championship as another league title to make it 20 "because its the same trophy for the league they always won"

 

[Lay]

Fabinho is only 29?

Im shocked Ox is still 29.

 

[Klopper76]

Liverpool fans like to blame the lack of squad depth but I think Klopp is symbiotic with that problem. For years he would stick to an almost identical XI every single game, until someone got injured/suspended/needed a game. Just think of the regular Liverpool side for most of the last few seasons - it rolls off the tongue: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mané, Salah, Firmino.

Over time Wijnaldum has been replaced by Thiago, Jota (and recently Diaz) has sometimes come into the front line and Gomez or Konate have played in place of Matip. But at least eight of the XI I just listed were starting pretty much every single game when fit. For years.

What I'm getting at is, Klopp isn't very good at rotating. He tends to prefer to play the same XI every game if he can. So why should the owners splash out on good squad players if their only role is to wait for someone to get injured and then step in? Tsimikas is perfect because he's cheap and won't mind not playing much. Origi was the same. A better backup left back or striker would demand that Klopp actually... you know... rotate his XI.

That's why injuries hit them so hard, because when guys like Van Dijk and are missing from that side they literally have no idea how to cope with it.

Couple of points here.

Firstly, Wijnaldum, Henderson and Fabinho didn’t start that many games together. During the 19-20 season they started less than 20 games. Klopp used several different midfield trios during that season.

Secondly, Klopp rotated very well last season. He averaged 4.5 changes per game and this is why we went so close to winning everything and were able to play so many games. Players like Tsimikas, Minamino, Origi, Chamberlain, Milner, Gomez and Keita made at least 20-30 appearances He’s not been able to rotate as much this season due to injuries (averaging 3 per game this season so far) but he’s shown too much loyalty to players who have a habit of missing big chunks of seasons due to fitness issues.
Both Klopp and FSG should’ve been more ruthless. The fact that we’re still here wondering if we can get a tune out of Keita after four years is proof of that.

The midfield is the engine room of a Klopp side and he’s allowed this one to get older and stocked with unreliable, injury-prone players. You see how little control we have of games now and that we’ve been out sprinted 11 times so far this campaign (more than the previous three seasons combined). The engine room has stalled and he has no other way of getting a midfield to function.

 

[dpansheth]

Agh if I’d known I’d have planned something special like banning @esmufc07 instead of wasting it on Liverpool

With great power comes great responsibility…

 

[erikcred]

They're 13 points behind City and 15 points behind Arsenal (should Arsenal win tomorrow) so probably have no chances for title anymore but writing them off in top 4 race is stupid. They're more than capable of finishing in top 4.

Sure, when the pressure's off they'll probably go on a 10 match winning run like they did in that covid season. But as long as no one above them collapses the way Chelsea and Utd did that year, I think they've left themselves too much to do.

 

[justsomebloke]

Liverpool fans like to blame the lack of squad depth but I think Klopp is symbiotic with that problem. For years he would stick to an almost identical XI every single game, until someone got injured/suspended/needed a game. Just think of the regular Liverpool side for most of the last few seasons - it rolls off the tongue: Alisson, Alexander-Arnold, Van Dijk, Matip, Robertson, Fabinho, Henderson, Wijnaldum, Mané, Salah, Firmino.

Over time Wijnaldum has been replaced by Thiago, Jota (and recently Diaz) has sometimes come into the front line and Gomez or Konate have played in place of Matip. But at least eight of the XI I just listed were starting pretty much every single game when fit. For years.

What I'm getting at is, Klopp isn't very good at rotating. He tends to prefer to play the same XI every game if he can. So why should the owners splash out on good squad players if their only role is to wait for someone to get injured and then step in? Tsimikas is perfect because he's cheap and won't mind not playing much. Origi was the same. A better backup left back or striker would demand that Klopp actually... you know... rotate his XI.

That's why injuries hit them so hard, because when guys like Van Dijk and are missing from that side they literally have no idea how to cope with it.

Yep. You get advantages from prioritising building a top first XI and using it all the time. But then you can't complain when you hit the disadvantages, which are equally real and in the long run also entirely predictable. And with Liverpool, they have made quite a lot of conscious choices that maximise the risk and the downside - how money has been invested, rotational policy and playing an intensity-based style that increases the risk of injuries and long-term wear and tear physically and mentally. Live by adrenalin, die by burnout.

 

[Stevondo8]

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Interesting read.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Bumping this thread because the Gakpo thread is being taken over by more general discussion about Liverpool’s problems.

What’s going on? I keep hearing about their geriatric central midfield but age-wise, they should be very close to their prime.

So what’s the big problem?

Mane leaving?

VVD’s waning powers?

 

[SuperiorXI]

Bumping this thread because the Gakpo thread is being taken over by more general discussion about Liverpool’s problems.

What’s going on? I keep hearing about their geriatric central midfield but age-wise, they should be very close to their prime.

So what’s the big problem?

Mane leaving?

VVD’s waning powers?

They're shit

 

[Pass and Move]

Bumping this thread because the Gakpo thread is being taken over by more general discussion about Liverpool’s problems.

What’s going on? I keep hearing about their geriatric central midfield but age-wise, they should be very close to their prime.

So what’s the big problem?

Mane leaving?

VVD’s waning powers?

Because 'prime' for a midfielder is normally about reading the game, making the right decisions, keeping composure, but in Liverpool's case their midfield was successful due to relentless pressing and suspiciously consistent energy levels which are not so easy to maintain as you age. Even while still on the right side of 30.

 

[Zen86]

Personally I think they were carried by Salah and Mane, the rest of the squad were a strong support act for those two.

One has left and the other is on the wane.

 

[DWelbz19]

I really don’t think it’s anything more than a manager and a group of players collectively finishing a cycle (lolzy) at the top. Klopp’s been there for 7 years! That’s an awful long time in football. He’s won the four major trophies once (COVID PL title; CL against Spursy; and the domestic cups). Good stuff. There’s really not more he can do there.

Both he and the club need a reset away from each other.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Is Firmino not getting enough credit for his role in peak Liverpool? Not the most productive but a pressing monster.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I really don’t think it’s anything more than a manager and a group of players collectively finishing a cycle (lolzy) at the top. Klopp’s been there for 7 years! That’s an awful long time in football. He’s won the four major trophies once (COVID PL title; CL against Spursy; and the domestic cups). Good stuff. There’s really not more he can do there.

Both he and the club need a reset away from each other.

So Dortmund all over again? As suggested in the OP?!

 

[romufc]

Is Firmino not getting enough credit for his role in peak Liverpool? Not the most productive but a pressing monster.

Nope there was a change in Liverpool fans requirements, it shifted from players that will work in the team and system to wanting big name players.

It started with Thiago, replacing WIjnaldum with Thiago, very good player but completely different players.

Bobby was amazing in the front 3 for pressing reasons, winning the ball and also linking play when the team is pressed.

 

[TheReligion]

Bumping this thread because the Gakpo thread is being taken over by more general discussion about Liverpool’s problems.

What’s going on? I keep hearing about their geriatric central midfield but age-wise, they should be very close to their prime.

So what’s the big problem?

Mane leaving?

VVD’s waning powers?

I’m struggling to see how the midfield is ‘close to its prime’ if I’m honest?

As mentioned this can vary from player to player and depending on the role/system.