The first thing we should focus on is not playing Daniel James against a low block. Nothing aagainst the player as he has been very good this season in his role but we need to move past starting him. Our front 3 should be rashford, martial and greenwood till the end. Greenwood has bulked up a bit this past few months and is ready to start.
How to get better at breaking down deep sides
- Thread starter Crashoutcassius
- Start date
Agree on this. Dan James is good if we are playing on the counter and he has space to run into. When we have to break teams down, he lacks creativity as his only option is to whip the ball into the box.
He needs to improve on some sort of guile.
So many posters on here come up with a boring 'get new coach/manager' comment, which realistically is not helpful, also get a top class striker/ right wing, which is all very good, but doesn't help in the near future. Ole will still be here next season, and this team/ squad will develop further, how successful it will be remains to be seen. Teams take time to develop, (SAF took over three years) and players will eventually create an understanding with other players within that team, but at the moment most of the current team has played together for less than a season, and Bruno and Martial seemed to have formed a little bit of an understanding, as has Rashford and Martial to a certain extent, as for creating a 'system' to play, and think a good coach creates a framework and an environment for your skilled players to excel in. I agree with some comments on here, like James (who really is still learning his trade) is much better in a counter attacking team, but he will still have to have minutes against deep sitting teams so he can learn. Against certain deep lying teams, both Fred and McTominay are not required, and Matic can be a option, but against quick counter attacking teams he may be a little too slow. It will be interesting to see how Bruno and Pogba can dovetail together over the next few matches, and if they do I think we could have a very successful end to the season.
To be fair, I think I posted this before we signed Bruno.
But yeah, I like James in general he's just not very useful if a team is going to sit deep. Like you said, Greenwood is probably a much better option for now.
You would think having Pogba, Bruno and Greenwood in the team should improve this aspect of our play quite a bit.
i will like martial to be playing from LW. He can create from there better than that striking position
I don't think saying to get a new coach is boring. Realistically, nothing is going to change at all, if we don't recruit a top attacking coach. That is just a fact.
We needed Queiroz to join us, for us to advance as a team and improve the results in Europe that SAF wanted. Who was behind the tactical changes from rigid 442 to fluid 433 and improved success in Europe we later saw? Queiroz. If he didn't join back then, and SAF stuck to his same methods, there's no chance that things would have miraculously improved on their own. Yet that's what people expect to happen with Ole? Get real.
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It’s the same thing it’s always been since long before LVG was even in charge. Move the ball faster.
I think there was a game I watched of cities last year and the speed and intensity that they moved the ball about was incredible. They didn’t just play a pass for the sake of playing it cause it looked like they’d ran out of ideas. It was all one touch and fired in to each other and you could honestly hear the rhythm they were playing at. It was like a beat going everytime the ball was passed.
We never do anything like that and at times over the years I can’t decide if we are supposed to be a counterattacking team or possesion Based. We just seem so slow to be doing anything.
LVG after almost every match said we need more tempo and intensity and he never got it from the team and neither did Jose and Ole hasn’t gotten it yet. There were signs before the break it was coming but to me this is the main draw back with our team.
We allow the opposition to settle.
I think there was a game I watched of cities last year and the speed and intensity that they moved the ball about was incredible. They didn’t just play a pass for the sake of playing it cause it looked like they’d ran out of ideas. It was all one touch and fired in to each other and you could honestly hear the rhythm they were playing at. It was like a beat going everytime the ball was passed.
We never do anything like that and at times over the years I can’t decide if we are supposed to be a counterattacking team or possesion Based. We just seem so slow to be doing anything.
LVG after almost every match said we need more tempo and intensity and he never got it from the team and neither did Jose and Ole hasn’t gotten it yet. There were signs before the break it was coming but to me this is the main draw back with our team.
We allow the opposition to settle.
Yes, boring in the fact that that one statement seems to suggest that just replacing Ole will solve all our problems, which it patently won't, there are still players that need to be shifted out, and new blood brought in before we get a squad ready to challenge.
You say that Ole is not an attacking coach, well we seem to be a lot better at attacking than with our three previous managers. Coaches/managers also develop, and with Ole being at pretty much the start of his career, I expect him to develop as a very good coach/manager, time will tell whether he will become a successful manager.
Do you think we need someone to replace Ole, or get someone alongside him to help him?
This is the key i agree. Whatever we do, we need to be doing it with intensity and purpose. I believe it comes from constant drilling on the training pitch every day. We all know how meticulous and hard working Guardiola is on the training pitch, his sessions full of intensity. If you train like it, you're going to play like it too, it's no coincidence is it?
Our coaches mustn't be good enough and the result is that our players aren't stimulated enough. That's my impression over the years anyway.
Get someone in alongside to help him. Like how SAF bought in coaches to help him advance. The OP question is how to get better breaking down deep teams, well we've had this problem for years and i don't see how we're going to suddenly start breaking down sides properly without outside help. Ole isn't a LVG who will drill the team every day working on patterns, possession and build up. So it's only natural he needs help if we are to advance properly no?
I think you misunderstand me, i'm not advocating for Ole to be replaced. I want him to recruit an attacking coach alongside him. He has problems getting the team to build up properly, that is obvious to see every match you watch of us. If we are to overcome our weaknesses of breaking down deep sides, i don't see how anything is going to change otherwise.
Yes we simply have not had a good coach since Ferguson left. People like to bring up LVG and Mourinho and how they were good coaches but you only have to check how these managers are doing after they left us to see that we got them at the wrong time - like the Sanchez and Falcao of managers.
The team needs drilling. You look at Liverpool and City and you can see their playstyle is as a result of drilling patterns and constant practice and repetition of those patterns
A player who can break into the box from a midfield run, go past his own front men either taking the ball with him or getting on the end of a pin-point pass is the best way to break down deep sides.
Bryan Robson, fantastic, Paul Ince could do it as well, Paul Scholes, etc. either way its now a must be Pogba/Fernandes strategy, either player makes the run, or provides the pass and they are both more than capable of either role. This will be the page in United's playbook that will put the fear of God into the opposition, because they won't know which way it will work....oooh I can feel the goosebumps now just thinking about it!
Bryan Robson, fantastic, Paul Ince could do it as well, Paul Scholes, etc. either way its now a must be Pogba/Fernandes strategy, either player makes the run, or provides the pass and they are both more than capable of either role. This will be the page in United's playbook that will put the fear of God into the opposition, because they won't know which way it will work....oooh I can feel the goosebumps now just thinking about it!
Pass the ball forward, quicker.
Run into space, rather than standing side by side with the opposition.
Think that would be a start
Run into space, rather than standing side by side with the opposition.
Think that would be a start
This. It seems so obvious, especially because Greenwood tends to go inside on his left, which leaves space for the right-back. Watching James and AWB both attacking down the right vs. Spurs was so awkward because they both want to occupy the same space.
Not sure what is holding back Ole from starting Greenwood over James. Should not really be a question of maturity or experience - Greenwood is miles ahead in terms of decision making.
Also, we need to just play a single holding midfielder against lesser sides from now on, so we can have both Bruno and Pogba on the pitch.
The Sanchez & Falcao of managers is a pretty accurate description actually. Ole must be the McTominay of managers if i had to guess.
Whenever i've watched City & even Liverpool now, i get jealous in how they ping the ball about with such intensity and everyone is on the same wavelength. Then i watch us, see everyone standing still taking an age on the ball, and i wonder what the hell we are even doing in training most of the time. It's just not fair is it?
Don't watch Bayern if you don't want to get upset
To open up spaces you need either pass and move to work with some crisp and to the point passing or you need players from midfield to be capable of beating a man to open up spaces with players bursting out to cover the space left by the beaten man. Sadly we have neither. It changed when Pogba came on because he could take on a man and have other players scrambling to close the space. I felt that Solskjær reacted to late and having both Fred and McT so long was a waste. But having no right wing was crucial as one sided attack is easy to close down.
Don’t make stupid mistakes to go 1-0 down and be chasing the game the entire way.
To break down deep defensive sides you need a great defence yourself. It’s a risky tactic but if you give them a bit of the ball you can invite them onto you. But you need to be confident in your defence to win the ball back and quickly get the ball forward now that they’re a bit stretched. Otherwise it’s just pound them until they cave in. Which sometimes never happens and sometimes they run up the other end and score. How many times have we seen that happen against United?
Do you have anyone in mind?
You could have a point, and getting someone in may be the answer, but I think Ole will develop into a very good coach/manager, but some posters want everything yesterday, they have no patience. You made a good point, other posters just come up with a bland statement which does no good at all. We all want our club to be successful, but there is no magic wand, and building a team/squad will take time, and I think next season there should be a better understanding between players which hopefully will create a watertight defence and a goal laden attack.
I honestly think signing an attacker on the right that can help us focus less on building up centrally or on the left side would help us open up opponents a lot. However, I still feel that we play to our weaknesses too much at times. We are stylistically not a great passing team. Neither of our full backs nor our attackers are great passers of the ball. I feel we should be bombarding teams more with longer balls, mixing it up rather than trying to pass intricately and break defensive lines. City have the players for that, we do not. What we do have as evidenced by the big games we win when counter attacking is pace, tenacity and good dribbling ability. We have good passers, but not enough to make us a team that plays as narrow as we do, and that comes as a result of trying to be too intricate. The addition of Pogba and Bruno through the middle will create more spaces as both are generally good at attacking spaces and moving off the ball which will also help us break teams down. Even if Martial is not great at holding up the ball, we need to attempt to consistently attack the space behind the defence. Even if it leads to the opposition defence easily clearing our chances, it will allow us to sustain aggressive possession in the opposition half rather than waiting patiently for the right pass.
Instructional video here with Spain manager Robert Moreno (now Monaco manager), talking about how he coached his side to utilise space, width, quick switches of play and positional rotation, to break down the structure of a low block team in a specific game. Interesting and detailed:
There are actually quite a few interesting videos in the Coaches' Voice series, with Mourinho, Xabi Alonso, Simeone, Nuno Espirito Santo, Quique Setien etc:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCuR-ZdVJtF3muYhYUQ-he-Q/videos?view=0&sort=p&flow=grid
I believe we have a few players like this, we just need the right hand side to open up the game for them. Its too tight in the centre at times. I believe even Rashford is good at the final ball if he has the time and space to deliver it. At the moment, our spacing in game is too cramped. It's kind of like the modern nba. Good shooting ( which creates width), allows space for isolation plays and effective swing passes. Aside from that, you can be patient and pass intricately during each play to find the right shot, but if its too slow or the right players aren't available, it becomes difficult to get a good shot. It takes a lot of consistently good passes to open up teams using this method and requires consistently good and confident passers to make it work, so it is very difficult to consistently produce those passes unless you are Barcelona or Man City where you have Debruyne Silva Messi etc. The third option is to have a really good striker who can hold up play and create for himself and others and/or an attacking midfielder that can do the same thing. This is the approach Van Gaal wanted to use as a secondary option but didnt have the talent available to him to make it work consistently. Fergie also used to use this with Cole/Yorke Hughes/Cantona. In Basketball, it would be the equivalent to posting up a great Center or even a great perimeter player like Lebron Kobe or Durant.
There are many ways to do it and the key is putting players into the box, movement, being patience & need quality. Not about providing width alone. That's why I told you half disagree.
To me that goal is a wrong & bad example. If you look at the goal, there are literary 5 players ball watching before Foden made the pass and Silva wasn't even making any movement to shake the defense. Even if you play against a team without manager, if 5 of your players on the pitch are ball watching, that's already schoolboy errors. Follow your men, basic.
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I don't think we can complain now that we don't pass the ball quick enough. Most of the work that we do in the final third is one-two touch, unless it goes out to AWB or Dan James. A lot of our passes are also zipped around. This is the one big improvement in our attack under Ole which was sorely missing during the LVG and Jose days. We don't have the quality yet to make it count and make the killer passes. I think Bruno and Pogba playing together will improve this, but we need better output at RW.
And, although this is a controversial opinion - I think Rashford needs to improve his decision making out wide as well. He can be lethal on his day, but there are a number of times he loses the ball and isn't able to produce the required end product. I think he is improving, and we will see an even better version of Rashford in the next 12-16 months. In the absence of 'creativity' in the front 3 - we end up having to generate this from the midfield. Let's see how the rest of this mini season develops, but we should fix this over the summer. This deficiency becomes very obvious when Mata plays in the front 3 (against lesser teams because of his lack of pace now) and is able to combine with Bruno to create some good chances.
I don't think it is tactical coaching which is lacking now, but the coaching required to get our players to take the right kind of risks in the right position. There are so many times when Martial + Rashford try to beat a player when they should pass, or pass the ball when they should just run with it.
With Greenwood and Fernandes, we have players who are willing to overload the box when crosses or cutbacks come in. That was a 4v4 in the danger area which is pretty good.
Very useful for these kinds of games, instead of the usual 1v4 or 1v5 we see.
Our third goal had patience moving it around, then all of a sudden it quickened up. It was a quick pass from Pogba to Fernandes, and the flick by him to Martial just basically shifted the whole defence and drew them all over the place.
Having a player or two who can beat a man really helps as it can free up a man. I think on the goal we had almost 30 passes from the moment DDG took the goal kick, to the goal.
Having a player or two who can beat a man really helps as it can free up a man. I think on the goal we had almost 30 passes from the moment DDG took the goal kick, to the goal.
We have a few players who move the ball quickly and play one touch passes such as Fernandes, Pogba but we're hesitant at time to play it to the runners. We have a bad habit of letting the defence get back into position and waiting for Rashford to dribble past them.
I think upgrading on Luke Shaw will help but I don't think this is a problem we should just throw money at.
I think upgrading on Luke Shaw will help but I don't think this is a problem we should just throw money at.
Ive only seen since half time but id argue Luke shaw has been our best player.
He's getting into dangerous positions, overlapping runs, good balls into the box, even for the goal
Getting a manager that knows how to do it would be a good start.
We don’t have anyone that is a good crosser of the ball. That’s how you beat teams camped in their box.
By taking a shot which we never do
Plenty. Pogba, Bruno, Dalot, Rashford but our tactics are all wrong by not getting those players into positions quick enough and telling them to cross first time.
This. No one likes to shoot for some reason, we either pass wide or try and dribble closer to the goal despite already being in the box. It's baffling
Replacing Ole with a proper manager would do
Coaching will do the trick
Pretty weird how we struggled today to score against 10 players while having Pogba, Bruno, Greenwood, Rashford, Martial and Ighalo all on pitch at the same time, and at the end of the day the goal came from our defender. 
replacing glory hunting fans with proper fans would be far more welcome.
I think the full back position is an issue, shaw and bissaka are not awful in anyway and are very good defensively but dont think they will be enough to take us to the level of winning big trophies.