How to fix VAR “offsides”?

_00_deathscar

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How does this work in the lower leagues? Or do we only change the offside rule for VAR leagues?
There's no goal line technology in lower/amateur leagues either is there?
 

Boneli

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They just need to do it the same as they have in cricket with umpires call - if it’s within a certain tolerance, it’s not given. Then people can stop arguing about armpits.

And they need to stop showing the refs drawing the lines, because that’s part of what is making the decisions look so random. If we didn’t know it was a human drawing the line, and believed it was a computer doing it automatically, I guarantee we wouldn’t be arguing about it as much.
 

nutmegrush

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I haven’t read the thread so apologies for any repetition.

I see two challenges with the current system, both are in terms of the levels of interpretation happening in Stockley Park.

1) The point at which the ball is played to the accused.

Surely technology can determine this quite simply, chip the ball with sensors and take the need for interpretation away from the officials like with the ball crossing the line.

2) Most obviously and importantly, where a player is deemed to be in an offside position.

I’ve heard a lot about allowing a margin for error. VAR was brought in to avoid this in the first place. I’m not a fan, this allows for taking advantage of the rule, there will inevitably be inconsistency where players are flagged genuinely offside and will expect the margin to be applied as a leeway.

I’ve heard calls for the rules to be changed so that if any part of the player is onside he’s onside. Ridiculous we’ll be seeing players dipping onto through balls, arms back, like an Olympic sprinter. it make defending with offside trap redundant as well, thus making a dynamic of the game weaker. Nobody wants to see that.

What I’m sick of seeing players called offside when they’re for the most part behind the opposition but have a stray arm or leg in an offside position. Why? Because if the majority of the body, or the planted foot for example, is in an onside position the attacker hasn’t gained an unfair advantage. This is the area for improvement for me.

The logical solution for me is to judge offsides by the position of the head (bad luck Fellaini). If we want to go extreme we could eventually take all interpretation away from the officials again and put a circular sensor around the neck of each player via tech inside the shirt.
 

Camilo

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The only thing wrong with the current system is the fact that the "technology" (as we're all so clueless to call it), is a bloke in a van looking at camera images at 1970 World Cup broadcast quality. It's rubbish. I might as well be freeze framing a VHS and making a call. They can't possibly be making accurate offside calls when it's that tight, because the frame rates just aren't high enough. Does the guy kick it in frame A or frame B? That makes a big difference. That can be a significant number of inches of movement in 1/25 of a second. That armpit is offside is it? Well if you go back a frame he'll be entirely onside, and the likelihood is the ball was kicked sometime between the two frames.

They need a lattice network of synchronised ultra high frame rate cameras - 50, 100 or so of them - positioned over the pitch. 300fps. Then you find the one camera with the foot making contact with the ball, then find the appropriate camera looking down at the player in question. Properly designed, the VAR team would know in seconds, and if they couldn't decide in seconds they don't say anything and the onside/offside decision the referee made is kept. Spend the money.

There's nothing wrong with the offside rule itself. Daylight, you just end up debating whether there's daylight. Feet only, you start debating toes. It doesn't fix anything.
 

BigLebowski007

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I just think it should only be applied to "clear and obvious" errors. All other solutions involve milimeters.

Or a high-tech solution with all players having to wear belts with sensor arround their waist/chest. Though I guess the question will then be whether the sensor is on the back or on the chest :D
 

Ekkie Thump

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I’ve heard a lot about allowing a margin for error. VAR was brought in to avoid this in the first place. I’m not a fan, this allows for taking advantage of the rule, there will inevitably be inconsistency where players are flagged genuinely offside and will expect the margin to be applied as a leeway.
I think I disagree with you here. I don't think VAR was brought in to sort out marginal calls as much as to minimise egregious injustices. I reckon something like a 5cm margin of error either side of the offside line would be acceptable to the majority; with the onfield decision standing if the player is within that 10cm band. That would mean that if a player was flagged as off VAR would have to determine he was 5cm on in order to overturn the decision. Alternatively to preserve an attacking advantage you could have it that the margin of error is only applicable in situations where no onfield decision has been made.

Of course there'd still be some injustices, controversial decisions and irritating dicking about, but they'd be fewer in number and tend to respect the decision of the moment.
 
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Jonno

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I would have a birdseye view for a start, I'd have a slimmer line than a line the thickness of a players leg

We've gone from arguing about dodgy ref decisions, to dodgy ref decisions being reviewed by more refs with rubbish technology for 5 mins - at least with a dodgy ref decision, you can celebrate a goal, you can carry on play straight away, none of this awkward reviewing.

I also hate how we only seem to rewind and review all the goals. So in essence, you'll end up with much less goals.
 

shaky

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Just let the VAR officials watch the replays a couple of times at normal speed, and if it isn't clear from that, then the onfield decision stands. None of this freezeframe, pixel hunting nonsense.
 

Mr Parker

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All football players wear heart monitors which also have GPS on them so the coaches can assess their movements after a game. Surely there is a way of looking at live GPS feeds and going by who's GPS is further forward on the monitor. I don't mean a human would judge who is furthest forward the computer would work it out by the GPS position. That way there is no human error and it's all done by technology. Then you just change the offside rule to match it and have all offsides judged from the players chests. And not their armpits, knees or toes.
 

Ikon

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Just let the VAR officials watch the replays a couple of times at normal speed, and if it isn't clear from that, then the onfield decision stands. None of this freeze frame, pixel hunting nonsense.
I'd largely agree with this.
The whole issue of offside has been so hugely over complicated by VAR, with players deemed offside for the slightest body part being in an "offside" position.
This is made further nonsensical when it cannot be guaranteed that VAR has captured the precise moment that the through ball is played forward.
So the freeze frame image showing a players big toe being offside, might actually be captured one hundreth of a second too late, capture the freeze frame image one hundreth of a second sooner, and the attacker is suddenly onside...!

I think that VAR is interpreting offside so badly, I'd even be in favour of considering scrapping offside completely, it cannot be worse than this fiasco.
 

cyberman

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I would have a birdseye view for a start, I'd have a slimmer line than a line the thickness of a players leg

We've gone from arguing about dodgy ref decisions, to dodgy ref decisions being reviewed by more refs with rubbish technology for 5 mins - at least with a dodgy ref decision, you can celebrate a goal, you can carry on play straight away, none of this awkward reviewing.

I also hate how we only seem to rewind and review all the goals. So in essence, you'll end up with much less goals.
Is this true? It seems the trade off with pens etc and wrongfully given offsides being overruled would negate this?
Id love a comparison of last years boxing day table to this but i cant find goals scored in any of them
 

Johan07

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There are two alternatives:
i) you apply VAR and use the existing technology as good as it is right now. If that means that an armpit is offisde, you accept it.
ii) you dont apply VAR at all until its better developed and go back to the old system of human error.
What you dont do is try to figure out some semi-solution that just moves the goalposts and makes the interpretation issues even worse.
And that diverges from UEFA-rules. Such suggestions are idiotic. We already see the issues with the FA adopting a different on-the-field system than UEFA.
 

Foxbatt

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Fellaini with his big hairdo would always be offside in any close decisions. So would anyone with a bit of belly.
Shaw is offside because though his body is behind the last defender his belly was protruding a mm.
This is more than ridiculous.
 

TwoSheds

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But the lines look spot on, the angles of them anyway so its foolish to assume they aren't. Where they draw the line from on the player is a huge issue as I don't know how they determine the middle of the shoulder or armpit exactly etc..., but they can put lines that match the perspective of a football pitch easily. Honestly I think goals like the Wolves and Sheffield United one today should stand purely because of the possible inaccuracies but the offside rule needs changing anyway, particularly if they are going to implement it the way they currently are with VAR.
I'm an engineer mate, nothing is ever spot on, I can guarantee you there are many millimetres of error in those lines, and on top of that you add in the frame error like you said before, I'd be surprised if the system works to within +/- 50mm. But until they can put a number on it, and put a number on the "offsideness" of it too, it's all absolute bollocks and seems to be mainly being used in favour of the bigger clubs at the moment. I think the implementation of it is fantastically incompetent and quite possibly criminal, I don't believe it's being done honestly frankly.
 

The White Pele

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For me you have to remove this principle of offside being a matter of fact rather than judgment.

Then it becomes a lot more simple in my opinion. Rather than trying to draw lines based on the defenders and attackers forward-most body part, have straight lines at intervals of say 50cm imposed on to the video for the video assistant referee to use as a guide and then let them make the decision with the naked eye. If it's really close then it's onside or on-field decision.
 

Zlatan 7

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I'm an engineer mate, nothing is ever spot on, I can guarantee you there are many millimetres of error in those lines, and on top of that you add in the frame error like you said before, I'd be surprised if the system works to within +/- 50mm. But until they can put a number on it, and put a number on the "offsideness" of it too, it's all absolute bollocks and seems to be mainly being used in favour of the bigger clubs at the moment. I think the implementation of it is fantastically incompetent and quite possibly criminal, I don't believe it's being done honestly frankly.
Fully agree, I wish more people would read this, especially those who keep repeating offside is offside whether a mm or not.

That may be the case but we can’t measure that accurately enough, so actually offside may not be offside at all. It’s not a clear cut decision, it’s being guessed.
 

The White Pele

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I'm an engineer mate, nothing is ever spot on, I can guarantee you there are many millimetres of error in those lines, and on top of that you add in the frame error like you said before, I'd be surprised if the system works to within +/- 50mm. But until they can put a number on it, and put a number on the "offsideness" of it too, it's all absolute bollocks and seems to be mainly being used in favour of the bigger clubs at the moment. I think the implementation of it is fantastically incompetent and quite possibly criminal, I don't believe it's being done honestly frankly.
Agree with this completely. Trying to engineer an exact science to the offside rule is a falsehood. There are multiple elements which create a margin for error:

  1. Determining the exact moment the ball is played
  2. Having a frame available that captures the exact moment the ball is played
  3. Determining an attacking and defending players forward-most body part based on that frame
  4. Determining the height of those body parts and drawing a perfectly perpendicular line down to the ground from that point
  5. Drawing two lines on the pitch that are perfectly parallel to the goal line for comparison
Common sense approach needed
 

Rob

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All I know is that they need to do something. In our game yesterday, Wolves had a goal disallowed because of what apparently was some body part that was a fraction offside. And it took them about a minute to come to that conclusion. I get why people think VAR is necessary, but I can’t stand the way it’s being used. I’m not sure how to do it without them having to be really petulant about it but as it is, with goals being disallowed because of offsides that can hardly be seen even with all the lines, and because of some minor free kick 50 yards away 10 passes before the goal is horrendous, imo. And before long, people will stop celebrating goals until they see that there’s no VAR sign.
 

Green_Red

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Half the problem is still the goons that are in charge of it. Between the referee and the VAR operators they are still trying to exert their own influence and subjectivity based on the context of the match and the season rather than be entirely objective and call it as they see it.
Youre 100% right there. You can see even some of the decisions in some games are given by VAG and in others they arent. The whole thing is a shambles.
 

padr81

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I'm an engineer mate, nothing is ever spot on, I can guarantee you there are many millimetres of error in those lines, and on top of that you add in the frame error like you said before, I'd be surprised if the system works to within +/- 50mm. But until they can put a number on it, and put a number on the "offsideness" of it too, it's all absolute bollocks and seems to be mainly being used in favour of the bigger clubs at the moment. I think the implementation of it is fantastically incompetent and quite possibly criminal, I don't believe it's being done honestly frankly.
Fair enough dude, Im happy to take a more educated opinion. I still see positives in the technology just atm not in offsides.
 

Dancfc

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Two things need to change.

1. Only give offside if you're able to draw a clear line between forward and last defender. Offside was created to prevent goal hanging, chalking goals off because the attacker has a hard on that snuck Infront of the last defender is too much. Anything that's inconclusive, ie takes forever to work it out then give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker and be done with it.

2. Flag potential VAR checks straight away and make it clear that there's a chance it could be called off, allowing players to celebrate only for the rug to be pulled from under their feet is cruel and it shouldn't be happening.
 

Gringo

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Don't use VAR for offside calls. Get in 2 extra linesman. Both have to flag for it to count as offside.
 

ArmandTamzarian

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They just need to introduce a margain of error on the defenders line of, say 1 yard for example, if the attacking players line is beyond the defenders line then there is a clear and obvious error that can be corrected.
 

DickDastardly

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Just let the VAR officials watch the replays a couple of times at normal speed, and if it isn't clear from that, then the onfield decision stands. None of this freezeframe, pixel hunting nonsense.
And if their eyesight is not 20/20, we get what excatly?

We have the technology, we just have to have clear rules.

Draw the line at their feet.

Implement special cameras for offside decisions on all PL stadiums, how much can that cost, there is 20 stadiums, that's what, 1000 HD cameras, that's Sterling's week paycheck.

And there has to be a tech fast enough to process the HD images in seconds and make the fair call in 10 seconds max.
 

Zlatan 7

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And if their eyesight is not 20/20, we get what excatly?

We have the technology, we just have to have clear rules.

Draw the line at their feet.

Implement special cameras for offside decisions on all PL stadiums, how much can that cost, there is 20 stadiums, that's what, 1000 HD cameras, that's Sterling's week paycheck.

And there has to be a tech fast enough to process the HD images in seconds and make the fair call in 10 seconds max.
So you want to change the rules to accommodate VAR.

What about the rules in lower leagues and grass roots. Would the linos now have to watch the players feet? Or is it just a rule change in the premier league?
 

DickDastardly

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So you want to change the rules to accommodate VAR.

What about the rules in lower leagues and grass roots. Would the linos now have to watch the players feet? Or is it just a rule change in the premier league?
Actually yes. It's football. Feet.

I don't get why would it matter if your arm was in offside position, like yesterday's decision. It's football we're watching right?

You can't score with your arms.

It would make it easier on the cameras and technology. Measure the feet. End of. Faster.

In two years i excpect the Lower leagues to have the same tech, so, yeah.
 

Zlatan 7

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Actually yes. It's football. Feet.

I don't get why would it matter if your arm was in offside position, like yesterday's decision. It's football we're watching right?

You can't score with your arms.

It would make it easier on the cameras and technology. Measure the feet. End of. Faster.

In two years i excpect the Lower leagues to have the same tech, so, yeah.
:lol:
 

redshaw

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Should be possible to create a virtual rendition like they do with the goal line and hawk eye in tennis. Still the issue is when is the ball played, we don't have high enough frame rate to make the call and even then it could be hard to call a hard kick to a little flick forwards.

The Zaha ruling was very poor, the frame they used had the ball way off the passing foot. Zaha is onside if they had a frame that is more like they use, that's the issue with low frame rate video. You can toggle back and forth one frame and the camera missed the moment you want sometimes.

At least with a virtual creation we can stop with the poor angles. These can be very misleading. You saw a good example of that with Spurs and Chelsea in the trial. You need a side on at least with video, acute video angles should not be used.
 
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giorno

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Is this true? It seems the trade off with pens etc and wrongfully given offsides being overruled would negate this?
Id love a comparison of last years boxing day table to this but i cant find goals scored in any of them
Marginally. This season 559 goals have been scored through 199 games. Last season it was 569 through 200

Per game that's 2.8 vs 2.84

One notable thing is by this time last season Burnley of all teams had given up 41 goals
 
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cyberman

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Marginally. This season 559 goals have been scored through 199 games. Last season it was 569 through 200

Per game that's 2.8 vs 2.84
And thats including Spurs, Arsenal and Citys freefall which would hurt those stats.
Its a wash i suppose. Which is on the side of VAR imo.
 

cyberman

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Should be possible to create a virtual rendition like they do with the goal line and hawk eye in tennis. Still the issue is when is the ball played, we don't have high enough frame rate to make the call and even then it could be hard to call a hard kick to a little flick forwards.

The Zaha ruling was very poor, the frame they used had the ball way off the passing foot. Zaha is onside if they had a frame that is more like they use, that's the issue with low frame rate video. You can toggle back and forth one frame and the camera missed the moment you want sometimes.

At least with a virtual creation we can stop with the poor angles. These can be very misleading. You saw a good example of that with Spurs and Chelsea in the trial. You need a side on at least with video, acute video angles should not be used.
We cant see the frames they use though. Plus we arent seeing everything theyre seeing.
And they do use 3d rendering?
 

giorno

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Agree with this completely. Trying to engineer an exact science to the offside rule is a falsehood. There are multiple elements which create a margin for error:

  1. Determining the exact moment the ball is played
  2. Having a frame available that captures the exact moment the ball is played
  3. Determining an attacking and defending players forward-most body part based on that frame
  4. Determining the height of those body parts and drawing a perfectly perpendicular line down to the ground from that point
  5. Drawing two lines on the pitch that are perfectly parallel to the goal line for comparison
Common sense approach needed
2. Relevant
3. They determine the furthest body part by using 3 different camera angles and then creating a 3D model off that. This is already accurate
4. They draw nothing. The software does. They simply click on the point of reference(furthest body part) and the software does the rest. Only potential issue here might be margin for error on the point of reference, which is still done by a human hand pointing the mouse and cilcking on it
5. Again, software does that, this part is accurate
 

redshaw

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We cant see the frames they use though. Plus we arent seeing everything theyre seeing.
And they do use 3d rendering?
Is there a reason they can show this very quickly for a goal line or for years in a tennis match but it's never shown in VAR?

Are you saying they have a 3D rendering of the players position and high frames rates but then choose not to show ever, not even after the game?

I'd love to see the 3D render of, what was it the Spurs game. Even after the game would be fine than having a 45 degree video angle.
 
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VBI

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Any setup that disallows goals like Pukki's against Spurs is clearly not working correctly, and isn't doing anything to actually benefit the sport. I also don't get how "armpits" can be counted, since the shoulder comes down over the armpit and the actual arm "pit" is mostly part of the chest/ribs. Desperately searching molecules to find a way to discount a goal just seems wrong. As said, most people just want obvious errors fixed, i.e if someone was a foot off and the linesman missed it, then fix that. Not actively searching to see if someone's shirt billowed out at exactly the wrong time, or someone just happens to have a bigger cock than the defender and is off by the measure of one full bellend.
 

matherto

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Have people accept that offside is offside even if it's a fraction of an inch?
 

alexthelion

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Sourness reckons if any part of your body is ONSIDE, it should count
It's the rule they use in Ice Hockey, it makes more sense to me rather than a toe being a mm offside as it currently is in football.
 

Johan07

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Any setup that disallows goals like Pukki's against Spurs is clearly not working correctly, and isn't doing anything to actually benefit the sport. I also don't get how "armpits" can be counted, since the shoulder comes down over the armpit and the actual arm "pit" is mostly part of the chest/ribs. Desperately searching molecules to find a way to discount a goal just seems wrong. As said, most people just want obvious errors fixed, i.e if someone was a foot off and the linesman missed it, then fix that. Not actively searching to see if someone's shirt billowed out at exactly the wrong time, or someone just happens to have a bigger cock than the defender and is off by the measure of one full bellend.
So where would you draw the line? Because it has to be somewhere. I get why they chose the first armpit, because you cant score with the leading arm so it makes sense. You can score with the chest, that would be legal.
There has to be a line and it needs to be enforced. Or you dont use VAR at all, there is no "the inbetween" here.