How we fail in our build-up and why

Adisa

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At no point in that gif do any of our forwards and Bruno provide a passing option. To move the ball forward in that situation, it's either a pass to Bissaka or an hopeful punt forward. Between midfield and attack is a sea of yellow shirts. Literally impossible to build up play and people wonder why we can't sustain attacks.
These are not individual performance problems.
 
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RedStarUnited

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To be fair in that move if Pogba plays in Bruno instead, we are in. Wolves defensive line is bad and there is plenty of space in behind.




Look where Bruno and Cavani end up.

 

Ole's screen

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I think Sancho was supposed to drop in that situation there. That's what Pogba plays and I've seen us do that motion with Pogba left and McTominay deep against Leeds (for the first goal). Its what you'd call a structured play. Sancho was just a little slow to make that run. Why are we acting as though that behavior (where every forward is making a run in behind) is the plan rather than an error in execution?
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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We'll get nowhere unless this improves.

You could put Xavi in the midfield and we'd still have issues.
 

NZT-One

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To be fair in that move if Pogba plays in Bruno instead, we are in. Wolves defensive line is bad and there is plenty of space in behind.




Look where Bruno and Cavani end up.

You are right, but I am pretty sure nobody is advocating us avoiding situations like that when we have players like Pogba and Bruno who are quite capable of hitting those passes. The issue is, that we seemingly have nothing else in the quiver unfortunately. We don't need all players to make a darting run in the same direction, because it gives Pogba only one option. And everybody knows that and will be somehow prepared. Of course, having Ronaldo it is like a numbers game, execute that move 50 times per match and you will score 2 or 3 three times. But the better teams won't let you to that so often, instead they will either pushing back to take away space to run into or they will aggressively go for Pogba to prevent the pass.
 

Adisa

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To be fair in that move if Pogba plays in Bruno instead, we are in. Wolves defensive line is bad and there is plenty of space in behind.




Look where Bruno and Cavani end up.

Both players end up free because the Wolves defense has shifted towards the ball. Even if Pogba had played in Bruno's direction, chances are he would still have lost the ball and we are defending while outnumbered again.
Look at the other top teams, their midfielders are rarely outnumbered or isolated. City's fullbacks even invert to ensure it's never the case. For us, its a common theme and why our turnover rate is far higher than our rivals.
 

E-mal

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To be fair in that move if Pogba plays in Bruno instead, we are in. Wolves defensive line is bad and there is plenty of space in behind.




Look where Bruno and Cavani end up.

Not really, the best pass was to play in front if their defence.
The pass you highlighted is way more riskier and higher percentage.
That space in front of their defence is were Bruno should be and not playing aheadnof our centre forward.
I was properly pissed with Bruno today and have been for a long time. He is way more selfish with his runs.
 

Cloud7

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Coaching has been an issue for so long, and the more quality we add it becomes more and more glaringly obvious.
With the squad we have now the manager can't hide behind quality of player anymore. For three years our fanbase has used that as justification for the poor performances, rather than looking at the coaching and management. Our squad is brilliant now, so let's see how we do.
 

Ayoba

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Most of the time Bruno basically plays as a 2nd striker. We desperately need someone to come deep and link with the midfield. Maybe Sancho could do that role? I don't know.


Unfortunately I think this problem will just be exacerbated with Ronaldo. I'm not slating him btw, I just think that we need to solve our midfield problems or we will be seeing the same issues we saw today, regardless of who we play as our front 3.
 
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Kag

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Our central midfield consists of a forward and a halfwit. What do you really expect?

When our central midfield is populated by two players who actually understand what the job entails then we’ll start to see the benefit. The chuff about coaching is exactly that: chuff. You aren’t coaching that midfield we started today. You’d be better served criticising Ole for putting Pogba back there. A big mistake.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Our central midfield consists of a forward and a halfwit. What do you really expect?

When our central midfield is populated by two players who actually understand what the job entails then we’ll start to see the benefit. The chuff about coaching is exactly that: chuff. You aren’t coaching that midfield we started today. You’d be better served criticising Ole for putting Pogba back there. A big mistake.
I'm not a big Fred fan, but people are scapegoating him far too much.

Half-wit? come on :lol:
 

Kag

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I'm not a big Fred fan, but people are scapegoating him far too much.

Half-wit? come on :lol:
A full-wit?

Lad is a clown. There are so many midfielders in the league who wouldn’t play like such a colossal tadger in that midfield pivot.
 

VanDeBank

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Wolves played it exactly like that Milan game where we couldn't get out of our own half. Let the CBs have the ball, instantly press the midfielders so they potato it back, Maguire either passes it back and forth in his box or he hoofs it.

De Gea - not a sweeper keeper. He's not involved at all
Shaw - Good player on the ball, but building out from the back isn't his strength
Maguire - Decent ish, but nothing special compared to most elite CBs
Varane - Not his strength. If he was great at it, he'd be VVD pre injury
AWB - Worse than Shaw

Pogba - Fantastic, but he needs freedom to thrive. Ole hasn't built the team with him in mind or we'd have a DM by now
Fred - Okay, I guess
McTominay - goes hiding so he can't receive the ball
VDB - Just hot potatoes it back, unskilled
Matic - Guy must be very unreliable with receiving the ball in midfield, because he always drops deep

He's been backed and has had time. The squad he's built doesn't match the way he's instructing his team to play.

He has a lot of redeeming qualities, but tactically he's clueless. I'm still pissed he didn't yell at the team in Istanbul in an EMPTY stadium to mark players on set pieces or for Shaw to feck off out of the oppo box on set pieces, because he only scores one goal every 3 years.

The last piece of the puzzle is a better manager. We should get someone who's pragmatic so he can use the existing squad. Zidane perhaps?
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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A full-wit?

Lad is a clown. There are so many midfielders in the league who wouldn’t play like such a colossal tadger in that midfield pivot.
The same player who starts for Brazil? We regularly bypass the midfield with how we play. It's not going to be a position where someone will stand out and excel. Even Xavi(who obviously is miles better) would have some games where he looked a bit off.

I don't think Fred is great, but he's not bad as you're making him out to be.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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Wolves played it exactly like that Milan game where we couldn't get out of our own half. Let the CBs have the ball, instantly press the midfielders so they potato it back, Maguire either passes it back and forth in his box or he hoofs it.

De Gea - not a sweeper keeper. He's not involved at all
Shaw - Good player on the ball, but building out from the back isn't his strength
Maguire - Decent ish, but average on the ball compared to most elite CBs
Varane - Average on the ball. If he was great at it, he'd be VVD pre injury
AWB - Worse than Shaw

Pogba - Fantastic, but he needs freedom to thrive. Ole hasn't build the team with him CM in mind or we'd have a DM by now
Fred - Okay, I guess
McTominay - goes hiding so he can't receive the ball
VDB - Just hot potatoes it back, not a skilled passer or dribbler
Matic - Guy must be very unreliable with receiving the ball in midfield, because he always drops deep

He's been backed and has had time. The squad he's built doesn't match the way he's instructing his team to play.

He has a lot of redeeming qualities, but tactically he's clueless. I'm still pissed he didn't yell at the team in Istanbul in an EMPTY stadium to mark players on set pieces or for Shaw to feck off out of the oppo box on set pieces, because he only scores one goal every 3 years.

The last piece of the puzzle is a better manager. We should get someone who's pragmatic so he can use the existing squad. Zidane perhaps?
We're not sacking Ole during the season to bring in a manager.

Zidane is a great manager, but he's pretty similar to Ole in the regard that he also doesn't really employ a positional play style. He's excellent at man-management, but his football style is more adaptive and not constrained to a set philosophy (similar to Ole again).
 

Marwood

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The above is an awful bit of play.

What I would say is that it's just an isolated clip. The rest of the game wasn't great either but that probably is the worst example.

As well as too many making the same run a big part of the problem is Fred getting rid of the ball as soon as he could. If he'd received the ball, got himself facing foward, asked a few to make themselves available, it's suddenly a very different situation.

Then obviously an awful ball from Pogba, when a return pass to Fred might have been better.

So it's both. A structural problem and the two lads in midfield doing some shoddy stuff.
 

E-mal

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Most of the time Bruno basically plays as a 2nd striker. We desperately need someone to come deep and link with the midfield. Maybe Sancho could do that role? I don't know.


Unfortunately I think this problem will just be exacerbated with Ronaldo. I'm not slating him btw, I just think that we need to solve our midfield problems or we will be seeing the same issues we saw today, regardless of who we play as our front 3.
Is just so obvious for everyone that has eyes to see that Bruno is a large part of the problem we have in midfield.
 
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NewGlory

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So this is something that Ole's former coach at Molde both sees and can explain, but all of Ole's coaches at Man United are completely clueless about? Weird
 

VanDeBank

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We're not sacking Ole during the season to bring in a manager.

Zidane is a great manager, but he's pretty similar to Ole in the regard that he also doesn't really employ a positional play style. He's excellent at man-management, but his football style is more adaptive and not constrained to a set philosophy (similar to Ole again).
I never said we should sack him mid season. He deserves to get a chance at the full season because I see the improvement and am grateful for what he's done so far. I'm just skeptical he can push us further.

I'm sure Zidane would yell that there are unmarked players on set pieces in an empty stadium (or he'd have prepared them better). Like I said a manager with a very rigid style like the trendy Germans would require an overhaul of the squad. Zidane isn't tactically clueless, has actually won things recently and is pragmatic in his approach.
 

SAFMUTD

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With the squad we have now the manager can't hide behind quality of player anymore. For three years our fanbase has used that as justification for the poor performances, rather than looking at the coaching and management. Our squad is brilliant now, so let's see how we do.
Be patient, they will say we need a new CDM, a bigger squad, or whatever. It's not about reasoning it's about setting excuses so the coaching staff is not held accountable.

3 bloody years and we still have the same glaring weakness, can't play from the back when pressed, can't control the midfield without playing two defensive players, don't have clear attacking patterns, etc

It's all there, the better players you have the more you'll get bailed by them but at the end of the line it won't be enough when facing squads with similar quality who are properly coached.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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I never said we should sack him mid season. He deserves to get a chance at the full season because I see the improvement and am grateful for what he's done so far. I'm just skeptical he can push us further.

I'm sure Zidane would yell that there are unmarked players on set pieces in an empty stadium (or he'd have prepared them better). Like I said a manager with a very rigid style like the trendy Germans would require an overhaul of the squad. Zidane isn't tactically clueless, has actually won things recently and is pragmatic in his approach.
I don't think Ole is amazing, but he's definitely not tactically clueless either.
 

MrSingh2002

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I've seen it for months and months. We end up with 4 players in a line back to goal!

I know the players themselves shouldn't be so thick but surely the coach controls how they move too.

Fergie developed into a coach that liked short sharp interplay in and around the box. That's definitely one of the things missing from Oles tactics.
 

E-mal

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I think Sancho was supposed to drop in that situation there. That's what Pogba plays and I've seen us do that motion with Pogba left and McTominay deep against Leeds (for the first goal). Its what you'd call a structured play. Sancho was just a little slow to make that run. Why are we acting as though that behavior (where every forward is making a run in behind) is the plan rather than an error in execution?
The more reasonable and common thing was for Buno to drop and not make thesame run that Cavani was doing. That way he gives Pogba more passing option.
Of course it could be varied with either Sancho or Greenwood dropping.
We need a sound DM but at thesame time we have to change our set up, Bruno has to be more conservative.
 

passing-wind

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I've seen it for months and months. We end up with 4 players in a line back to goal!

I know the players themselves shouldn't be so thick but surely the coach controls how they move too.

Fergie developed into a coach that liked short sharp interplay in and around the box. That's definitely one of the things missing from Oles tactics.
It happens too frequently from the players for it to be a blunder. It's 100% on the manager and coaching staff. I'm glad these types of threads are objectively critiquing the team. I said last year that if Ole doesn't improve his tactical side of play it will get to a point where the team is so good personnel wise, that he will hinder the players if he doesn't utilise them as an attacking unit.

Carrick / McKenna at this point should be replaced if this is to continue.
 

SAFMUTD

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We need a world-class player in midfield that comes and singlehandedly fixes our midfield issues.

Just like Bruno fixed our attack.

It's clear our current coaching it's incapable to do, so we better pray we hit gold with some signing that can mask our coaching inefficiency.

At this point is about getting a world-class squad that can go out and play by themselves, Ole and the coaching staff can do the "keep them happy" job.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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We need a world-class player in midfield that comes and singlehandedly fixes our midfield issues.

Just like Bruno fixed our attack.

It's clear our current coaching it's incapable to do, so we better pray we hit gold with some signing that can mask our coaching inefficiency.
I don't think a midfielder like that is attainable.
 

InfiniteBoredom

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We are trying to play Fergie ball, specifically the zombie football Fergie ball where our midfield would shit itself when pressed and we lived on Scholes or Carrick pinging it long for the wingers to run onto. The problem is our right wing even after signing Sancho is still dogshit so the opponent would just overload our left, nick the ball off us and cut through our midfield like a knife through butter.

Football in 2021 doesnt work like that anymore, no CL winning team in recent memory have done it without a damn good midfield, even Liverpool. What will happen is Ronaldo will score from a bunch of crosses in a few tight games against minnows but there will be just as many off days when that wont work, and we will get outplayed and outclassed by other top teams.
 

NZT-One

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The above is an awful bit of play.

What I would say is that it's just an isolated clip. The rest of the game wasn't great either but that probably is the worst example.

As well as too many making the same run a big part of the problem is Fred getting rid of the ball as soon as he could. If he'd received the ball, got himself facing foward, asked a few to make themselves available, it's suddenly a very different situation.

Then obviously an awful ball from Pogba, when a return pass to Fred might have been better.

So it's both. A structural problem and the two lads in midfield doing some shoddy stuff.
You will find these sort of clips in a lot of matches. It is our plan A - win the ball, give it to Bruno/Pogba while all forwards try to make use of their pace and Bruno/Pogba can find them. It isn't the worst plan in the world but a) our opponents know it by now and are prepared and b) we have to have a plan B. The scene in the clips shows the plan A. Call it hollywood passes, call it transitional play whatever. Surpass midfield by playing it fast, direct and vertical.

Regarding Fred: I think, you are wrong here - Fred is a harrier, a presser. Not a creator or ball carrier. Of course we want him to give the ball as soon as possible to someone, who is more capable. He also provides so much workrate, that he helps to close gaps and to connect the team by being a viable passing option on both end of the pitch and by taking positions when other players making forward runs. Fred isn't the problem - I am pretty sure any midfielder tasked with Freds job will struggle because in all top teams, the teams act as one (as good as they can) and support each other.
 

VanDeBank

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I don't think Ole is amazing, but he's definitely not tactically clueless either.
So why then is he so adamant on building out from the back that we play tiki taka on our own half vs Milan (and don't hoof it once), yet he's buying players that aren't good at building out from the back? Maguire, Varane, AWB, VDB? And how come we're now hoofing it vs Wolves without a target man up top (our front 3 was Sancho, Greenwood and James). At least put Martial on if you've instructed Maguire he's allowed to hoof it (which he clearly wasn't in that Milan game).

I'm not buying the "scrappy win" narrative, these two performances weren't those of a title winning team. Our scrappy wins didn't amount to anything last season and Ole's spent another 150m since.

What has he done that makes you think he's tactically adept? Putting James on vs an attacking fullback, really? Opposition team managers are outclassing Ole and his 2 billion squad with basic stuff, except for Bielsa trying to play 5 dimensional chess at OT.
 

Eddy_JukeZ

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So why then is he so adamant on building out from the back that we play tiki taka on our own half vs Milan (and don't hoof it once), yet he's buying players that aren't good at building out from the back? Maguire, Varane, AWB, VDB?

I'm not buying the "scrappy win" shit, these two performances weren't those of a title winning team. Our scrappy wins didn't amount to anything last season and Ole's spent another 150m since.

What has he done that makes you think he's tactically adept? Putting James on vs an attacking fullback, really?
I never said he was tactically perfect.

Also, I'm not convinced Ole is a title winning manager either, but tactically clueless is hyperbole.
 

VanDeBank

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I never said he was tactically perfect.

Also, I'm not convinced Ole is a title winning manager either, but tactically clueless is hyperbole.
Yes, it's definitely hyperbole. But I've seen very little to suggest he's even average at it. Which isn't really something that can win a trophy nowadays in my opinion.
 

Carolina Red

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The lack of progress in our build-up and transition play has been the most frustrating part of OGS-era in my opinion. During the transfer window our attention is on new players in but it feels like we fail to realize the potential of our squad as long as we fail to build a proper structure to dominate the oppostion and sustain attacks. I really like OGS and I think he has done a great job with rebuilding us after Mourinho, but the fact that we still struggle this much after almost three years is a huge issue for him. We have seen someone like Potter implementing a better buildup in a shorter time with far inferior players.

Eric Laurie, a coach at OGS former club, Molde, made a good thread about it. He is insightful and worth following if these types of topics interest you. He is quite "commercial", meaning he keeps it simple and "entertaining", but informative (typical american in other words). Check out his thread below:


He also gives a mention to Maram AlBaharnas thread about our passing. I'm not familiar with her, but I think it was a good read.

Good stuff!
 

smi11ie

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Dion called it on MOTD. You can't have 4 players looking to get in behind. It leaves the midfield 2 with no passing options other than a ball in behind. Bruno should be closer to the midfield. Sancho and/or Greenwood should be a little deeper.
 

Schnappo

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We need a world-class player in midfield that comes and singlehandedly fixes our midfield issues.

Just like Bruno fixed our attack.

It's clear our current coaching it's incapable to do, so we better pray we hit gold with some signing that can mask our coaching inefficiency.

At this point is about getting a world-class squad that can go out and play by themselves, Ole and the coaching staff can do the "keep them happy" job.
Who?
 

Dominos

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To be fair in that move if Pogba plays in Bruno instead, we are in. Wolves defensive line is bad and there is plenty of space in behind.




Look where Bruno and Cavani end up.

It's really not that simple as drawing a line and saying this pass = goal. It's a low percentage play, nothing wrong with trying it occassionally but it's missing the point.

We don't need 4 players making the same run, there is no forward pass available other than the hollywood ball over the top. It's about providing passing options for the man on the ball. It's a perfect example of why we're consistently failing to control games, maintain possession, build from the back and reduce the amount of turnovers where the opposition can counter. It also leaves us horribly exposed when we do lose the ball as the gap between the players is too big and the midfield is outnumbered.
 

sullydnl

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The telling thing to note when you're watching us play is just how often a player is already isolated or under heavy pressure when they receive the ball.

That has nothing to do with their quality as players, as being bad at football doesn't magically dissapear teammates who are supposed to be near you and replace them with opposition players. Similarly, City players don't consistently find themselves with triangles of players to give easy passes to because of some innate gift on their part.

Obviously once you put players in those more difficult positions the weaker ones will falter. But even better players will struggle.

Hell even without going into forensic detail, we look undercoached compared to the likes of City and Chelsea who (not coincidentally) are the two favourites for the title. The hope in some quarters seems to be that we don't actually need to be as thoroughly coached as those other teams and if we just sign enough good players and "let them play" we'll magically match better organised sides because they'll sort it out themselves.

At the moment we look like a team that needs someone to do what Tuchel did so quickly after replacing Lampard and drill the players we have into a better unit.