How we fail in our build-up and why

Watching us trying (and failing) to progress the ball today is pretty painful.

Structurally, we're really quite poor in the build-up phase and are making it very easy for Wolves to cut out passing lanes. The players don't appear to know what they are supposed to do, when to come short, when to go long, where to position themselves etc. All very frustrating.
 
Will never tire of saying it. The structure is the issue. Signings won't solve this.
The mistakes are happening on the training pitch.
We are outnumbered all over the park, the players struggle to pass because we don't create enough passing lanes, so we are easy to press.
This side will not challenge for anything.
 
Bruno not making himself available and when he is available attempting his stupid Hollywood passes or miscontrolling it. If ole had any brains he would fix this.
 
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Adisa said:
Will never tire of saying it. The structure is the issue. Signings won't solve this.
The mistakes are happening on the training pitch.
We are outnumbered all over the park, the players struggle to pass because we don't create enough passing lanes, so we are easy to press.
This side will not challenge for anything.
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Na, just gotta trust the process innit. Arteta with a far, far better squad.
 
We depend on center backs to orchestrate our passing for the attacks and not our midfielders. Most of the time our midfielders receive the ball from our center backs they end up passing it back to the defenders putting more pressure on them without any initiative to move it laterally, let alone carry it forward.
 
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Looks like we want to try and stretch the play, with Greenwood playing on the shoulder of their CB's and Sancho/James both staying high and wide.

Wolves instead move their whole team up and down the pitch much more compact so we are outnumbered all the fecking time
 
Adisa said:
Will never tire of saying it. The structure is the issue. Signings won't solve this.
The mistakes are happening on the training pitch.
We are outnumbered all over the park, the players struggle to pass because we don't create enough passing lanes, so we are easy to press.
This side will not challenge for anything.
Click to expand...
What signings will do though is paper over the cracks by winning matches. It's why there's so much talk about individual brilliance getting us through.

Varane has already proven his worth, we probably concede without him today.
 
We just need to look at the space between the players to see where the team fails and our supposed playmaker playing as a support striker almost all the time.
 
We are terribly unprepared for this game. Players have no passing choices or bump into each other's spaces.

One of the worst halves I've seen us play, tactically.

You can blame Fred and Pogba for this and yes, they've been wank so far, but this is on Ole.

Hope we win somehow.
 
Tomuś said:
We are terribly unprepared for this game. Players have no passing choices or bump into each other's spaces.

One of the worst halves I've seen us play, tactically.

You can blame Fred and Pogba for this and yes, they've been wank so far, but this is on Ole.

Hope we win somehow.
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I wouldn't blame Fred or pogba. Both are being asked to do roles they are uncomfortable with.

Pogba and Bruno in the same midfield will never work, though if we want any hope of it working, we literally need someone like Declan Rice. Someone who is very strong defensively, sits, closes down space in front of the defence, and is just very safe with his passing. Doesn't have to be creative. I don't want them running with the ball. Just fecking sit and protect and do nothing else. It's literally the only hope we'd ever have of a Bruno and Pogba midfield working.
 
El Jefe said:
What signings will do though is paper over the cracks by winning matches. It's why there's so much talk about individual brilliance getting us through.

Varane has already proven his worth, we probably concede without him today.
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A side papering over cracks wont challenge for the title. Buying players to solve every problem is unsustainable. The first thing a coach has to do is instill a structure and a way of playing that you build on.
The way things are going, we will always be less than the sum of our parts.
 
Adisa said:
Will never tire of saying it. The structure is the issue. Signings won't solve this.
The mistakes are happening on the training pitch.
We are outnumbered all over the park, the players struggle to pass because we don't create enough passing lanes, so we are easy to press.
This side will not challenge for anything.
Click to expand...
Yup, drop a top class holding midfielder in to this team and he still has no player within 10 yards to play a pass to. No different from last season or the season before.
 
Adisa said:
A side papering over cracks wont challenge for the title. Buying players to solve every problem is unsustainable. The first thing a coach has to do is instill a structure and a way of playing that you build on.
The way things are going, we will always be less than the sum of our parts.
Click to expand...
Is Ole worried about his position that he won't even try to get in new coaches in the staff who can try to improve us. Ole is never going to be a good coach. At least there will be improvement.
 
I remember back when Ole got the job he said he believe no United team should allow his opponents out run them, and that's how he got many wins at the beginning of his tenure. Them injureds start comming in and he change to the type of gameplay we have now. I though that was gonna change the moment when we got a squad that we can rotated. We have that now. Why are we getting out run all the time?

Come on Ole use the squad and get this team moving the tempo up. Out running the opposition and rotating to keep this squad fresh
 
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NK86 said:
Is Ole worried about his position that he won't even try to get in new coaches in the staff who can try to improve us. Ole is never going to be a good coach. At least there will be improvement.
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What coaches is he going to bring? Are we meant to go up and nab Klopp, Tuchel or Guardiola's coaches and say to them - "so lads, just do whatever they were asking you to do".

The coaches at those clubs are just an extension of each of those managers. They're nothing more than average without each of them.
 
Tomuś said:
We are terribly unprepared for this game. Players have no passing choices or bump into each other's spaces.

One of the worst halves I've seen us play, tactically.

You can blame Fred and Pogba for this and yes, they've been wank so far, but this is on Ole.

Hope we win somehow.
Click to expand...

I honestly don't think the individual players are the problem - I mean, yes, fielding two players in midfield who are both known to be careless with the ball, against a side that presses and counterattacks as quickly as Wolves do, is pretty stupid - however, the real problems here are structural.

We're not compact and don't know how to build up/progress the ball from deep.
 
Skills said:
What coaches is he going to bring? Are we meant to go up and nab Klopp, Tuchel or Guardiola's coaches and say to them - "so lads, just do whatever they were asking you to do".

The coaches at those clubs are just an extension of each of those managers. They're nothing more than average without each of them.
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Yes, exactly. It should start by Ole identifying the issue, defining in what sort of way he wants it solved, realizing that no-one in his staff can bring the required tactical thinking (if that's indeed the case), and then looking for someone that does. If any of that is missing, nothing useful will happen on this front.
 
Cheimoon said:
Yes, exactly. It should start by Ole identifying the issue, defining in what sort of way he wants it solved, realizing that no-one in his staff can bring the required tactical thinking (if that's indeed the case), and then looking for someone that does. If any of that is missing, nothing useful will happen on this front.
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But the thing is though, our issues are to do with things that are fundamentally looked after by the head coach of the club. Any top team has the ball 55-60% of the game.

You can bring in specialists to solve specific issues such as set pieces, pressing even defensive shape. There's literally no manager in modern who gives away the role to coach his team's attacking principles to one of his assistants. It doesn't work like that.
 
Ole is now holding back a very good team in the right hands, if we can swap him out for zidane it would truly be a great summer.

It's just ti same old problems over and over again with every season under ole, we ain't winning or challenging for anything meaningful under him no matter how much he keeps on spending to help make up for his poor managerial ability.
 
You really wonder what we do all week in training. We can add great players, but we will struggle as a team
 
You only have to look at the midfield players we have bought, and how they have started brilliant and how they have ended up like Tom Cleverly, this is down to the midfield coach, the players seem scared to pass forward .
 
Adisa said:
A side papering over cracks wont challenge for the title. Buying players to solve every problem is unsustainable. The first thing a coach has to do is instill a structure and a way of playing that you build on.
The way things are going, we will always be less than the sum of our parts.
Click to expand...
Couldn't agree more.

Today was another example of papering over the cracks and while we got the 3 points, like you said, I am not banking on a title challenge with Ole here.
 
Skills said:
What coaches is he going to bring? Are we meant to go up and nab Klopp, Tuchel or Guardiola's coaches and say to them - "so lads, just do whatever they were asking you to do".

The coaches at those clubs are just an extension of each of those managers. They're nothing more than average without each of them.
Click to expand...
Are these the only managers whose teams play decent football? There must definitely be coaches available outside their staff who can drill our team in pressing, movement, tactics. Let Ole just man-manage.

Currently our main coaching staff has a well past it Phelan (who only got the job as Ole got the temp gig and he wanted to bring in known faces), a completely untested Carrick and McKenna. If we cannot find coaches to improve on them without having to raid our primary rivals, then we are truly fecked.
 
Skills said:
But the thing is though, our issues are to do with things that are fundamentally looked after by the head coach of the club. Any top team has the ball 55-60% of the game.

You can bring in specialists to solve specific issues such as set pieces, pressing even defensive shape. There's literally no manager in modern who gives away the role to coach his team's attacking principles to one of his assistants. It doesn't work like that.
Click to expand...
What are you basing this on? I don't know the details, but apparently Lijnders for example has a lot of input at Liverpool. And previously that guy that left and then claimed Klopp has him to thank for almost everything (can't remember his name; and that was probably an exaggeration, of course). Didn't Ferguson also get a lot of important tactical input from his coaches?

It depends from one person to another of course, but if Ole and his current staff see that there are tactical puzzles they can't solve, they should bring in someone that can help out with that side. (A coach, not a player that's good enough to paper over the cracks.)
 
NK86 said:
Are these the only managers whose teams play decent football? There must definitely be coaches available outside their staff who can drill our team in pressing, movement, tactics. Let Ole just man-manage.

Currently our main coaching staff has a well past it Phelan (who only got the job as Ole got the temp gig and he wanted to bring in known faces), a completely untested Carrick and McKenna. If we cannot find coaches to improve on them without having to raid our primary rivals, then we are truly fecked.
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Carrick has been involved with the last couple of managers in which our midfield has gone to crap, i know he was a forum favorite but hes either a crap coach, or is trying to sabotage the managers as he wants the job.
We have bought not poor to average type players but a lot of quality world class ones that seem after a few months seem to be playing negative football which can be only down to the coaching.
All the players do not become rubbish overnight after 3-4 seasons of being good ,this seems to be the case with all midfield players we sign.
 
Cheimoon said:
What are you basing this on? I don't know the details, but apparently Lijnders for example has a lot of input at Liverpool. And previously that guy that left and then claimed Klopp has him to thank for almost everything (can't remember his name; and that was probably an exaggeration, of course). Didn't Ferguson also get a lot of important tactical input from his coaches?

It depends from one person to another of course, but if Ole and his current staff see that there are tactical puzzles they can't solve, they should bring in someone that can help out with that side. (A coach, not a player that's good enough to paper over the cracks.)
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I think, that is what many people are being scared of: that Ole and staff do not identify that as an issue. I mean, it makes for great watchable games when we try to attack as fast as we do but seeing Pogba and Bruno go for one high lob ball into the attack after another, is painful to watch when what is needed is to keep the ball to tire out the opposition today. Wolves had 1.8 xg (understat) against our 0.94. Possession was a bit more than fifty-fifty in our favour. We shouldn't just walk away from matches like that as if it is job well done.
 
leont said:
You only have to look at the midfield players we have bought, and how they have started brilliant and how they have ended up like Tom Cleverly, this is down to the midfield coach, the players seem scared to pass forward .
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I think this is correct. I genuinely don't think we're far off Chelsea or City. Chelsea looked terrible under Lampard and suddenly under solid coaching from Tuchel they look incredibly well organised. We look like a bunch of people doing their stuff separately, each to their own whims and fancies.
 
At times we look like Arsenal with difference of having actual defense and brilliance of one of our attackers.

Passing in the first half was almost championship level. We enter matches like we play against prime Barca. So much nervousness and just lacking someone to calm things down.
 
Adisa said:
Will never tire of saying it. The structure is the issue. Signings won't solve this.
The mistakes are happening on the training pitch.
We are outnumbered all over the park, the players struggle to pass because we don't create enough passing lanes, so we are easy to press.
This side will not challenge for anything.
Click to expand...
I think for the first time many of the usually very vocal Ole In have started to accept this now. It is early season and I like to wait until 5 games in (new signings, fitness etc) but we look exactly as we did last season and we were outplayed today.

If we could press well, all would be ok but we still can’t after 3 seasons.
 
Will be very difficult for Ronaldo because all the ball that arrive from the back, are dirty ball, unplayable balls

He will need to move a lot and to come back in the mid
 
Adisa said:
Will never tire of saying it. The structure is the issue. Signings won't solve this.
The mistakes are happening on the training pitch.
We are outnumbered all over the park, the players struggle to pass because we don't create enough passing lanes, so we are easy to press.
This side will not challenge for anything.
Click to expand...

I've been banging this drum for ages!

If we play badly against the top teams then there could be an argument that City/Liverpool/Barcelona etc have better players than us but we are struggling against mid table teams and couldn't even beat Villareal!

That's not personnel...that is tactical structure that is damaging us and THAT is on the management team.

Today in the Wolves game they had 5 players in the middle (their forward moving back when we had possession). That leaves Pogba and Fred isolated. Our attacking 4 might be making runs but they're doing so at the top end of the pitch where it would take a Hollywood pass to reach them. When either Pogba or Fred have the ball they are being pressed whilst the other is being marked so there's nowhere to go. It's clear as day to see.
 
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sullydnl said:


The point being the massive gap in the middle.
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I was desperately trying to remember this minute and ask @GifLord
How is a team this badly organised supposed to create?
Can't people see any problem? I feel like I am shouting at clouds. These are structural issues.
It's not even just about creating. Any turnover in that situation and we are in serious trouble with our midfield seriously outnumbered.
 
This is why I don't think we'll win the league as long as Pep/Tuchel and Klopp are around - too much of an ask for Ole to outlast better-drilled teams over the course of the season.
 
Adisa said:
I was desperately trying to remember this minute and ask @GifLord
How is a team this badly organised supposed to create?
Can't people see any problem? I feel like I am shouting at clouds. These are structural issues.
It's not even just about creating. Any turnover in that situation and we are in serious trouble with our midfield seriously outnumbered.
Click to expand...
 
sullydnl said:


The point being the massive gap in the middle.
Click to expand...

This right there pissed me off so much. We struggled to play through midfield, so have Pogba launch a long pass. Every forward makes a run and anticipates the long pass. Awful football. Awful management. I have been Ole in for a long time, but I'm getting tired of our awful football almost every week. People keep saying we need better players. This will keep happening every season. Not every coach can get every player he wants. He sets the team up properly and works with what he has.

Playing this bad against midtable teams isn't acceptable. Our players are way better than the performances they're producing.
 
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