How to get better at breaking down deep sides

RedWat

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We need another creative midfielder in addition to Pogba. If Pogba goes we need two.

We also need to replace Luke Shaw for a top class fullback. We have two defensive minded fullbacks. It's not working. Need another attacking threat in the team. Somebody like Digne, Gaya or Grimaldo would be good.

Liverpool have two of the best attacking fullbacks in the world. It makes them very difficult to play against.
It is all on the system, not necessarily copying a team like Liverpool. It is not only a case that Liverpool have attacking full backs, it is a case that their fullbacks are their main creative attacking outlet plus Firmino, and then Salah/Mane chips in with assists as well as goals. Man City's system is different where their creativity comes from KDB in midfield and the wide men in Sterling, Marhrez, B Silva & Sane(when fit). They are also not reliant on just one player providing the creativity and assists they have at least 3-4 players who are capable who can provide that bit of "Magic" when needed,

Our problem is that we have only 1 creative player in Pogba you saw how the game changed creativity wise when he came on.

Watford gave Liverpool a good game, possibly played better against them than they did against us. But lost 2-0 Liverpool have match winners with guile and experience to keep playing against stubborn teams until the breakthrough takes place, as they know they have the players to do it, they don't get easily frustrated when things don't go their way, experience has taught them that.They keep to the system

Our Match winners are mainly kids (most under 23) who when things are going well against top teams they thrive on the adrenaline i.e against Spurs & City. But when some "who do they think they are" smaller team is up against them who shows a high level of stubborn intensity, they get easily frustrated players like Rashford is one that can get easily frustrated when things don't go his way. With no viable effective system of play to keep to they try to do their own thing which sometimes may work to an extent (against Sheff Utd when they were 2-0 down) but usually fails.


I started this saying it is all about the system..but looking now it is the system plus players mentality and if they trust the system or not.
 
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sunama

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Yep better players required. How we have gotten to a state where the team is littered with very average players I’m not sure.
Our standards have gradually dropped. The fans, the players, the manager etc. The standards which are demmed acceptable have dropped, so being average or below average is acceptable.
No EPL or Championship team would have Ole as manager. But we'll take him.
No EPL team would have Lingard in such a pivotal attacking role....but we'll use him.
Fans are also quite accepting of our mid table status, clasing this as "progress". 2 years ago we were in 2nd place, but apparently mid table is a positive move forward. Work that one out.

People getting excited about McT and Fred in midfield? to me they are average standard premier league players, not bad players but not the quality Man United should have - they should be the back up players on the bench to players of scholes Carrick Keane Beckham standard.
Agreed on all points.

The first thing we need to do is get rid of Woodward (unlikely to happen).
Get a DoF in (unlikely to happen).
He should then come in and find a replacement for Ole (who is clearly out of his depth). This replacement will need to be a big name, in order to attract the calibre of player we are after. Very few player would be willing to join us, while Ole is in charge, unless we pay big money.
The entire coaching staff needs replacing, asap. This can be done within the first month. Carrick and McKenna have known nothing but failure since they joined the coaching staff, so need to be sent packing. Not good enough. Absolute failures, the pair of them.
He should also take a long look at our scouts, who have proven themselves to be completely useless over the last few years. The one (cheap) gem we have found in Dan James, was unearthed by Ryan Giggs, not our scouts.
While all this is going on, he can then (together with the new manager), look to find some top class players, who are willing to believe in our project.

The new manager and DoF, will need to be ruthless and be given full reign to rip the coaching team and playing team apart, as they see fit. The current mid-table team who lost to the worst team in the league yesterday, unable to score single goal against them, must get what they deserve. And if some of the players are told that they will never play for MUFC again, they'll probably understand why. Pep Guardiola did this when he first joined MCFC. Pep set the standards high and that's what our new manager needs to do.
 

KeanoMagicHat

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Pogba instead of Lingard or Pereira would help massively. Was funny when some people were saying that Pogba wouldn't get back in the United team. He's miles ahead of the other midfielders. Also need more from the full-backs. If you look at Liverpool, TAA and Robertson are consistently making important passes/crosses against teams sitting back and getting Liverpool out of jail. United never get that from their full-backs.
 

AshRK

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We need to start taking chances for starter. Liverpool did not create many chances against Watford and neither they have been creating chance after chance like some like to believe, but what they do effectively is take their chances and finish them. Lingard should have scored against Everton in the first minute and so should he have yesterday.

I also think this team lacks a strong mentality. One goal down their head starts dropping, they look clueless just like the manager. The killer mentality is needed. Just because you beat city doesn't mean you are a great side. It is against these smaller side you have to stand up and grind results. We have lacked that for a long time now.
 

Foxbatt

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United will not beat teams that doesn't give us space because the coach has no idea at all. Our basics are all wrong from the start
 

Sparky Rhiwabon

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Ole said he was happy with the squad so it can't be the players that is the problem - must be the coaching...
 

Van Piorsing

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When you fail at signing Griezmann and Eriksen plus many others and you're left with Mata at the end of career and Lingard, don't get your hopes up too much of breaking any defense whatsoever.

The idea of complex and at the same time aggressive manager is one, but if you can't provide high shelf players for a huge football club like United, every manager will fail for sure and another one is failing at the moment.

Right now we can't even fully complete the clear out, so rebuild of squad looks in the early stages. The club as a whole is simply too slow with addressing issues.
 

EvilChuck

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I remember watching a thing with Thierry Henry years ago about his time at Barca, and how Pep set them up to attack against teams playing deep (aka anyone who played against Pep's Barca side), and how Pep gave Henry a bollocking for deviating from the attacking patterns.

When I watch us, against the deep sides I see a lot of the issues I recall Henry mentioning. The wide players all tuck in narrow, instead of literally hugging the line and pulling the defensive side into wider positions, to create spaces between the cb and fb for midfield runners to use, or give a creative type more space as an oppo cm would tuck into the defence to plug the gaps that a runner would use.

Currently we get to the attacking third, and it feels like we play within the width of the 18 yard box (we may play on one wing, but the team on the other side comes narrow still). Its not necessarily we need new players, we just need more width and to stay wide and force gaps to appear
 

Maccataq

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The sad thing about yesterday was that Watford didn't even defend that well! There was so much space to exploit I couldn't believe we couldn't score one but our passing was so sloppy time after time. We looked much improved when Pogba came on and we could have 2-3 in the last 10-15 mins based on the chances we had.

Lingard's miss was indefensible, why he opted to chip the keeper I'll never know. That's the shot you try when you're 3-4 up and/or you are a top player. Clinical strikers slide that past the keeper.

We basically gave them 2 goals yesterday but aside from doing that, we draw 0-0 and it's still far from good enough.
 

NewGlory

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Pogba instead of Lingard or Pereira would help massively. Was funny when some people were saying that Pogba wouldn't get back in the United team. He's miles ahead of the other midfielders. Also need more from the full-backs. If you look at Liverpool, TAA and Robertson are consistently making important passes/crosses against teams sitting back and getting Liverpool out of jail. United never get that from their full-backs.
You lose all credibility when you suggest that Pereira should start in front of Fred or even McT, despite McT's horrible performance yesterday. Is Pereira your third cousin or something? Why would anybody want that loser to start

Currently we get to the attacking third, and it feels like we play within the width of the 18 yard box (we may play on one wing, but the team on the other side comes narrow still). Its not necessarily we need new players, we just need more width and to stay wide and force gaps to appear
Our players suck at positional play and understanding of the spaces. They kick the ball around like teenagers playing in a school playground. It's embarrassing at any pro level, let alone if you want to be successful in EPL
 
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TheRedDevil'sAdvocate

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I remember watching a thing with Thierry Henry years ago about his time at Barca, and how Pep set them up to attack against teams playing deep (aka anyone who played against Pep's Barca side), and how Pep gave Henry a bollocking for deviating from the attacking patterns.

When I watch us, against the deep sides I see a lot of the issues I recall Henry mentioning. The wide players all tuck in narrow, instead of literally hugging the line and pulling the defensive side into wider positions, to create spaces between the cb and fb for midfield runners to use, or give a creative type more space as an oppo cm would tuck into the defence to plug the gaps that a runner would use.

Currently we get to the attacking third, and it feels like we play within the width of the 18 yard box (we may play on one wing, but the team on the other side comes narrow still). Its not necessarily we need new players, we just need more width and to stay wide and force gaps to appear
It's a catch 22 situation and it's been the same since the Mourinho days. What Henry was describing is barely revolutionary. It's a given that when you have the ball, your main goal is to make the pitch as big as possible. The problem is how to get there by utilizing your best players in their favourite roles and how to create the right synergies between the players in order to instil and then maintain some semblance of fluidity in your game.

Before we get to the final third, let's take a look first at what we're doing (or not doing) in the build-up phase. Solskjaer understands that, with the midfield options at his disposal, it's very difficult to move the ball through the lines down the central channels. He also acknowledges that he has to find a solution to that problem because when you're a transition-based side, you simply can't afford to dilly-dally on the ball in your own the third. So, what does he do? He spends the vast majority of his budget on a ball-playing centre-half and a right-back who possesses adequate ball-playing ability (AWB is not an attacking FB by any means but he is not a donkey on the ball either) because he aims to use the width of the pitch in order to progress the ball forward. Lindelof was preferred over Smalling for the same reasons too.

Then the problems start: The centre-halves (Maguire-Lindelof) exchange passes between them and eventually the ball is passed to the FB who stays a bit deeper because he is expected to be involved in the build-up. From that point, AWB and Shaw have two primary options and one secondary. The two primary passes available are toward the centre-half and toward the midfielder (both on the near side, of course). The first opens up the opportunity for a long diagonal switch-play pass toward the FB on the other side while the latter is supposed to get one of the midfielders on the ball, facing the goal, and with the whole of the pitch available to pick a pass.

In theory.

What actually happens is the following: When the CB gets the ball back from the FB, he can't play the long diagonal because the FB on the far side is very deep and hasn't moved higher up the pitch. And he can't play the ball vertically to the midfielder (on his side) because the latter is almost always on the same vertical line with him and he doesn't look to create an angle to receive the pass. So, it's the short-pass to the other CB who will take his turn in trying to create the same pattern with the FB on his side. Rinse and repeat. There are a few rare occasions when the CBs attempt to carry the ball through the lines on their own or play a direct pass through the lines and some others when McT will show up for the ball but that's as far as it goes.

We eventually get the ball to the halfway line (better late than never) and then other problems occur. For starters, the relationship between the #10 and the forward is static. There's no backwards-forwards movement and interchanging of positions that keeps the defenders guessing and creates angles for passes. Martial more often than not looks lackadaisical and just waits for the ball to come to him. And when he decides to brace us with his presence by dropping deeper to get more involved there's rarely anyone making any runs in behind. I mean, yesterday Lingard attempted one such run and he almost fecking scored. The problem with Lingard is that he barely resembles a proper footballer nowadays. As for our other #10s: Mata will come all the way down to our third of the pitch just to turn around and face the goal, Pereira looks for spaces available in the wide areas from where he can only cross the ball when we don't have anyone to score from crosses and Pogba is a magician with the ball but picking pockets of space between the lines isn't exactly his strong suit. Doesn't mean that we haven't missed him though with the aforementioned players being our alternatives.

One more thing regarding the second phase of our build-up. It's no secret that we aim to overload the left side and use the right-wing to switch play. When we stagnate on the ball in the midfield, Rashford rarely drops off to provide an option for a pass. Or better, there are periods during a game when he looks very active and others when he gets lost and he's only searching for runs in behind. This creates an issue because it draws the #10 on the left side to operate as a stepping stone for the ball to reach Rashford's feet and, subsequently, leaves Martial completely isolated centrally. And us with none to switch-play quickly and smoothly. Important note: This dropping off to receive the ball and play a neat one-two is the ability that makes both Salah & Mane so invaluable to Klopp's tactics. Add Firmino's constant movement (in comparison to Martial's) and the wide playmakers in their FBs and you understand two things: Why Liverpool look unbeatable and why we are not getting at the same level any time soon.

The problem with this isn't that Rashford's lazy. In your post, you mentioned Henry. He and Eto'o could stretch the pitch horizontally simply because they were comfortable with getting on the ball near the touchline. They were capable of making things happen from those positions. Rashford hasn't reached that level yet. He possesses explosive acceleration but when he's running with the ball he plays with the breaks off. He only looks to shoot. It creates a conundrum because Rashford is at his best when he receives the ball in the left half-space and near the box where he can look how to finish or link up with someone and run in behind. But the LB (Shaw or Young) can't cover the whole of the pitch vertically and the midfield is not good enough to keep the ball moving right behind him.

James is making himself more available but he's limited on the ball. Lingard has a good tactical understanding too but he's very poor on the ball too (and has other issues too). Impasse.

How much of it is on the manager and how much is on the players is up for debate. Both are at fault. We need players with a better positional sense but we also need to find ways to make things easier for ourselves. Conte struggled with the 433 initially at Chelsea because he couldn't find the extra man in the first phase of his transitions (he likes to use the width of the pitch too). He found the right formula when he reverted to three at the back. But his tactical understanding of such systems is exquisite. The lack of a physical presence up front is also hindering us. It's not the fear of resorting to hoof-balls as our FBs are playing many direct balls when they run out of options already (the secondary option i mentioned previously). It's about having a "get out of jail" card every once in a while when things get desperate. And no Lukaku isn't that type of player and Mourinho paid the price for making the wrong choice. Such an option, at least coming from the bench, could have helped us get over the finishing line in some games when the manager had to come up with different formations and tactics.

We planned the season wrongly and we put a lot of faith on too many players to provide us with solutions. And now we're paying for it.
 
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Foxbatt

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I would like to add that Ole is trying to play 1999 football in 2019. Honestly even if we get Kante and pair him with another midfield player and play a two man midfield the way we play now, we would still be in trouble. The long pass is the easiest to cut off. The FB should be used mostly to create space. I really do not understand why Fred and Scott play parallel to each other? They should be diagonal. I think the lack of pace of Maguire and Lindelof forces both of them to stay back. They should be stepping into the open space in midfield.
Our team is also unbalanced. We cannot play with three attackers and an attacking midfield player with just two midfield players in the middle. At this moment in time I would like Ole to experiment a bit too. Push Lindelolf into the holding midfield role and release Fred and Scot more. Drop one of the forwards ,maybe James and play Rashford and Martial up top together.
 

RedIan

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Simple answer, no creativity in the midfield and the number 10. Without creativity you cannot break down a compact team who park the bus and allow you the ball. Pogba is back so that does add creativity but he cant do it all alone as the opposition only have to swamp him and hes snuffed out..

We need a scholes, a Beckham or Carrick Type in midfield and a Cantona at 10 wouldn’t go a miss. Lingard/mata/Pierra are not simply not good enough at 10 - Fred and mcT have zero creative ability a pair of grafters....

no surprise we are struggling with these players
 

Jericholyte2

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This is in my simplistic view a simple case of adjusting your team for your opponent. We willingly do it by starting a back 5 against the likes of Liverpool, but we seem to refuse to do this against lesser teams where more creativity is needed.

Granted, we’ve not been able to due to the injuries to the squad, but instead of McT and Fred behind, for example, Pogba, we should have only one of the two and play with, for example, McT behind Pogba and Mata.

This would allow for (hopefully) better ball retention and creativity in a 4141 formation rather than the inflexibility of a 4231.
 

Buster15

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I would say that playing with width is a key requirement.
It is all about creating space.
Teams who defend deep deny you space and make you play in front of them. And they keep their full backs narrow.
Playing with width pulls defenders wider leaving more space between the central defenders.

It is not the only thing but it is something that United do not do properly. We have no natural width.
Just look at City against Leicester. Mahrez wide right and Stirling wide left.
Tore Leicester apart.
 

iluvoursolskjær

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To start, we need a deep lying playmaker in our team beside Pogba. As good as PP is you can't expect him to do that as well as be the one relied upon to slot the final killer pass at the end of a move around the #10 area. Fred and Mctom lack this element in their game so we lose midfield dynamism. Carrick Mctom and Pogba would be pretty epic for example.

What exacerbates this is we still don't have a CB that can initiate from the back. Blind was great at this and I still don't get why he was sold while we retained other donkeys. Maguire is far from the player we expected in this regard, so we have no opportunity to overload any particular areas.

AWB being more of a defensive fullback, we can do with a more attack minded one on the left who could link up with Pogba martial/Rashford.

Signings signings signings. And Poch.

As things stand at present moment however, all you can do is unleash Pogba to go play an intricate game with Martial and Rashford. Have James continue crossing in to dangerous areas and getting our forwards to anticipate and move in those areas. Our full backs are too crap going forward to be of any use.
 
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He'sRaldo

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Team against defensive teams:

Rashford Martial Greenwood
Mata Fred Pogba
Shaw Maguire Lindelof Wan-Bissaka
De Gea

Pretty much. Maybe Dalot, Young, or even Laird for AWB, and Williams for Shaw, but the rest of that looks good.

I would also try Dan James on the left as his play there is quite good, and he's less one dimensional.
 

NewGlory

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I would like to add that Ole is trying to play 1999 football in 2019. Honestly even if we get Kante and pair him with another midfield player and play a two man midfield the way we play now, we would still be in trouble. The long pass is the easiest to cut off. The FB should be used mostly to create space. I really do not understand why Fred and Scott play parallel to each other? They should be diagonal. I think the lack of pace of Maguire and Lindelof forces both of them to stay back. They should be stepping into the open space in midfield.
Our team is also unbalanced. We cannot play with three attackers and an attacking midfield player with just two midfield players in the middle. At this moment in time I would like Ole to experiment a bit too. Push Lindelolf into the holding midfield role and release Fred and Scot more. Drop one of the forwards ,maybe James and play Rashford and Martial up top together.
The system of play that Ole is trying to implement requires that full-backs provide width in transition. In the attacking phase Luke Shaw and AWB should be going forward, assisting RW and LW. But the problem is – they are very bad at it. So our attack from the flanks is toothless. It is exacerbated by the fact that RW James is a single-trick pony: always crossing-in, and never actually landing with either Martial or Rashford, because they never seem to read him.

When attacking from the middle, we need a talented playmaker to play between McT/Fred and the advanced forwards, but we are left at the mercy of Lingard, who basically sucks. When Pogba is in form he doesn't play #10 either, but is a more attack-minding one of the holding midfield pair, trying to implement the Kante-Pogba pair of the World Cup, except playing alongside McT who is nowhere close to Kante's level. I am not even sure if he is a DMF.

Sum total of all these disasters - we have slow, predictable and inefficient build-up lacking any creativity, useless against rigid and disciplined defenses. Our only hope is a quick counter. In games where teams give up possession and play low block it usually never comes and we are unable to score.
 
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L1nk

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This has a pretty simple answer for me. Movement, this entire thing is about movement, or our complete lack thereof.

You watch any Manchester United match when we are in possession of the football at the back, usually Lindelof or Maguire, they usually side pass it to each other for a bit and very rarely does it come through the middle, it usually goes to the fullbacks, wingers or its a hit and hope long ball.. Why? because nobody wants to move, nobody wants to come for the ball, nobody wants to take responsibility. it's very rare McTominay and Fred actually try to seperate themselves and find pockets of space in between players, instead what they will do is they will just continue to stand on the players next to them whilst ball watching, that's pretty much what they do most of the time, so they don't present themselves as a passing option because they barely make an effort to move.

If somehow they do end up in possession of the ball however, always notice the HUGE gaping open green space of the pitch between midfield and our forward players, they don't move for the ball, they just stand there, Martial or whoever is upfront usually just stands right on the line of the defense, doesn't come forward for it, the wingers stay wide, and if we have a Number 10 they are nowhere to be found either. It means we either have to pass it wide or pass it back, or attempt a long pass along the ground or in the air, usually resulting in us losing the ball.

Literally NOBODY moves for the ball, watch our players, just watch them, we have the ball at the back and i'm shouting at the damn tv because everytime we have the ball at the back, on the right or left hand side of my screen there is a gigantic open field of grass where Manchester United players should be coming up and presenting themselves for a pass but for whatever damn reason they don't, they are static, rigid and sticking to their positions, it's very very rare they do otherwise, and when they do it, it usually ends up in some nice quick one touch passing and potentially a chance, but its rare, very rare.

This is why it's easier for us to play better against teams that don't just sit back, because other teams leave space for us, our players don't have to work for it, in teams that sit back and just defend a tight ship, our players have to work harder and become a bit more creative to find themselves space, or create it.
 

He'sRaldo

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This has a pretty simple answer for me. Movement, this entire thing is about movement, or our complete lack thereof.

You watch any Manchester United match when we are in possession of the football at the back, usually Lindelof or Maguire, they usually side pass it to each other for a bit and very rarely does it come through the middle, it usually goes to the fullbacks, wingers or its a hit and hope long ball.. Why? because nobody wants to move, nobody wants to come for the ball, nobody wants to take responsibility. it's very rare McTominay and Fred actually try to seperate themselves and find pockets of space in between players, instead what they will do is they will just continue to stand on the players next to them whilst ball watching, that's pretty much what they do most of the time, so they don't present themselves as a passing option because they barely make an effort to move.

If somehow they do end up in possession of the ball however, always notice the HUGE gaping open green space of the pitch between midfield and our forward players, they don't move for the ball, they just stand there, Martial or whoever is upfront usually just stands right on the line of the defense, doesn't come forward for it, the wingers stay wide, and if we have a Number 10 they are nowhere to be found either. It means we either have to pass it wide or pass it back, or attempt a long pass along the ground or in the air, usually resulting in us losing the ball.

Literally NOBODY moves for the ball, watch our players, just watch them, we have the ball at the back and i'm shouting at the damn tv because everytime we have the ball at the back, on the right or left hand side of my screen there is a gigantic open field of grass where Manchester United players should be coming up and presenting themselves for a pass but for whatever damn reason they don't, they are static, rigid and sticking to their positions, it's very very rare they do otherwise, and when they do it, it usually ends up in some nice quick one touch passing and potentially a chance, but its rare, very rare.

This is why it's easier for us to play better against teams that don't just sit back, because other teams leave space for us, our players don't have to work for it, in teams that sit back and just defend a tight ship, our players have to work harder and become a bit more creative to find themselves space, or create it.
One reason for this is the majority of our players aren't confident of their technique to receive the ball under pressure.

You'll notice the players who do come deep the most are the most technical ones who are more assured of their first touch and ball control. Pogba, Mata, Maguire, Martial, sometimes Fred. The rest don't really want the ball in an area they could mess up. Lingard especially makes sure to always pass it back with one or two touches, and sometimes hides behind opposition players.
 
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Mcking

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Ole said he was happy with the squad so it can't be the players that is the problem - must be the coaching...
I don't think it's all about coaching. It's got more to do with the quality and style of the players. Obviously Ole isn't going to come out and say he's not happy with the squad - those stuffs can be dealt with internally.
Looking at our squad, I don't think it's hard to see why we do well against possession teams. The likes of Rashford, James, Lingard, Wan, Fred, McTominay are players who excel at disrupting the opposition's game, and they are able to turn it on when there's space. It was the same against Man city, Spurs, Pool, chelsea, brighton. There aren't many players that are as breathtaking as the likes of Lingard, James and Rashford when attacking space. James' game for eg is completely based on carrying the ball into space. The build of our players are perfect for a desruptive counter-attacking set-up.
When up against teams that set up deep and disciplined, it's completely different. The manager can only do so much. You'd mostly trust your forwards to conjure up something to open the floodgates. It requires a completely different level of guile, technique, control, passing, movement, and variety that you aren't going to get from a third of our front four. If you combine that with the limitations of some of our mids and fbs, then it's easy to see why we struggle. You could see how Martial tends to come alive around the edges, the difference him and Pogba made against Watford. That's the level you need against disciplined
sides. They have little problems playing through a block of bodies. I do have my doubts about Ole but three quarters of our front four, half of our midfield and fullbacks are below average or nothing special when they have to keep the ball and create.
The bottom line is that I think it's the profile and quality of the players, so we've got to hit the market. Ole's proven ability to get the better of the best managers should not be underestimated imo, and with more talented and sophisticated forwards, we'd be much better.
 

Crashoutcassius

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Pogba instead of Lingard or Pereira would help massively. Was funny when some people were saying that Pogba wouldn't get back in the United team. He's miles ahead of the other midfielders. Also need more from the full-backs. If you look at Liverpool, TAA and Robertson are consistently making important passes/crosses against teams sitting back and getting Liverpool out of jail. United never get that from their full-backs.
funny enough, if we were playing a possession side tomorrow in a cup final i don't think you pick a fit pogba... you pick him so not to upset him, but to win the game you put a pure ball winner in the 10 and rely on what has served us well so far rather than having pogba in the hole not winning the ball and slowing the play down

obviously any odd game where we will have possession you want pogba, and we probably won't get a result through no fault of his
 

He'sRaldo

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funny enough, if we were playing a possession side tomorrow in a cup final i don't think you pick a fit pogba... you pick him so not to upset him, but to win the game you put a pure ball winner in the 10 and rely on what has served us well so far rather than having pogba in the hole not winning the ball and slowing the play down

obviously any odd game where we will have possession you want pogba, and we probably won't get a result through no fault of his
Might as well play with 10 centerbacks then, with that mentality.
 

dave1956

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To be honest I expect players who have been coached \ played from the age of 10 upwards to understand space, movement and positioning especially if they have managed to play at the level of the premiership to be aware what is expected of them both in attack and defense and have the footballing ability /knowledge to break down opposition tactics during a game. What I do not expect is a player having to be told by the manager from the touch line whilst in play what position to take up or how he should be playing the ball. By all media accounts this is happening in our games far to much.
It begs the question are these players understanding what is required of them in training sessions / do they have understand or have the ability to carry out those lessons taught during the training periods, or is it the quality of the quality of the coaching staff
 

Nikelesh Reddy

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We either have to invest heavily to sort out our midfield,or we need a different kind of an attacking avenue uptop.I can see why we are trying to sign Haaland in January...The lads built like an ox,he can give us a different option against these types of teams and he’s also a good enough footballer to effortlessly be involved in the intricate link up play with our other attackers.We need a big signing this January...
 

Marcus

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Play Mata, Pogba, and push the fullbacks up. Just keep the opposing team under pressure. It is ok to have possession in the opponent's half. It is ok to pass side to side. But you need players with skill and ball control to not lose possession before the opposing team makes a positional error as you are shifting them around the field with your passing.
 

redIndianDevil

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To be honest I expect players who have been coached \ played from the age of 10 upwards to understand space, movement and positioning especially if they have managed to play at the level of the premiership to be aware what is expected of them both in attack and defense and have the footballing ability /knowledge to break down opposition tactics during a game. What I do not expect is a player having to be told by the manager from the touch line whilst in play what position to take up or how he should be playing the ball. By all media accounts this is happening in our games far to much.
It begs the question are these players understanding what is required of them in training sessions / do they have understand or have the ability to carry out those lessons taught during the training periods, or is it the quality of the quality of the coaching staff
If that is the case then there is no point in giving so much coverage to managers and paying them so much. But that is not the case, you can take a lot of examples where a good manager had made a team better than it was previously. Leave City and Liverpool, take a look at Leeds, Bielsa has done wonders with them, their possession play is very good and Leeds were a kick and rush team before his arrival. Leicester is also another example, the moment Rodgers arrived their passing fluidity has gone to a different level, they are constantly opening up smaller teams where we struggle way too much.

My point is that even if an individual player is strong technically, you need a good manager who can make 11 individuals to play as a team. That involves a lot of training and work in the training sessions. We can't just hope to buy a bunch of players and let them hash it out.
 

Adnan

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I think Ole should abandon the 4-2-3-1 and revert back to the 4-3-3 that got him the job in the first place. The current system doesn't suit our most creative player either so reverting back to 4-3-3 would be a positive move for now.
 

Canagel

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I don't think it's all about coaching. It's got more to do with the quality and style of the players. Obviously Ole isn't going to come out and say he's not happy with the squad - those stuffs can be dealt with internally.
Looking at our squad, I don't think it's hard to see why we do well against possession teams. The likes of Rashford, James, Lingard, Wan, Fred, McTominay are players who excel at disrupting the opposition's game, and they are able to turn it on when there's space. It was the same against Man city, Spurs, Pool, chelsea, brighton. There aren't many players that are as breathtaking as the likes of Lingard, James and Rashford when attacking space. James' game for eg is completely based on carrying the ball into space. The build of our players are perfect for a desruptive counter-attacking set-up.
When up against teams that set up deep and disciplined, it's completely different. The manager can only do so much. You'd mostly trust your forwards to conjure up something to open the floodgates. It requires a completely different level of guile, technique, control, passing, movement, and variety that you aren't going to get from a third of our front four. If you combine that with the limitations of some of our mids and fbs, then it's easy to see why we struggle. You could see how Martial tends to come alive around the edges, the difference him and Pogba made against Watford. That's the level you need against disciplined
sides. They have little problems playing through a block of bodies. I do have my doubts about Ole but three quarters of our front four, half of our midfield and fullbacks are below average or nothing special when they have to keep the ball and create.
The bottom line is that I think it's the profile and quality of the players, so we've got to hit the market. Ole's proven ability to get the better of the best managers should not be underestimated imo, and with more talented and sophisticated forwards, we'd be much better.
Yet Ole has bought two of these "counter attacking players". There's no indication he won't buy more of them if it's his preferred style. If we want a technical based outlook we need a manager that values technique. And then it will be reflected our transfers business .
And if he can best top managers it also means he has enough in his disposal to best managers that don't have his resources, he's just doing a bad job with it.
 
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Steamboat Willy

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First off all Pogbas return, will change our attack completely. The lack of a creative CAM is disturbing, and tbh Lingard and Pereira couldn’t start as the creative force for any other EPL team. Hardly a top Championship team.

But it doesn’t all come down to the lack of a CAM. We also need a striker who positions himself better, and works harder around the box. Martial goes deep to link up, but he is mobning slowly, and he also needs til drift around sideways around the box, and make som deep runs behind the line.

Another issue is our LB and RB not having the skills to be a reel threat to anyone. With both Wan-Bissaka and Shaw starting, we narrow our attack to much, since Rashford constantly seeks to cut in. I believe we could benefit from a more offensive gifted LB to give width to our left flank.

And finally, if we got a CAM and a Defensive midtfielder to defend our backline, we could have som runs in the box from the other CM as Well. Pogba could be ideal in that role, being creative in building up attack with our CAM, and adding some piercing runs throug the defensive lines.
 
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Mcking

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Yet Ole has bought two of these "counter attacking players". There's no indication he won't buy more of them if it's his preferred style. If we want a technical based outlook we need a manager that values technique. And then it will be reflected our transfers business .
And if he can best top managers it also means he has enough in his disposal to best managers that don't have his resources, he's just doing a bad job with it.
I see James as nothing but an opportunistic signing, and Wan more like a judgemental error, but I understand the reasoning behind signing him as he was the obvious british rb in the market. I expect Ole to be smart enough to understand the importance of creative midfielders and the influence of top forwards, and I expect that to be reflected in our activities in the next few transfer windows.
The team doesn't struggle by design, but by circumstance, and there's no way Ole would be completely happy with consistently struggling against the likes of Newcastle.
He's had just one window signing two defenders and a £15m forward that shouldn't be taken seriously. I don't think the three players he's signed is an indication of a dogma towards a counter-attacking approach, but just shows that he's started the stated rebuild from the defence - James is just a punt. Even if he wants to counter, this season must have shown him that you need creativity to go with it - if he didn't already know - and I don't see why we won't be buying players that would do both.
 

Josh 76

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First off all Pogbas return, will change our attack completely. The lack of a creative CAM is disturbing, and tbh Lingard and Pereira couldn’t start as the creative force for any other EPL team. Hardly a top Championship team.

But it doesn’t all come down to the lack of a CAM. We also need a striker who positions himself better, and works harder around the box. Martial goes deep to link up, but he is mobning slowly, and he also needs til drift around sideways around the box, and make som deep runs behind the line.

Another issue is our LB and RB not having the skills to be a reel threat to anyone. With both Wan-Bissaka and Shaw starting, we narrow our attack to much, since Rashford constantly seeks to cut in. I believe we could benefit from a more offensive gifted LB to give width to our left flank.

And finally, if we got a CAM and a Defensive midtfielder to defend our backline, we could have som runs in the box from the other CM as Well. Pogba could be ideal in that role, being creative in building up attack with our CAM, and adding some piercing runs throug the defensive lines.
Agree With this.
But it's a number of factors that break down a low block.

Moving the ball quicker
Movement up front
Deep runners from midfeild
Over lapping full backs
Creative AM.

We do neither. Liverpool do all of these things. Maybe they don't have a AM , but they don't need one.
 

Dan_F

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The system of play that Ole is trying to implement requires that full-backs provide width in transition. In the attacking phase Luke Shaw and AWB should be going forward, assisting RW and LW. But the problem is – they are very bad at it. So our attack from the flanks is toothless. It is exacerbated by the fact that RW James is a single-trick pony: always crossing-in, and never actually landing with either Martial or Rashford, because they never seem to read him.

When attacking from the middle, we need a talented playmaker to play between McT/Fred and the advanced forwards, but we are left at the mercy of Lingard, who basically sucks. When Pogba is in form he doesn't play #10 either, but is a more attack-minding one of the holding midfield pair, trying to implement the Kante-Pogba pair of the World Cup, except playing alongside McT who is nowhere close to Kante's level. I am not even sure if he is a DMF.

Sum total of all these disasters - we have slow, predictable and inefficient build-up lacking any creativity, useless against rigid and disciplined defenses. Our only hope is a quick counter. In games where teams give up possession and play low block it usually never comes and we are unable to score.
I agree with pretty much all of this. The summers transfers, again, just showed how much we need a director of football with a plan of the kind of player we need to sign for each position, depending on the system we want to play.

Pogba wouldn’t be a problem if he had a proper defensive midfielder with him. I’ve said it since he broke into the team, McTominay isn’t a DM, he’s a box to box player. James should be an impact sub, he can’t effect games where he doesn’t have space, because he isn’t good enough at that side of the game. It should be AWB overlapping and using all the space that James leaves behind, but neither of those things happens.

So yes, it is partly the players. But I’ve seen almost nothing that makes me think Ole can get us competing with the top teams.
 

Jacckk1985

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It is all on the system, not necessarily copying a team like Liverpool. It is not only a case that Liverpool have attacking full backs, it is a case that their fullbacks are their main creative attacking outlet plus Firmino, and then Salah/Mane chips in with assists as well as goals. Man City's system is different where their creativity comes from KDB in midfield and the wide men in Sterling, Marhrez, B Silva & Sane(when fit). They are also not reliant on just one player providing the creativity and assists they have at least 3-4 players who are capable who can provide that bit of "Magic" when needed,

Our problem is that we have only 1 creative player in Pogba you saw how the game changed creativity wise when he came on.

Watford gave Liverpool a good game, possibly played better against them than they did against us. But lost 2-0 Liverpool have match winners with guile and experience to keep playing against stubborn teams until the breakthrough takes place, as they know they have the players to do it, they don't get easily frustrated when things don't go their way, experience has taught them that.They keep to the system

Our Match winners are mainly kids (most under 23) who when things are going well against top teams they thrive on the adrenaline i.e against Spurs & City. But when some "who do they think they are" smaller team is up against them who shows a high level of stubborn intensity, they get easily frustrated players like Rashford is one that can get easily frustrated when things don't go his way. With no viable effective system of play to keep to they try to do their own thing which sometimes may work to an extent (against Sheff Utd when they were 2-0 down) but usually fails.


I started this saying it is all about the system..but looking now it is the system plus players mentality and if they trust the system or not.
SOmeone give this man a like, couldn't have said it better. We need to strengthen the squad in terms of individual creativity.
 

Lentwood

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It’s not really rocket science is it?

Our main problem is we don’t actually have a player who plays like a centre forward. Sure, Martial can be semi-effective in the forward role but he doesn’t make typical CF movements inside the box, offers little in the air and isn’t a physical presence.

Add to that the fact that we have the worst two #10s in the league in Mata and Lingard (if you disagree check the stats for goals/assists) and the fact we have two holding players behind them who’s main focus is ball retention and it’s no wonder we can’t break down the low block!

We also only ever really score one type of goal...when was the last time a cross was whipped into the box and one of our players rose above a CB to score a header? When was a ball last flashed across goal and a CF met it sliding in at the back post? When did a cut-back last break to an on-rushing AMC who tucked the ball away from the edge of the box? When did we last score a set-piece? They are all standard goals for opponents but we don’t score them

Pogba coming back should be a massive help. If we could sign Haaland that would also make a huge difference based on the 2/3 times I’ve seen him play.

In my opinion, breaking down a low block isn’t really a “tactical” issue - and that’s why I don’t blame Ole. Sure, a manager can contribute to solving the problem but if the players don’t have the base attributes it’s always going to be a stru
 

Fortitude

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Wouldn't call Wolves deep, but our inability to construct any kind of sequential attack not reliant on breaking at pace, is really depressing.

In a game where we need guile, it just highlights how utterly devoid of ideas we are.
 

NewGlory

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Wouldn't call Wolves deep, but our inability to construct any kind of sequential attack not reliant on breaking at pace, is really depressing.

In a game where we need guile, it just highlights how utterly devoid of ideas we are.
Wolves were utter shite, and we still didn't get even a single shot on target.

1. We need world-class #10 desperately. Mata is done and neither Perreira, nor Lingard are capable
2. Martial is huge for us. When he is out we are screwed
3. Greenwood playing wide is much worse than greenwood through the center, at least when Martial is absent

Williams was a delight to watch, yet again