How should the breakaway clubs be dealt with now?

[gajender]

All the posters who happen to be in favour of heavy punishments have you actually checked or confirmed whether these acts are even punishable legitimately , just because some find it reprehensible doesn't make it illegal unless stated otherwise, I have no intention to do the research because I don't think UEFA or PL have the stomach to go after these Clubs even if they were allowed to do so legally.

 

[Zehner]

All the posters who happen to be in favour of heavy punishments have you actually checked or confirmed whether these acts are even punishable legitimately , just because some find it reprehensible doesn't make it illegal unless stated otherwise, I have no intention to do the research because I don't think UEFA or PL have the stomach to go after these Clubs even if they were allowed to do so legally.

They declared that they are now part of a new competition outside of the FIFA/UEFA framework and communicated that publicly on their websites. Of course that is punishable. They violated regulations that prohibited such behavior and probably speculated that they simply wouldn't be persecuted since the leagues need them.

 

[TheReligion]

All the posters who happen to be in favour of heavy punishments have you actually checked or confirmed whether these acts are even punishable legitimately , just because some find it reprehensible doesn't make it illegal unless stated otherwise, I have no intention to do the research because I don't think UEFA or PL have the stomach to go after these Clubs even if they were allowed to do so legally.

They have no idea but keep rambling on.

Embarrassing.

 

[Enigma_87]

Because she did cheat, and therefore the entire company cheated and profited from that cheating. United didn’t, their owners and board tried to do something.
But she did have voting rights revoked, so you do the same, the new board will decide, with silent owners.

You don’t for example punish an entire company for an individual insider trading.

There you go. United's board (one of the organizers in fact), along with 11 other clubs tried to create a cartel dragging the whole image of the game through the mud. They didn't so - off the hook then?

All the posters who happen to be in favour of heavy punishments have you actually checked or confirmed whether these acts are even punishable legitimately , just because some find it reprehensible doesn't make it illegal unless stated otherwise, I have no intention to do the research because I don't think UEFA or PL have the stomach to go after these Clubs even if they were allowed to do so legally.

To me the matter is moral. Legal or not is another matter. Even if legally they breached any rules(and to me they did) most likely those clubs won't be punished. They will either pay under the table, use their influence, sweep it under the carpet or make a deal with UEFA/FIFA behind closed doors.

Football is fecked though if things continue in the same mould and they evade stern punishment. It sends the message that clubs can do whatever they want, even try to create their own cartel and get away with it if fans don't like it.

It was amateurish (not really surprised) but next time they will be much more prepared.

 

[TheReligion]

They declared that they are now part of a new competition outside of the FIFA/UEFA framework and communicated that publicly on their websites. Of course that is punishable. They violated regulations that prohibited such behavior and probably speculated that they simply wouldn't be persecuted since the leagues need them.

They all communicated it did they? And the actual new league had been formed and everyone had joined it?

Interesting. Must have missed all that.

 

[tjb]

Why would you punish them. Juve and Milan getting punished killed Serie A. You also know that Madrid and Barca will not be punished, so you create an uneven power balance again like it was post-Heisel....again due to a ban/punishment.

The clubs are talking about struggling financially, why would you punish them? Simply put, the FA and UEFA should use this opportunity and hedge their position to ensure this can't be possible in the future, and since these clubs have been disgraced, they will most likely agree to those terms. Punishing them will only prove part of their point, UEFA/FIFA/FA are corrupt governing bodies that have too much power. It's on these bodies to prove they are wrong.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

There you go. United's board (one of the organizers in fact), along with 11 other clubs tried to create a cartel dragging the whole image of the game through the mud. They didn't so - off the hook then?

They didn't because the clubs outrage demanded it. If Liz had planned something but never went through, the company wouldn't have been punished, she would, as with insider trading.

So no, not off the hook, the individuals, as with insider trading should be punished.

 

[iHicksy]

I'm not sure you can punish clubs for something they've never done. They never officially withdrew from anything. They just announced they planned to play in a new Euro Super league in the future with no set date. Which lasted all of two days before withdrawing said intent. I'd say the fallout from fans and distrust sown is more than enough for them to think about pulling anything like this in the future.

 

[Enigma_87]

They didn't because the clubs outrage demanded it.

So no, not off the hook, the individuals, as with insider trading should be punished.

Ok, but once again how do you punish individuals, who are also the owners, without punishing the entire company? In your example the company license was seized and eventually ran it into the ground.

The company and it's employees always suffer in cases like this. Regardless of whether everybody is at fault or opposed to the idea.

Now we all know that they will get off the hook. Like City's transfer ban. Even if they break the law those people are above it. Sooner or later all this pyramid scheme will fall into pieces as there is too much money and credit in place and the whole model is unstable. Yesterday only delayed the inevitable.

 

[Gandalf]

They declared that they are now part of a new competition outside of the FIFA/UEFA framework and communicated that publicly on their websites. Of course that is punishable. They violated regulations that prohibited such behavior and probably speculated that they simply wouldn't be persecuted since the leagues need them.

They declared their intention to start a new competition but it never got off the ground. On a purely technical level this is no different than the friendly tournaments they organize during the summer for overseas markets. The intent is obviously different but UEFA cannot pick and choose which tournaments it decides to get upset about. The ESL has in any event already obtained a court opinion that states they have violated no rules nor broken any laws. The clubs involved will happily go to court if sanctions are applied and those sanctions will be suspended for the duration of any legal action. If you want to know how that will end then just look at the attempts to bring Man City to account for their flagrant abuses of Financial Fair Play. Money will be wasted, lawyers will get richer and nothing will be done.

Instead of punishment the appropriate action at this time is for UEFA to craft new rules and close the loopholes this league sought to exploit and the respective governments of these footballing nations should aim to craft legislation to limit the power and control of owners such as the 50+1 rule or something along those lines.

Finally, all of the big teams, not just the 12, need to close ranks and bring an end to super inflated wages and transfer fees. The current business model is unsustainable because far too much money goes on wages and transfers, this cannot be addressed unless all the teams agree to show restraint and they don't undercut one another. The agents will scream blue murder but feck them.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Ok, but once again how do you punish individuals, who are also the owners, without punishing the entire company?

I've already told you man, you ban them from sitting on the board of a football club.

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

Instead of punishment the appropriate action at this time is for UEFA to craft new rules and close the loopholes this league sought to exploit and the respective governments of these footballing nations should aim to craft legislation to limit the power and control of owners such as the 50+1 rule or something along those lines.

Finally, all of the big teams, not just the 12, need to close ranks and bring an end to super inflated wages and transfer fees. The current business model is unsustainable because far too much money goes on wages and transfers, this cannot be addressed unless all the teams agree to show restraint and they don't undercut one another. The agents will scream blue murder but feck them.

Bingo.

 

[JSArsenal]

They declared their intention to start a new competition but it never got off the ground. On a purely technical level this is no different than the friendly tournaments they organize during the summer for overseas markets. The intent is obviously different but UEFA cannot pick and choose which tournaments it decides to get upset about. The ESL has in any event already obtained a court opinion that states they have violated no rules nor broken any laws. The clubs involved will happily go to court if sanctions are applied and those sanctions will be suspended for the duration of any legal action. If you want to know how that will end then just look at the attempts to bring Man City to account for their flagrant abuses of Financial Fair Play. Money will be wasted, lawyers will get richer and nothing will be done.

Instead of punishment the appropriate action at this time is for UEFA to craft new rules and close the loopholes this league sought to exploit and the respective governments of these footballing nations should aim to craft legislation to limit the power and control of owners such as the 50+1 rule or something along those lines.

Finally, all of the big teams, not just the 12, need to close ranks and bring an end to super inflated wages and transfer fees. The current business model is unsustainable because far too much money goes on wages and transfers, this cannot be addressed unless all the teams agree to show restraint and they don't undercut one another. The agents will scream blue murder but feck them.

I was with you up until your last paragraph. If anyone and I do mean anyone deserves the money in football, it's the players and staff. You do realise if you decrease the wages, the same owners that everyone is annoyed with will just pocket the money and become richer right?

I'm amazed at how anyone can call for lower wages when these clubs make billions off of the back of the players on and off the pitch. Should Billy McBillyson make 200k a week at Celtic? No, the club can't afford that. Do I have a problem with him making that at a club that can afford it? No. The money that a business generates should go to the people who helped to make it first and foremost.

 

[Zehner]

They declared their intention to start a new competition but it never got off the ground. On a purely technical level this is no different than the friendly tournaments they organize during the summer for overseas markets. The intent is obviously different but UEFA cannot pick and choose which tournaments it decides to get upset about. The ESL has in any event already obtained a court opinion that states they have violated no rules nor broken any laws. The clubs involved will happily go to court if sanctions are applied and those sanctions will be suspended for the duration of any legal action. If you want to know how that will end then just look at the attempts to bring Man City to account for their flagrant abuses of Financial Fair Play. Money will be wasted, lawyers will get richer and nothing will be done.

Instead of punishment the appropriate action at this time is for UEFA to craft new rules and close the loopholes this league sought to exploit and the respective governments of these footballing nations should aim to craft legislation to limit the power and control of owners such as the 50+1 rule or something along those lines.

Finally, all of the big teams, not just the 12, need to close ranks and bring an end to super inflated wages and transfer fees. The current business model is unsustainable because far too much money goes on wages and transfers, this cannot be addressed unless all the teams agree to show restraint and they don't undercut one another. The agents will scream blue murder but feck them.

They published plans to hold a tournament consisting of 200+ games and committed themselves to it publicly. They even signed binding documents. This goes far beyond declaring an intention.

Also, I disagree with the suggestions you make on spending and transfer fees. The underlying problem here is that a select few clubs had bitten off more than they could chew. It's a free market in the end, what you're suggesting is a cartel and the money that is saved that way will go straight into the pockets of the corporations. I rather the players getting it.

50 + 1 is a romantic idea but unfortunately nothing more than that. Look at the German league, it has put almost every German club on a leash. If this is implemented, no club will ever have a realistic chance of challenging the elite. Trust me, you don't want Bundesliga conditions in the EPL. We'll be having a decade of the same champion soon.

 

[LuisNaniencia]

All this talk of "next time" as well, as if they'll try it again and call it ESL2 and people will just go for it. It was shut down within 2 days, its done. Fans aren't stupid.

 

[gajender]

They declared that they are now part of a new competition outside of the FIFA/UEFA framework and communicated that publicly on their websites. Of course that is punishable. They violated regulations that prohibited such behavior and probably speculated that they simply wouldn't be persecuted since the leagues need them.

Thanks for that but I am still not able to find the exact clauses where it deems their action illegal anywhere and despite so much negative traction it got in media none of them actually mentioned these clauses either nor UEFA did it either maybe I need to dig deeper.

There you go. United's board (one of the organizers in fact), along with 11 other clubs tried to create a cartel dragging the whole image of the game through the mud. They didn't so - off the hook then?



To me the matter is moral. Legal or not is another matter. Even if legally they breached any rules(and to me they did) most likely those clubs won't be punished. They will either pay under the table, use their influence, sweep it under the carpet or make a deal with UEFA/FIFA behind closed doors.

Football is fecked though if things continue in the same mould and they evade stern punishment. It sends the message that clubs can do whatever they want, even try to create their own cartel and get away with it if fans don't like it.

It was amateurish (not really surprised) but next time they will be much more prepared.

Well it's all good being Morally outraged but unfortunately if PL and UEFA imposes illegitimate punishments they would get their asses handed to them in Courts and rightfully so.

You can't punish somebody on whim but you have a valid point about them pulling the same stunt in future so new safe guards need to be put in place.



Second bolded part is not true atall they can create all the cartel in the world the want but fans would always have the power to make or break them.

 

[Lennon7]

A fine based on what?

Proposing and signing up to a breakaway competition that is in direct breach of their existing contracts with domestic and European leagues.

 

[RedRonaldo]

99% of the people at the clubs didn't do anything wrong or even know about the SL but yeah sure, let's punish everyone

When Serie A teams back in 2005-2006 are in match fixing scandal, 99% of people at the clubs probably didn't do anything wrong too, yet they still get relegated. Thing is, anything wrong done by the management who represent the club on club matters, the club will suffer as a consequence.

 

[Zehner]

Thanks for that but I am still not able to find the exact clauses where it deems their action illegal anywhere and despite so much negative traction it got in media none of them actually mentioned these clauses either nor UEFA did it either maybe I need to dig deeper.




Well it's all good being Morally outraged but unfortunately if PL and UEFA imposes illegitimate punishments they would get their asses handed to them in Courts and rightfully so.

You can't punish somebody on whim but you have a valid point about them pulling the same stunt in future so new safe guards need to be put in place.



Second bolded part is not true atall they can create all the cartel in the world the want but fans would always have the power to make or break them.

It doesn't need to be illegal. It's just what they signed up to. They break the rules, they can get punished in the boundaries of the association.

 

[Giggsyking]

Punished by who? corrupted organisations that themselves need to be punished?

 

[Giggsyking]

When Serie A teams back in 2005-2006 are in match fixing scandal, 99% of people at the clubs probably didn't do anything wrong too, yet they still get relegated. Thing is, anything wrong done by the management who represent the club on club matters, the club will suffer as a consequence.

Nothing illegal has been done, cant compare match fixing to starting a new league.

 

[RedRonaldo]

Nothing illegal has been done, cant compare match fixing to starting a new league.

So you are saying they are merely starting a new league and there's nothing wrong there? Seriously?

 

[Enigma_87]

Well it's all good being Morally outraged but unfortunately if PL and UEFA imposes illegitimate punishments they would get their asses handed to them in Courts and rightfully so.

You can't punish somebody on whim but you have a valid point about them pulling the same stunt in future so new safe guards need to be put in place.

Second bolded part is not true atall they can create all the cartel in the world the want but fans would always have the power to make or break them.

There are legal grounds to punish them. I'm pretty sure they have agreement with UEFA for the CL - a competition they are still in not to create a rival organization.

as for the second bolded - depends on the cartel. The idea was half baked. I'm pretty sure they will come back with another one and even if they get 30-40% of the fanbase on board the commercial revenue would be worth it not to step back.

 

[TheReligion]

They declared their intention to start a new competition but it never got off the ground. On a purely technical level this is no different than the friendly tournaments they organize during the summer for overseas markets. The intent is obviously different but UEFA cannot pick and choose which tournaments it decides to get upset about. The ESL has in any event already obtained a court opinion that states they have violated no rules nor broken any laws. The clubs involved will happily go to court if sanctions are applied and those sanctions will be suspended for the duration of any legal action. If you want to know how that will end then just look at the attempts to bring Man City to account for their flagrant abuses of Financial Fair Play. Money will be wasted, lawyers will get richer and nothing will be done.

Instead of punishment the appropriate action at this time is for UEFA to craft new rules and close the loopholes this league sought to exploit and the respective governments of these footballing nations should aim to craft legislation to limit the power and control of owners such as the 50+1 rule or something along those lines.

Finally, all of the big teams, not just the 12, need to close ranks and bring an end to super inflated wages and transfer fees. The current business model is unsustainable because far too much money goes on wages and transfers, this cannot be addressed unless all the teams agree to show restraint and they don't undercut one another. The agents will scream blue murder but feck them.

Correct. Good post.

It doesn't need to be illegal. It's just what they signed up to. They break the rules, they can get punished in the boundaries of the association.

So it doesn't have to be against the rules to break the rules. Okay.

 

[Gandalf]

I was with you up until your last paragraph. If anyone and I do mean anyone deserves the money in football, it's the players and staff. You do realise if you decrease the wages, the same owners that everyone is annoyed with will just pocket the money and become richer right?

I'm amazed at how anyone can call for lower wages when these clubs make billions off of the back of the players on and off the pitch. Should Billy McBillyson make 200k a week at Celtic? No, the club can't afford that. Do I have a problem with him making that at a club that can afford it? No. The money that a business generates should go to the people who helped to make it first and foremost.

I am not suggesting starvation wages or anything of the sort but the big clubs keep making ludicrous deals, 220m to sign Neymar, 1m a week salary to Ronaldo and the financial pressure this creates is part of the reason for the cash grab of the ESL. They need to show restraint and proper fiscal management. The issue of exploding fees and wages trickles down to all clubs and creates an unsustainable financial model which as we have already seen has forced many historically significant clubs into bankruptcy. The players will still make plenty of money but it is not up to them to volunteer to take less, it is a short career after all, but the clubs have to collectively decide to behave responsibly. You mention the players should get the money if the club can afford it but their current financial records show that actually they can't afford it and are all hundreds of millions in debt. I am not losing sleep over whether Pogba makes 50,000 or 500,000 a week, either salary is more than he needs. I am concerned that fans cannot afford tickets to games and are being constantly exploited to pay for the financial mismanagement of the clubs.

 

[Boavista]

I'm a bit on the fence about this. But I see a lot of people here arguing for no punishment, because the ESL clubs only tried to break the rules but ultimately didn't. That's not what happened though, is it? They didn't just declare their intent to form a breakaway league. They did form a new competition. Didn't they even leave the ECA? It's not necessary to wait until kickoff for it to be legitimate, nor is it even relevant that their league still had fewer members than initially planned.

They signed binding agreements, and that's why you had all those statements last night talking about preparing the paperwork to withdraw etc. So it's not just about intent, it did actually happen, although it fell apart in such a short time frame

 

[Giggsyking]

My response is a result of you being agrro to everyone who has expressed a slightly different opinion to your own.

It's simple children supporting City didn't deserve punishing for their club doing wrong and neither did long time supporters who were fans before the money. People have given other cases too, the reality of it is the clubs take the punishment and it's the fans that suffer.

We were all happy City were facing punishment whether it impacted real fans or not. It's our turn to face punishment for the acts of those who happen to own the club we support.

Hopefully it's all aimed at the directors but if not it's just a long line of incidents of owners screwing fans.

Comparing united fans to city fans, for starters, united fans hate their owners, city fans love their owners. Second how is comparable cheating to start a new league. City did not even get punished for cooking the books but united should suffer because beside 12 other clubs wanted to start a new league. There was nothing illegal and Uefa itself could not say that.

 

[Mickeza]

I'm a bit on the fence about this. But I see a lot of people here arguing for no punishment, because the ESL clubs only tried to break the rules but ultimately didn't. That's not what happened though, is it? They didn't just declare their intent to form a breakaway league. They did form a new competition. Didn't they even leave the ECA? It's not necessary to wait until kickoff for it to be legitimate, nor is it even relevant that their league still had fewer members than initially planned.

They signed binding agreements, and that's why you had all those statements last night talking about preparing the paperwork to withdraw etc. So it's not just about intent, it did actually happen, although it fell apart in such a short time frame

Most want punishment. They want the owners hit where it hurts most - their wallets. Declare them unfit to own a football club - force them out.

 

[Giggsyking]

So you are saying they are merely starting a new league and there's nothing wrong there? Seriously?

I said nothing illegal. I did not say it is not wrong. Cant you see the deference!

 

[TheReligion]

How should the breakaway clubs that didn't actually breakaway be punished for never actually doing anything?

What a fecking question.

 

[Boavista]

How should the breakaway clubs that didn't actually breakaway be punished for never actually doing anything?

What a fecking question.

They did break away though. Leaving the super league and coming back with their tail between their legs, all in the space of 2 days, doesn't change that.

 

[Enigma_87]

How should the breakaway clubs that didn't actually breakaway be punished for never actually doing anything?

What a fecking question.

So what binding agreements did Perez talk about and why did they send paperwork in the middle of the night to pull out of something they "never did"?

 

[TheReligion]

They did break away though. Leaving the super league and coming back with their tail between their legs, all in the space of 2 days, doesn't change that.

So they left the PL and all UEFA competitions? Officially withdrew?

Must have missed that. Link me.

 

[TheReligion]

So what binding agreements did Perez talk about and why did they send paperwork in the middle of the night to pull out of something they "never did"?

Who knows? Certainly not you and the rest of the Caf. Perez was also rambling on about shortening games and playing Fortnight FFS. The man's a complete and utter lunatic.

 

[Hectic]

How should the breakaway clubs that didn't actually breakaway be punished for never actually doing anything?

What a fecking question.

They tried to do something and took serious legitimate steps towards doing it. Only the incredible backlash and universal disgust at their actions led to them backing out against their will.

Just because the coup failed pathetically doesn't change the fact they tried to do it.

If it didn't hurt UEFA and the Premier League financially because of the inherent imbalance these clubs have in both organisations than they would punish them severely.

 

[Boavista]

So they left the PL and all UEFA competitions? Officially withdrew?

Must have missed that. Link me.

That wasn't the question. They formed a breakaway league, which is against UEFA rules. After backlash they left that league again. What more is there to say?

 

[André Dominguez]

The right thing to do would be suspend the clubs from UEFA competitions from next season. Or to be less severe, zero those clubs coefficient so they have to start collecting points from zero.

 

[TheReligion]

That wasn't the question. They formed a breakaway league, which is against UEFA rules. After backlash they left that league again. What more is there to say?

So the league was formed was it? They hadn't even confirmed the full amount of teams taking part!

 

[Enigma_87]

Who knows? Certainly not you and the rest of the Caf. Perez was also rambling on about shortening games and playing Fortnight FFS. The man's a complete and utter lunatic.

So you think something prepared 2 years had no legal grounds? That those 12 clubs didn't sign binding agreements? It's not only intent - they did create binding agreement and they told the whole world about it.

 

[TheReligion]

They tried to do something and took serious legitimate steps towards doing it. Only the incredible backlash and universal disgust at their actions led to them backing out against their will.

Just because the coup failed pathetically doesn't change the fact they tried to do it.

If it didn't hurt UEFA and the Premier League financially because of the inherent imbalance these clubs have in both organisations than they would punish them severely.

I'm not disputing that they were trying to do something but the fact remains that didn't actually do it.

Docking points, banning them from competitions and all this other bollocks whilst comparing It to clubs who have actually done wrong is a nonsense.