I feel like most people on this thread are seeing the real issue. Most other fans are not and are blaming Fred. A new midfielder isn't going to change anything. Our midfielders are being exposed and set up to fail. Our forward line (including Bruno) needs to be deeper and make themselves available to our defenders and pivot players for short pass options. This has been an issue for too long to continue to blame the players.
How we fail in our build-up and why
- Thread starter andersj
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I doubt our coaching staff would ever do this, but I would try and bring Shaw more into the midfield during build-up phases to gain a numerical superiority in that area.
When Rashford gets back, you'd also likely free up space for him out wide and get him isolated vs a full-back more-often.
Shaw's comfortable with the ball at his feet and is a good ball-carrier and we'll likely outnumber the opposition in that area making the build-up easier.
I'd try and push AWB further up to lessen his participation in build-up as well.
Shape could look something like this
3-2 shape in build-up instead of the 3-1 we often do, but I doubt we'd ever try something like this.
When Rashford gets back, you'd also likely free up space for him out wide and get him isolated vs a full-back more-often.
Shaw's comfortable with the ball at his feet and is a good ball-carrier and we'll likely outnumber the opposition in that area making the build-up easier.
I'd try and push AWB further up to lessen his participation in build-up as well.
Shape could look something like this
3-2 shape in build-up instead of the 3-1 we often do, but I doubt we'd ever try something like this.
Three years in and the right movements/positions should be second nature. This time that could be used training that is being completely wasted.
I thought we hired that Chelsea coach Eric Ramsey who’s supposedly good at coaching players to press and to build up under pressure. Hopefully we’re not just using him exclusively as a set-piece coach.
This is something like one half of what City does with their inverted fullbacks, isn’t it? Think one argument I’ve seen against it is that it doesn’t take advantage of Shaw’s ability to work the flank.I doubt our coaching staff would ever do this, but I would try and bring Shaw more into the midfield during build-up phases to gain a numerical superiority in that area.
When Rashford gets back, you'd also likely free up space for him out wide and get him isolated vs a full-back more-often.
Shaw's comfortable with the ball at his feet and is a good ball-carrier and we'll likely outnumber the opposition in that area making the build-up easier.
I'd try and push AWB further up to lessen his participation in build-up as well.
Shape could look something like this
3-2 shape in build-up instead of the 3-1 we often do, but I doubt we'd ever try something like this.
Yeah it's what City does pretty much.
Shaw's work on the flank is great. I think he can do a good job in midfield as well too. It would free up more space for Rashford out wide as well.
I doubt we'd ever do it, but it would be interesting to experiment with it.
Hard to disagree we struggle to build up play. Someone else needs to drop deep.
Simply, it's poor coaching. Not surprising if your coaches have never coached before at this level. How about if your Manager has equally never managed at this level too?
Yeah I doubt so too, though we desperately need to do something about how we set up in possession. But by now it seems pretty clear that Ole doesn’t care too much about possession. I suspect he wants us to play a little like Liverpool, but he doesn’t have anywhere near the same players or coaching setup that they have. And much like many fans, I believe he subscribes to the old-school SAF style of putting great attackers on the pitch, getting the ball to them as quickly as possible and letting them work their magic.
edit: also don’t think Rashford is really a wide player in the mould of Sterling/Sane, so not sure if this would work either. It might end up with Shaw and Rashford trying to occupy the same spaces and no one keeping width.
Completely agree with these points.
@noodlehair this is very reminiscent of your zombie football thread. This has been an issue dating back to the last few seasons of SAF 
When you don't ask questions of defenders and make them think either via movement or spacing, your build up will always be poor. At our worst we essentially play a 4-2-4 and no matter how bad/good Pogba and Fred are playing won't matter because it's incredibly hard to distribute into that sort of shape. I've said for almost 18 months now that Bruno really hurts us when he does his second striker impersonation but you get crucified by people for saying he needs to make adjustments to his game generally here. People think Pogba is so much better when he's played higher up the pitch but what they don't realize is that he is better because he's essentially a 3rd midfielder playing in the space between our DM and striker and doing the job we would normally want Bruno to do.
It's okay sometimes have Bruno high up, when we can manage to get the ball into the front four we can very quickly open teams up with one or two passes. Sometimes though we need to play the situation more, if we're struggling to get a grip on the game I'd like to see Bruno drop deeper and help us play out from the back. Also Sancho has the ability more so than our other wide forwards to do this, there were glimpses of it yesterday but there were times I thought he should have dropped deeper to offer an option.
Having a number 10 who runs beyond the striker a lot is not such a tactical conundrum that it should disrupt the entire team. It's no more unusual than a false nine or an inverted winger. Modern coaching is about getting the lads to understand what to do when other players move from their starting positions.
This is one of those threads where people see problems as they are, not simply blaming the individuals for their performance.
The goal was an example of how our attacker was 1v1 vs defender close to the box, something City do all the time. They really don't have better forwards, they just now how to make a better use of them.
Exactly, actually our game has progressed into that direction under Ole. Having effectively one midfielder is something that happens whenever we DON'T play McFred.
It wasn't an Isolated clip, we gave up the midfield around 55' when Cavani appeard. From that point every attack looked like that. Wolverhampton ragdolled us and our coaching staff didn't even try to change that, they just decided to throw in more forwards despite us not creating any chances! Cavani had 7 passes, no shots, no dribbles.
We need a midfielder but any player will struggle in that setup. The bolded part is what seems to be the plan for the team.
The goal was an example of how our attacker was 1v1 vs defender close to the box, something City do all the time. They really don't have better forwards, they just now how to make a better use of them.
Cm and gk struggle with possession of the ball, and it affects us badly. If the cm get pressure and loose the ball then it's unnecessary pressure for the team. Doesn't help if the gk keeps losing the ball after distributing it
OMG its frustrating! Bring Cavani on for 40 minutes and he gets 0 chances. None nada. Ronaldo must be trying to re-write his contract to add 'Dont blame me if I dont score with 0 chances' And Pogba will write in his if he signs 'Im not a holding midfielder!' Its so blatantly friggin obvious to everyone and their dog except our management team apparently. I think the best thing that can happen is if Pogba goes. I really dont want him to but its the only way I see Ole changing it.
Everyone just jumps on the players. But you have to ask yourself 'Why can Fred look class for Brazil and then like a donkey for us?' Why can Pogba be world class for France and also in certain games and assist 4 then the next week play sht. Why can our forwards destroy teams then struggle the next game. Up and down and up and up and down and up. Its not even buying someone. Ole could fix it with the players we have. Take off James and bring on DVB or Matic and play Pogba on the left and Sancho on the RW. Football does not work like oh Ill just add another striker and we will score. The attackers need chances.
Everyone just jumps on the players. But you have to ask yourself 'Why can Fred look class for Brazil and then like a donkey for us?' Why can Pogba be world class for France and also in certain games and assist 4 then the next week play sht. Why can our forwards destroy teams then struggle the next game. Up and down and up and up and down and up. Its not even buying someone. Ole could fix it with the players we have. Take off James and bring on DVB or Matic and play Pogba on the left and Sancho on the RW. Football does not work like oh Ill just add another striker and we will score. The attackers need chances.
We used to do this when we first returned from lockdown and arguably it’s some of the best football we have played under Ole. Shaw was tucked inside and would tend to go inside of Rashford if the opportunity wasn’t there to do so.I doubt our coaching staff would ever do this, but I would try and bring Shaw more into the midfield during build-up phases to gain a numerical superiority in that area.
When Rashford gets back, you'd also likely free up space for him out wide and get him isolated vs a full-back more-often.
Shaw's comfortable with the ball at his feet and is a good ball-carrier and we'll likely outnumber the opposition in that area making the build-up easier.
I'd try and push AWB further up to lessen his participation in build-up as well.
Shape could look something like this
3-2 shape in build-up instead of the 3-1 we often do, but I doubt we'd ever try something like this.
It was allowing him to still get forward. I’m pretty sure it was so that we could get a 433 as I’m sure at times we had Fred, Bruno and Mata as our 3 and Shaw was there to back them up. When Shaw got injured we tried it with Williams but he just couldn’t do it. I also imagine it is why there was interest in Trippier as he’s someone that I think could come inside and play the same role if Shaw wasn’t available. I doubt Bissaka, Dalot or Telles can do the same thing.
My guess is now they view Shaws attacking contribution as too valuable and fear they might lose some of it even though really I think he was better in that small period of time.
I think many Probably feel 433 gets the best out of this team as long as Bruno stops the second striker malarkey and gets in midfield, with Pogba gets his foot on the ball and they both pop it about. Use Shaw as an auxiliary LB/DM and have either Fred or McT there. Hopefully that will provide or force them to offer more passing options than the drivel that is served up now.
Strange people pointing out we had 4 men in a line up top as an example of us not knowing what we were doing yesterday.
It was obviously tactical. Playing against a back 3, Ole obviously instructed the front 4 to stay high in order to force the wing backs to defend. If the wing backs didn't drop into a back 5, which they had to in order to prevent their back 3 being outnumbered, we'd have been outnumbered in midfield.
There was an obvious logic to doing what we did. It might not have worked brilliantly but it wasn't stupid. It probably would have worked better if Fred could pass well over long distances.
It was obviously tactical. Playing against a back 3, Ole obviously instructed the front 4 to stay high in order to force the wing backs to defend. If the wing backs didn't drop into a back 5, which they had to in order to prevent their back 3 being outnumbered, we'd have been outnumbered in midfield.
There was an obvious logic to doing what we did. It might not have worked brilliantly but it wasn't stupid. It probably would have worked better if Fred could pass well over long distances.
We basicly play the old 442 that Ferguson loved to play. A formation that doesnt work anymore, as our midfield gets overrun. Bruno has to play deeper, and Pogba has to play on the LW from now on. If we dont get a new midfielder we probably have to play Mcfred there again which is not pretty but its the best we got sadly. Ronaldos number will suffer a a lot from this though as we will continue to move the ball slow from defense to attack, but at least our midfield will not get overrun from mediocre teams.
On the other side wtf just get a new midfielder and either sell Lingard and James or even Henderson is an easy sell for me now. De Gea is undropable and we got a nice back up in Heaton. Having two class keepers instead of a working midfield is pure nonsense.
On the other side wtf just get a new midfielder and either sell Lingard and James or even Henderson is an easy sell for me now. De Gea is undropable and we got a nice back up in Heaton. Having two class keepers instead of a working midfield is pure nonsense.
So our plan relied on a player to do something we are pretty sure he can't do? How is that well planned? I mean, I agree with you, the plan in itself isn't bad in all scenarios and, as you pointed out, it made some numerical sense yesterday. But we do that in most games, that is the issue of the thread. You shouldn't focus on this clip with all forwards making the same run, that is just one freezeframed situation which of course can be misleading - the issue described is, that we always go for fast, vertical passes to the forwards - no matter how the game works out. Which is an alright plan (maybe a little outdated nowadays) but we have to face the fact, that our opponents have seen that pattern now as well and the matches against Southhampton and Wolves show, that there seem to be pretty effective strategies against it.
Just pushing the blame to Fred or Matic or whoever plays there isn't going to cut it because in every other team, the midfield works together with support from the attackers, only we ask them to do the shielding on their own, the chance creating and the ball recycling. I would argue you wouldn't even make that work having two prime Gullits in your team nowadays.
Attackers (Bruno, Sancho, Greenwood) all standing in a line, waiting for Pogba to hit it over the top. Nobody dropping deep to break the lines and link play.
I think we have a few players that are a tactical headache, and fitting them into the same side is difficult. One option that I'd explore is the italy model during the euros.
Wan Bissaka drops into a 3 which gives us more security against the counter, an easier passing option and plays to his strengths and particularly, his weaknesses going forward.
Pogba (or rashford/ronaldo) finds space infield or overloads the fullback where necessary, while bruno has the licence to break forward just like Barella does for Italy. His technical ability helps us in the build up, and his pressing ability combined with mctominay and Fred are our strongest asset when we lose the ball.
We can play a high line with the pace of varane and wan Bissaka, we get the most out of maguire when he has the security to step out with the ball. We limit wan bissaka's attacking involvement. We get the most from pogba. We get more from shaw's attacking potential.
We revert to a more traditional 4-2-3-1 when out of possession if the immediate press fails.
---------Cavani---------------------
-------Pogba-------------------------Sancho
Shaw------Mctominay----Bruno-------------------
Fred
Maguire-----Varane-----Wan Bissaka
When we have the ball, Shaw is the direct threat down the left, sancho (or greenwood) holds width on the right and makes the incisive runs into the box.-------Pogba-------------------------Sancho
Shaw------Mctominay----Bruno-------------------
Fred
Maguire-----Varane-----Wan Bissaka
Wan Bissaka drops into a 3 which gives us more security against the counter, an easier passing option and plays to his strengths and particularly, his weaknesses going forward.
Pogba (or rashford/ronaldo) finds space infield or overloads the fullback where necessary, while bruno has the licence to break forward just like Barella does for Italy. His technical ability helps us in the build up, and his pressing ability combined with mctominay and Fred are our strongest asset when we lose the ball.
We can play a high line with the pace of varane and wan Bissaka, we get the most out of maguire when he has the security to step out with the ball. We limit wan bissaka's attacking involvement. We get the most from pogba. We get more from shaw's attacking potential.
We revert to a more traditional 4-2-3-1 when out of possession if the immediate press fails.
Like American football, with runners running towards the end zone while the quarter-back tries to pick them out with a Hail Mary pass.
There are two reasons for that.
A- We lack a top quality DM
B- We lack a top quality coaching/management staff
Fred/McT are clearly not good enough for the DM role which is a bit of a problem since Pogba and Bruno depend on someone to do the defensive work for them. Instead of making that top priority Ole and his mates simply try to ignore CM altogether and move the ball as quickly as possible were we hope that individual talent would bail us out. We should be dominating midfield forcing opponents to commit mistakes that we can exploit.
A- We lack a top quality DM
B- We lack a top quality coaching/management staff
Fred/McT are clearly not good enough for the DM role which is a bit of a problem since Pogba and Bruno depend on someone to do the defensive work for them. Instead of making that top priority Ole and his mates simply try to ignore CM altogether and move the ball as quickly as possible were we hope that individual talent would bail us out. We should be dominating midfield forcing opponents to commit mistakes that we can exploit.
I am sorry but I don't understand what you're saying, and I certainly do not understand what we were trying to do yesterday.
We were outnumbered and dominated in midfield, and Wolves defended comforteably. xG 0,6 xGA 1,8 tells you the story of that game. Nothing worked yesterday IMO but maybe I'm missing something.
Regarding the last part, Pogba could pass over the distances, it didn't seem to work yesterday.
But he should be able to. He has had moments when he has been able to. But in the last two matches he has been abysmal.
Wolves lined up with a 3-4-3, with Trincao and Adama as their inside forwards. To avoid getting completely overrun in wide areas we therefore needed to try and pin back the wing backs. Because if have to defend an overlap of Trincao and Adama you will be in big, big trouble. Its hard enough to defend them 1v1. Having to defend them when you gotta make a decision about who to stick with and who to follow makes life even more difficult.
The best form of defence is attack. If you commit four men forward then the Wolves wingbacks have to decide: Do I leave my back 3 outnumbered by 4 players or do I drop back? The Wolves wingbacks, mostly, dropped back and made a back 5. That left our defence in a 4 vs 3 situation, which was still hard to defend. However, it meant that at least at times they could double up on Trincao and Adama and have one centre back sweeping.
So having covered those tactical basis you're left with Moutinho and Neves vs Fred and Pogba, and basically backing your guys in a 2 on 2 battle...
...but for large parts of the game we lost that battle. Our midfielders did not work together well and they did not progress the ball well. Mostly, that was down to Fred being unwilling/unable to do what was required to support Pogba.
Our attacking player all wait upfront for the ball, without supporting or moving. On top, our midfield is struggling in general
Well the way I see it we just played 4-2------4 formation with our forwards not supporting midfielders and not oferring passing options. Wolves had plenty of dangerous attacks with Traore/Trincao so it's not like we pinned them back.
The last bit made me chuckle a bit. Always Fred fault he's not a peak Kante, the biggest problem we have.
This has to be the worst take on this forum.
It really hurts me to see Pogba being criticized for our build up. He put in some amazing balls that were a cnut hair offside. I bet some of the ones criticizing him for this also complained about his lack of goals last season. Sometimes I feel like Pogba is expected to drop deep to pick up the ball, make a brilliant pass from midfield and score at the other end of the pitch at the same time.
Pogba a problem in our build up, feck me. Do you guys realize there's 6 other players involved as well? If you'd hold them to the same standards as Pogba, he wouldn't be mentioned in this thread.
Pogba a problem in our build up, feck me. Do you guys realize there's 6 other players involved as well? If you'd hold them to the same standards as Pogba, he wouldn't be mentioned in this thread.
Basically our plan had two elements:
First, ensure our defence would not be continually outnumbered by the Wolves wingbacks joining their attacks to create 5 vs 4 situations.
Second, to have the game hinge on a 2-a-side midfield contest between Pogba and Fred and Moutinho and Neves.
To some extent the plan worked. We were able to defend Wolves with a numerical advantage most the time. The plan mostly came unstuck when, according to our design, the 2-a-side game broke down. That had nothing to do with Fred not being like Kante. I'm not sure why you've brought up that comparison.
What we needed Fred to do, what our gameplan hinged on, was our midfield two engaging and beating the Wolves midfield in 1v1 duels. With our front line pulling Wolves' defence deeper, we needed our midfielders to actively engage Wolves. Dribble through the first line of pressure, from Moutinho and/or Neves, then use the space in front of the Wolves defence. Its the kind of thing Renato Sanches does so well: Beat a man and open up midfield.
Pogba is actually quite good at this, McTominay also although he does it more with brute strength than technique. Matic takes too many touches to do this effectively though and ends up going sideways and Fred...
Yeah the whole gameplan fell down because Fred is just a limited player with the ball at his feet. Whenever he got it Moutinho and/or Neves actively engaged him, knowing they could pressure him into turnovers. Fred should be better than that and has played better than that, both for Brazil and United. But whatever confidence he gained against Leeds has obviously evaporated.
It was quite funny in a sad way when dion dublin was talking about our issues against wolves on motd2 and the need for a player to drop into the space between the defence and midfield so pogna could find him.
We do have a player who would have been ideal but Ole refuses to play him van der beek.
We do have a player who would have been ideal but Ole refuses to play him van der beek.
We play with a 10 but that doesn’t give us the extra man in midfield. Our 10 is a 10 who is more focused on deciding games than controlling them. He’s helped decide a lot of games, so it’s not an automatic negative, but it comes at a cost.
The Pogba on the left thing works a bit better because in practice, he ends up being more of an actual 10. But that too comes at a cost.
The shape of our midfield has been a problem for a while. I made a thread about the shape of our midfield the season before last, when we were winning games after lockdown with Matic, Pogba and Bruno. Matic turns into a centre half, Bruno a centre forward, and Pogba stands in the centre-circle alone. This may well all be tactical decisions of course, but we will find it hard to control a game if our midfield 3 do not regularly play within 10-15 yards of each other at most. Often it will need to be much less than that. Otherwise, we’re basically putting an emphasis on individual ability to just find a way through a couple of players.
The Pogba on the left thing works a bit better because in practice, he ends up being more of an actual 10. But that too comes at a cost.
The shape of our midfield has been a problem for a while. I made a thread about the shape of our midfield the season before last, when we were winning games after lockdown with Matic, Pogba and Bruno. Matic turns into a centre half, Bruno a centre forward, and Pogba stands in the centre-circle alone. This may well all be tactical decisions of course, but we will find it hard to control a game if our midfield 3 do not regularly play within 10-15 yards of each other at most. Often it will need to be much less than that. Otherwise, we’re basically putting an emphasis on individual ability to just find a way through a couple of players.
Is that how they played their other two games? Did they change formation for us?
The match finished with an xg of 1.8 against 0.6. It had 3 decisive moments: AWB from the line clearance, wondersave De Gea and Greenwood goal. Whatever you construct to be "the plan" it didn't really work. And your focus on Fred is weird, everybody and his dog knows what kind of player he is and you portray it as if the manager decides on a plan where he has to do line breaking dribbles? Sorry, I don't buy that at all.
We lost the midfield battle because Moutinho and Neves were supported by the rest of their team, because wolves were able to give the ball to Traore and Trincao for relief because they were great carrying it. In a midfield battle, Pogba gives you nothing really. Not his fault though, at this point you know what you get when you play him.
What an opinion? You know sitting on your sofa as a fan on a forum you are entitled to them. You shit doesn't smell any sweeter than mine....
They have played 3-4-3 every game. Had their first three games not been against Leicester, Spurs and us, all of whom scraped wins against them, they'd be much higher up the table. Not many teams will beat Leicester, Spurs and us this season.
I'm not saying the plan worked fantastically well but the logic was not bad. Wolves' big chances were a set piece and a turnover from Fred failing to deal with a ball straight at him, then flailing about after Trincao once he picked up the ball. It was not DeGea at the Emirates 2017-18. You're overegging it.
Sticking Pogba anywhere up top will always be an improvement.
Pogba's preference to dribble and use his body to protect the ball is ideal for that part of the pitch where if Pogba gets into the penalty box then the tackles that would normally be flying in if he was in midfield are held back for fear of giving away a penalty.
When he's in midfield it can be cramped but there is no incentive for him to dribble as he''s likely only going to make a few yards progress before he gets tackled