How we fail in our build-up and why

[Rash Decision]

I would say a system that falls apart completely because one player doesn’t perform doesn’t sound like a robust one. Especially if it hinges on a player who’s never been that consistent anyway and isn’t suited to the role he’s being asked to play. We could find a world class DM somewhere, but until then should really be offering the midfield more protection and support.

And it’s also a problem when exactly none of our midfielders are naturally of the sort who retain possession and circulate the ball, or are even asked to do that it seems. (VdB aside.)

So to help such players, the system needs to have greater structure so that they can do things that they’re not naturally inclined to do by rote. But again this is not part of our coaching philosophy, which prizes freedom and flair over structure. It’s nota bad thing per se, but I don’t think we have the balance right.

 

[hungrywing]

They have played 3-4-3 every game. Had their first three games not been against Leicester, Spurs and us, all of whom scraped wins against them, they'd be much higher up the table. Not many teams will beat Leicester, Spurs and us this season.

Thank you. They looked so well-drilled. Five at the back perfectly spaced and moving in concert when we had possession, three midfielders boxing Fred and Pogba in whenever they decided to press.

 

[E-mal]

We play with a 10 but that doesn’t give us the extra man in midfield. Our 10 is a 10 who is more focused on deciding games than controlling them. He’s helped decide a lot of games, so it’s not an automatic negative, but it comes at a cost.

The Pogba on the left thing works a bit better because in practice, he ends up being more of an actual 10. But that too comes at a cost.

The shape of our midfield has been a problem for a while. I made a thread about the shape of our midfield the season before last, when we were winning games after lockdown with Matic, Pogba and Bruno. Matic turns into a centre half, Bruno a centre forward, and Pogba stands in the centre-circle alone. This may well all be tactical decisions of course, but we will find it hard to control a game if our midfield 3 do not regularly play within 10-15 yards of each other at most. Often it will need to be much less than that. Otherwise, we’re basically putting an emphasis on individual ability to just find a way through a couple of players.

Very good post and encapsulate most of my thoughts.
About the bold part, do you think we still need those match deciding moments from him now considering we have alot of match deciders upfront?
Surely Sancho/Rashford/Greenwood/Ronaldo/ Cavani can give us that?
I have always maintained that Bruno's stat should be viewed like those of a striker and compared similarly since he plays basically as a forward and takes most of the penalties and freekicks for us. If Pogba was to play in that same role he perhaps will have thesame numbers.
We might be better in some games playing Pogba and Donny in front of a DM to help us control games if Bruno is not capable of playing in a more controlled manner or deeper in midfield.
The coaching team will have to decide on how we set up the team.
Bruno came at a dark time and we gave him the freedom, he delivered but it has come at a cost.

 

[Adisa]

It was quite funny in a sad way when dion dublin was talking about our issues against wolves on motd2 and the need for a player to drop into the space between the defence and midfield so pogna could find him.

We do have a player who would have been ideal but Ole refuses to play him van der beek.

Fernandes is first and foremost a midfielder. Someone needs to get hold of him.

 

[Adisa]

This may well all be tactical decisions of course, but we will find it hard to control a game if our midfield 3 do not regularly play within 10-15 yards of each other at most. Often it will need to be much less than that. Otherwise, we’re basically putting an emphasis on individual ability to just find a way through a couple of players.

This is the singular biggest issue with our midfield, isolation.

 

[Eddy_JukeZ]

This is the singular biggest issue with our midfield, isolation.

It's why clamoring for a holding midfielder so much is pointless to me.

It doesn't matter who we bring in. The same issues will still persist unless we change the shape of the team.

 

[#07]

Feeling nostalgic reading posts in this thread...

...almost tempted to bump the zombie football thread!

 

[Rozay]

Very good post and encapsulate most of my thoughts.
About the bold part, do you think we still need those match deciding moments from him now considering we have alot of match deciders upfront?
Surely Sancho/Rashford/Greenwood/Ronaldo/ Cavani can give us that?
I have always maintained that Bruno's stat should be viewed like those of a striker and compared similarly since he plays basically as a forward and takes most of the penalties and freekicks for us. If Pogba was to play in that same role he perhaps will have thesame numbers.
We might be better in some games playing Pogba and Donny in front of a DM to help us control games if Bruno is not capable of playing in a more controlled manner or deeper in midfield.
The coaching team will have to decide on how we set up the team.
Bruno came at a dark time and we gave him the freedom, he delivered but it has come at a cost.

I agree. I’ve said from the very beginning that I believe that ‘Bruno is the 10 this team needs right now, but not the 10 that the full/final version of this team needs’. Said it 100 times and is still my view.

Simply put, when he came, putting scores on the board was all that mattered. Simply because we struggled to do it. But that will never be the most fundamental task for a 10. A 10 is supposed to link the team’s play first and foremost IMO, and that has always been the primary role. That said, in a team with inconsistent young forwards, Bruno was a Godsend.

However, as the forwards have developed, and we now have a supreme goalscorer in Ronaldo, the parts of the 10 role besides scoring goals are what we need him to contribute above all else. And this is why I have always been unsure of him, because IMO, he is an average player in the middle third. When the game is short and close, he doesn’t have the toolkit for me, and Donny is a better player at the short game I’d say.

With Ronaldo likely to take our pens, Bruno will not score as many goals, and poor contribution in other areas will be more visible. We are getting closer to the final version of this team, and as far as Portuguese 10s go, I’d prefer a Bernardo Silva over a Bruno Fernandes personally, and always will in a team with a front 3 who can score 60+ goals themselves.

 

[NZT-One]

I'm not saying the plan worked fantastically well but the logic was not bad. Wolves' big chances were a set piece and a turnover from Fred failing to deal with a ball straight at him, then flailing about after Trincao once he picked up the ball. It was not DeGea at the Emirates 2017-18. You're overegging it.

I agree with that. The logic in itself isn't bad. But, in opposition to you, I think, that this is mostly our tactic all the time and by now, I would have wished we would be adaptable enough to at least try something more elaborate in games, where it doesn't work.

 

[Borys]

Basically our plan had two elements:

First, ensure our defence would not be continually outnumbered by the Wolves wingbacks joining their attacks to create 5 vs 4 situations.
Second, to have the game hinge on a 2-a-side midfield contest between Pogba and Fred and Moutinho and Neves.

To some extent the plan worked. We were able to defend Wolves with a numerical advantage most the time. The plan mostly came unstuck when, according to our design, the 2-a-side game broke down. That had nothing to do with Fred not being like Kante. I'm not sure why you've brought up that comparison.

What we needed Fred to do, what our gameplan hinged on, was our midfield two engaging and beating the Wolves midfield in 1v1 duels. With our front line pulling Wolves' defence deeper, we needed our midfielders to actively engage Wolves. Dribble through the first line of pressure, from Moutinho and/or Neves, then use the space in front of the Wolves defence. Its the kind of thing Renato Sanches does so well: Beat a man and open up midfield.

Pogba is actually quite good at this, McTominay also although he does it more with brute strength than technique. Matic takes too many touches to do this effectively though and ends up going sideways and Fred...

Yeah the whole gameplan fell down because Fred is just a limited player with the ball at his feet. Whenever he got it Moutinho and/or Neves actively engaged him, knowing they could pressure him into turnovers. Fred should be better than that and has played better than that, both for Brazil and United. But whatever confidence he gained against Leeds has obviously evaporated.

I agree Fred isn't good at it, we're not playing to his strengths which is another issue, but how many times did Pogba do it?

 

[crossy1686]

What an opinion? You know sitting on your sofa as a fan on a forum you are entitled to them. You shit doesn't smell any sweeter than mine....

It's comical that people seem to think players who spent years at an elite level, day in, day out, training with the best, coached by the best, winning everything, AND have their elite level coaching badges simply don't know how to coach or what level of intensity is needed in training sessions.

But sure yeah, whatever, they're clueless, no idea how to coach, send them all to Derby to learn how to be better...

 

[E-mal]

I agree. I’ve said from the very beginning that I believe that ‘Bruno is the 10 this team needs right now, but not the 10 that the full/final version of this team needs’. Said it 100 times and is still my view.

Simply put, when he came, putting scores on the board was all that mattered. Simply because we struggled to do it. But that will never be the most fundamental task for a 10. A 10 is supposed to link the team’s play first and foremost IMO, and that has always been the primary role. That said, in a team with inconsistent young forwards, Bruno was a Godsend.

However, as the forwards have developed, and we now have a supreme goalscorer in Ronaldo, the parts of the 10 role besides scoring goals are what we need him to contribute above all else. And this is why I have always been unsure of him, because IMO, he is an average player in the middle third. When the game is short and close, he doesn’t have the toolkit for me, and Donny is a better player at the short game I’d say.

With Ronaldo likely to take our pens, Bruno will not score as many goals, and poor contribution in other areas will be more visible. We are getting closer to the final version of this team, and as far as Portuguese 10s go, I’d prefer a Bernardo Silva over a Bruno Fernandes personally, and always will in a team with a front 3 who can score 60+ goals themselves.

Again, agree 100%
We will now be needing his playmaking abilities which are generally average.
No matter how we set up in midfield, we need Pogba as part of our 3 because he is our only true playmaker.

 

[Litch]

It's comical that people seem to think players who spent years at an elite level, day in, day out, training with the best, coached by the best, winning everything, AND have their elite level coaching badges simply don't know how to coach or what level of intensity is needed in training sessions.

But sure yeah, whatever, they're clueless, no idea how to coach, send them all to Derby to learn how to be better...

It's comical how people change what you say, to make their argument. Like I said, has Ole or his coaching staff, managed or coached at this level before?

 

[Red Devil 26]

I agree. I’ve said from the very beginning that I believe that ‘Bruno is the 10 this team needs right now, but not the 10 that the full/final version of this team needs’. Said it 100 times and is still my view.

Simply put, when he came, putting scores on the board was all that mattered. Simply because we struggled to do it. But that will never be the most fundamental task for a 10. A 10 is supposed to link the team’s play first and foremost IMO, and that has always been the primary role. That said, in a team with inconsistent young forwards, Bruno was a Godsend.

However, as the forwards have developed, and we now have a supreme goalscorer in Ronaldo, the parts of the 10 role besides scoring goals are what we need him to contribute above all else. And this is why I have always been unsure of him, because IMO, he is an average player in the middle third. When the game is short and close, he doesn’t have the toolkit for me, and Donny is a better player at the short game I’d say.

With Ronaldo likely to take our pens, Bruno will not score as many goals, and poor contribution in other areas will be more visible. We are getting closer to the final version of this team, and as far as Portuguese 10s go, I’d prefer a Bernardo Silva over a Bruno Fernandes personally, and always will in a team with a front 3 who can score 60+ goals themselves.

I think this is spot on tbh. But I fear this will never be challenged/ addressed because, well, it's Bruno and he's pretty much untouchable. Unless he changes the way he plays, I think we'll struggle to build through midfield and control games better. Not solely on him of course, but it's definitely a factor.

 

[Siorac]

Fernandes is first and foremost a midfielder. Someone needs to get hold of him.

The way he plays, he's as much of a midfielder as Rooney was. He's a second striker more than anything though he does pop up all over the pitch, just like Rooney did in his long-forgotten youth.

 

[roonster09]

So 4-3-3 is the solution for everything? Bayern plays 4-2-3-1 with Muller who plays higher up the pitch alongside Lewandowski and they never struggle to control the game or to build up the play.

Poch dominated so many big teams with 4-2-3-1 playing Alli close to Kane.

4-3-3 is not a magic formula and even if we drop Bruno deeper, it won't solve anything (well I disagree with any post that says he is a second striker). It's not the formation, it's how the coach set up. We don't play as a team, we don't build the play as a team. We are more direct team (not long ball but direct), we look for quick forward passes than slowing building the game.

 

[Rozay]

So 4-3-3 is the solution for everything? Bayern plays 4-2-3-1 with Muller who plays higher up the pitch alongside Lewandowski and they never struggle to control the game or to build up the play.

Poch dominated so many big teams with 4-2-3-1 playing Alli close to Kane.

4-3-3 is not a magic formula and even if we drop Bruno deeper, it won't solve anything (well I disagree with any post that says he is a second striker). It's not the formation, it's how the coach set up. We don't play as a team, we don't build the play as a team. We are more direct team (not long ball but direct), we look for quick forward passes than slowing building the game.

Bayern could probably play most games with just one midfielder if they wanted to, and Poch did not play like Bayern, as alongside Alli was not two wingers - but one in Son, and then Christian Eriksen. The Spurs formation is closer to ours when we play Pogba on the left alongside Bruno - with Bruno being Alli and Greenwood being Son.

 

[Hoof the ball]

There's definitely an issue with:

1. A lack of clarity in terms of individual players understanding their specific role.
2. A lack of understanding in how each role is to function in the context of various phases of the buildup
3. A lack of cohesion as a team in how they are to respond in both defensive and offensive transition.

Whilst it is true that mediocre players can undermine a great system, it is equally true that a defined system can make an average player function above his station.

For eg. Potter is an excellent coach. You see it week in, week out. He doesn't have the individual players to be the difference, however, he's still able to take players with a limited capacity or potential and drill a level of tactical fluidity that permits them to perform collectively to a greater degree. The point, of course, is that limiting resources isn't an excuse for inadequate coaching and dysfunction on match day as it relates to the cohesive whole.

Now, let's be honest. Ole isn't a Potter, let alone, a Tuchel or a Pep in terms of coaching. I don't think anyone is under the illusion that he is, which means that Ole has another major responsibility on his shoulders. He has to compensate for his lack of coaching nous with excellent man-management and delegation of coaching responsibilities to specialists to can coach transitional play, or positional drills to a greater degree than that which is currently in our employ. Having Tuchel or Pep minimises that need because they're so hands on, but with Ole, it's imperative that he hires more specialists to improve us where we need improving.

 

[roonster09]

Bayern could probably play most games with just one midfielder if they wanted to, and Poch did not play like Bayern, as alongside Alli was not two wingers - but one in Son, and then Christian Eriksen. The Spurs formation is closer to ours when we play Pogba on the left alongside Bruno - with Bruno being Alli and Greenwood being Son.

Bayern play the same way in CL against big teams too.

Yeah Poch didn't play like Bayern, he played 4-2-3-1 and didn't have problem dominate the game or control the game with 2 CMs.

It's not formation or just players, team is more or less mirrors what manager wants or their style of play. We can't hire Jose and expect the midfield to dominate the game, same with any coach.

Ole himself said he doesn't like "tippy tappy nonsense" and wants his midfielders to go for forward passes as soon as possible, only risk is they might lose possession but it shouldn't matter as the team should press and win the ball back. That's what he said when he spoke to Neville. We play exactly like that.

Few think 3 at the back is defensive, one of the most attacking team in top 5 leagues play 3 at the back. Many think 4-2-3-1 is outdated, one of the strongest club in top 5 league plays 4-2-3-1. Formation is just name on the paper, it's the coach and his principles that decides how the team plays on the pitch.

 

[crossy1686]

It's comical how people change what you say, to make their argument. Like I said, has Ole or his coaching staff, managed or coached at this level before?

No one has until the have. Do you understand the paradox in what you're saying?

 

[Rozay]

Bayern play the same way in CL against big teams too.

Yeah Poch didn't play like Bayern, he played 4-2-3-1 and didn't have problem dominate the game or control the game with 2 CMs.

It's not formation or just players, team is more or less mirrors what manager wants or their style of play. We can't hire Jose and expect the midfield to dominate the game, same with any coach.

Ole himself said he doesn't like "tippy tappy nonsense" and wants his midfielders to go for forward passes as soon as possible, only risk is they might lose possession but it shouldn't matter as the team should press and win the ball back. That's what he said when he spoke to Neville. We play exactly like that.

Few think 3 at the back is defensive, one of the most attacking team in top 5 leagues play 3 at the back. Many think 4-2-3-1 is outdated, one of the strongest club in top 5 league plays 4-2-3-1. Formation is just name on the paper, it's the coach and his principles that decides how the team plays on the pitch.

That’s a fair point, but that has simply offered the reason for why we play as we do, it doesn’t remove the problems generated by it. At the end of the day, we are not as good as Bayern. If it is not a problem for Bayern, but a problem for Manchester United to do the same thing, I couldn’t care less what the others are doing. In my personal opinion, our midfield does not work, and has not worked for a long time. I have my own theories on how that can be improved, and that’s what I’d like to see personally, regardless of whatever vision Ole has, because watching us play football every week - I don’t subscribe to the same vision.

 

[roonster09]

That’s a fair point, but that has simply offered the reason for why we play as we do, it doesn’t remove the problems generated by it. At the end of the day, we are not as good as Bayern. If it is not a problem for Bayern, but a problem for Manchester United to do the same thing, I couldn’t care less what the others are doing. In my personal opinion, our midfield does not work, and has not worked for a long time. I have my own theories on how that can be improved, and that’s what I’d like to see personally, regardless of whatever vision Ole has, because watching us play football every week - I don’t subscribe to the same vision.

Yeah but how can we remove the problems when the man in charge don't think it's a problem?

Yeah, we are not as good as Bayern and with all due respect to Ole, Bayern won't be as good as Bayern if he was the manager. Top class manager makes the difference, we can add any player, we will still end up playing the same way.

Ofcourse everyone has their own vision on how team should play and how they can achieve that, it's just that fingers should be pointed at the person who is responsible for that. Replace Ole with Pep and we will go with 4-1-4-1 or variant of that with Bruno, Pogba in midfield, dominating midfields in most games (if not every game), everyone working their socks off when not in possession. We have already seen it too, City team with players like Fernandinho, Yaya, Silva, KdB was dominated by ManUtd team with players like Fellaini, Herrera, Rooney in midfield (With Van Gaal as manager). Fast forward one year, Pep became their manager and same midfield with Fernandinho, Silva, KdB dominated every team in the league.

 

[Rozay]

Yeah but how can we remove the problems when the man in charge don't think it's a problem?

Yeah, we are not as good as Bayern and with all due respect to Ole, Bayern won't be as good as Bayern if he was the manager. Top class manager makes the difference, we can add any player, we will still end up playing the same way.

Ofcourse everyone has their own vision on how team should play and how they can achieve that, it's just that fingers should be pointed at the person who is responsible for that. Replace Ole with Pep and we will go with 4-1-4-1 or variant of that with Bruno, Pogba in midfield, dominating midfields in most games (if not every game), everyone working their socks off when not in possession. We have already seen it too, City team with players like Fernandinho, Yaya, Silva, KdB was dominated by ManUtd team with players like Fellaini, Herrera, Rooney in midfield (With Van Gaal as manager). Fast forward one year, Pep became their manager and same midfield with Fernandinho, Silva, KdB dominated every team in the league.

I have some doubts about how strict he is to his vision and what the percentage is of him wanting to submit to the will of certain individuals. It doesn’t help him that his two best players by far are the two that play a huge part in unbalancing our team. I’m sure it would be far easier for him to make the change if it wasn’t Bruno and Pogba. In fact, he’s even found a medium at times with Pogba, which shows that he does understand the benefits of a different type of midfield. As you are quoting him, there are also a number of times where he’s said things like ‘we felt Paul there would give us more control in the midfield’ etc. Having little control of the midfield I doubt is his game plan. What happened at Wolves yesterday would have undoubtedly concerned him as it was unfolding, as opposed to him being relaxed because his team had played exactly as he instructed them too.

Liverpool are also a direct, non ‘tippy-tappy’ team but they also deploy three actual midfielders in their midfield. If they dropped one of them and replaced him with Firmino for 38 games, they’d be in trouble IMO.

 

[Litch]

No one has until the have. Do you understand the paradox in what you're saying?

Nice try. Is it a paradox if I was asking about Klopp or Pep?

 

[worldinmotion66]

Brought in Ronaldo to use him as a sub then.

Excellent.

Obviously he'll play instead of cavani (or pogba). No matter which one you leave out, we have a strong option on the bench. Thanks for completely ignoring the point of the post though.

 

[worldinmotion66]

I like that.

The glaring issue is Fred playing the Jorginho role.

Yeah that is the problem position for us. But, like it or not, we are going to have to trust Fred this season. The lack of depth there is glaringly obvious but there are very few quality tempo dictating dms in world football.

 

[croadyman]

Yeah it's so unbelievably frustrating that we have a solid looking defence, fantastic forward line but I'm concerned that due to the poor build-up we will lose the ball in the midfield and not be able to supply our creative players enough

 

[roonster09]

I have some doubts about how strict he is to his vision and what the percentage is of him wanting to submit to the will of certain individuals. It doesn’t help him that his two best players by far are the two that play a huge part in unbalancing our team. I’m sure it would be far easier for him to make the change if it wasn’t Bruno and Pogba. In fact, he’s even found a medium at times with Pogba, which shows that he does understand the benefits of a different type of midfield. As you are quoting him, there are also a number of times where he’s said things like ‘we felt Paul there would give us more control in the midfield’ etc. Having little control of the midfield I doubt is his game plan. What happened at Wolves yesterday would have undoubtedly concerned him as it was unfolding, as opposed to him being relaxed because his team had played exactly as he instructed them too.

Liverpool are also a direct, non ‘tippy-tappy’ team but they also deploy three actual midfielders in their midfield. If they dropped one of them and replaced him with Firmino for 38 games, they’d be in trouble IMO.

Yeah I agree, two of his best players unbalance the team and the players we have added will reduce the team's defensive ability. Apart from Cavani, everyone is poor at pressing, which will be even worse when we have Rashford, Martial, Sancho, Greenwood who all are in bottom 10 when it comes to pressing. Anyways that's for another thread I guess.

Yeah, maybe he is flexible I don't know. I'm just going by what he said and team more or less going for forward passes all the time. He answered that when Neville or other guy asked about his philosophy and how he wants his team to play. He said Manutd player should always take risks. More or less, he says same thing when asked about the style of play he wants his team to play.

Regarding Liverpool, their approach is different. They also have Trent who is better passer than most CMs in the league. Liverpool controls possession and dominates almost every game they play. They averaged close to 60% possession in last 2-3 seasons. They play work-horse midfield but they dominate games, almost every game. I wouldn't call them direct but they use Van dijk to switch the play many times.

You think Liverpool replacing one midfielder with Firmino will weaken them (well Firmino is having poor seasons), what if they replace one of the midfielder with KdB? A proper attacking mid. Also Bayern playing one attacking mid/second striker didn't stop them from dominating.

Also yes, Ole would/should be concerned about the game. We were outplayed all game.

There are many ways you can dominate the game, IMO everything depends on the man in charge.

 

[The Siege]

It's the runs that I find genuinely hilarious. We have no rhythm to who drops into the hole and who makes the run beyond defence.

I was just noticing what happens when Pogba was on the ball around the half line, and it was laughable.
- In one instance, Greenwood dragged a couple of defenders out of place by dropping into the hole, and no one makes a run into that space (should have been Bruno). James tries to make a difficult run cutting in from wide and is eased out with no difficulty.
- In another situation, 4 players were making the exact same run at the same time, all running in line with the wolves defence who have all the runs easily covered. Acres of space in the hole, literally no one there.

Aside from Cavani, who looks like he's a god at it next to the rest of the lot, our attacking runs are a joke.

 

[bosskeano]

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there is so much tactically strong and flexible with the southampton shape but at the same time so many glaring breakdowns in the structure and movement of the united players.

Fred constantly following the ball and becoming "hidden" is one issue.....Lindelof and Maguire taking too long on the ball is another issue.

AWB playing too low allowing the wide forward to cover him and the CB at the same time is an issue as it eliminates any chance of creating an overload

 

[Champ]

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there is so much tactically strong and flexible with the southampton shape but at the same time so many glaring breakdowns in the structure and movement of the united players.

Fred constantly following the ball and becoming "hidden" is one issue.....Lindelof and Maguire taking too long on the ball is another issue.

AWB playing too low allowing the wide forward to cover him and the CB at the same time is an issue as it eliminates any chance of creating an overload

There's nothing wrong with United's shape in that clip.

The only issue is that Southampton have 6 players to United 5 in our half. The ball needed to go longer quicker in order to beat the press which is the reason we had more players beyond the press.

 

[Foxbatt]

Football is about passing and moving. The first instinct of our players when they get the ball is head down and sprint. This is the worst thing to do. They try to run with the ball until they have no option. Then they try to pass. It's too late by then.
This is where someone like DVB can do very well.
I agree with people who say that we need much better coaching staff. Ole is a very good man manager it seems. If he upgrades his coaching staff he could win trophies.
Greenwood took good corners before and we had variations. We have Maguire, Pogba, Cavani and Varane who are very good headers of the ball.

 

[Alvaro Maestre]

The main issue is the incredible amount of misplaced passes, we were misplacing 1 out of 3 in the first half, and they were easy ones.

 

[bosskeano]

There's nothing wrong with United's shape in that clip.

The only issue is that Southampton have 6 players to United 5 in our half. The ball needed to go longer quicker in order to beat the press which is the reason we had more players beyond the press.

That's a clear fundamental issue with United's shape if they want to build out of the back if they have fewer players than the opposition. what are you talking about? How can you build out if we have fewer players in the possession area? Going long isn't build up play, that is called route one football.

 

[reelworld]

Yeah I doubt so too, though we desperately need to do something about how we set up in possession. But by now it seems pretty clear that Ole doesn’t care too much about possession. I suspect he wants us to play a little like Liverpool, but he doesn’t have anywhere near the same players or coaching setup that they have. And much like many fans, I believe he subscribes to the old-school SAF style of putting great attackers on the pitch, getting the ball to them as quickly as possible and letting them work their magic.

edit: also don’t think Rashford is really a wide player in the mould of Sterling/Sane, so not sure if this would work either. It might end up with Shaw and Rashford trying to occupy the same spaces and no one keeping width.

I agree with the point that Ole doesn't care about possession that much. But Liverpool have great move and pass ability from their midfielders to create space and time for their fullbacks to go up and create something.

 

[Champ]

That's a clear fundamental issue with United's shape if they want to build out of the back if they have fewer players than the opposition. what are you talking about? How can you build out if we have fewer players in the possession area? Going long isn't build up play, that is called route one football.

No, it's called doing what you need to to try win a game.

Liverpool are very direct with their passing, doesn't mean they are route one.

The simple fact of the matter is in that clip we were set up to beat the press with a longer ball, watch it again and you'll see the runners waiting for the longer ball.

 

[croadyman]

Football is about passing and moving. The first instinct of our players when they get the ball is head down and sprint. This is the worst thing to do. They try to run with the ball until they have no option. Then they try to pass. It's too late by then.
This is where someone like DVB can do very well.
I agree with people who say that we need much better coaching staff. Ole is a very good man manager it seems. If he upgrades his coaching staff he could win trophies.
Greenwood took good corners before and we had variations. We have Maguire, Pogba, Cavani and Varane who are very good headers of the ball.

Yeah I just wish we could get someone in who could coach this team how to pass and move into spaces better, you would think someone like Carrick being so silky on the ball would be able to teach stuff like that but not seeing enough evidence

 

[Marwood]

There was a time when this sort of thing was quite simple.

Get it, try and pass it forwards if possible, move to make yourself available. Do it all with a bit of intensity.

I'm convinced if a few players stuck to these basics we'd be much better and the huge tactical analysis amongst fans wouldn't exist.

 

[Lentwood]

What amazes me about threads like this is this - do posters on here genuinely believe that amateur tacticians on Twitter have identified something that our team of coaches and analysts are not aware of?

It's one thing to say, 'Utd have this issue, Utd have that issue', it's another entirely to actually coach sub-standard/limited players to do something better/differently - especially when you're dealing with senior players like Fred or Matic.

Let's have it right, even Pep hasn't been able to coach many of the players he inherited at City. He's simply just replaced the many, many players he didn't feel were coachable.

 

[Teja]

So 4-3-3 is the solution for everything? Bayern plays 4-2-3-1 with Muller who plays higher up the pitch alongside Lewandowski and they never struggle to control the game or to build up the play.

Poch dominated so many big teams with 4-2-3-1 playing Alli close to Kane.

4-3-3 is not a magic formula and even if we drop Bruno deeper, it won't solve anything (well I disagree with any post that says he is a second striker). It's not the formation, it's how the coach set up. We don't play as a team, we don't build the play as a team. We are more direct team (not long ball but direct), we look for quick forward passes than slowing building the game.

This 100%

It doesn't matter what actual formation we play. Creating an extra man during build up is the same as creating overloads and quick switches on attack. You need a bit of dynamic movement and a set plan (dare I say patterns of play?).

Most teams for instance have someone (winger / striker) threatening to make the run in behind against a high line, so that drags CBs deeper and 1-2 players who understand space making quick runs deep at the right time and offering an extra option. City's 3-0 goal again Arsenal was a perfect example - Torres makes a run deep, Mari doesn't go with him, gets found by the GK and the press is beaten.

Most of the time we end up like the picture below (okay maybe with one of #6 / #8 more central / deeper but can't be bothered to go edit the pic). DDG -> Maguire on the ball with no options about to get pressed by their #9. The two options are to go wide to Shaw (a press trigger because the ball is on the touchline) or to Lindelof --> AwB resulting in the same problem.

If Maguire manages to hold off the pressure from the opposition #9 and actually makes that pass to Fred in the middle, that's another press trigger because he's not very physical and can't hold it up. It doesn't matter who the player is - it could be Pogba instead of Fred (and hence the complaints of Pogba dwelling on the ball too much in the middle). You need some more dynamism and creativity even when building up.

It starts with having a keeper that can actually play the ball - that gives a natural extra man during build up but we don't have that. Failing that it's upto Ole / Carrick / McKenna to figure out how to get that overload instead of everyone being static in their assigned positions just waiting to get pressed. Mendy / Navas are hardly ball playing keepers and Chelsea, PSG do just fine in that regard.