Fake news. Why would the owners not try to improve the squad given how competitive the Premier League is? Money was spent on the squad. Nearly 500m during Mourinho's tenure (not even counting the astronomical wages paid to Sanchez). Let's not resort to complete fabrications...
If Mourinho's authority and ideology were given more backing, would we be challenging?
- Thread starter DeGea
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Given the previous transfer outlay, signing Sanchez in January, and comments of Mourinho himself: Absolutely. There is really no question unless I willfully ignore the fact, like some are doing.
What was Mourinho's ideology? Continue to bring in dross on contracts that make them impossible to sell when we realise how inadequate they are? Continue to have no discernible playing style beyond 100 games of his tenure? Keep the rubbish we accumulated under Sir Alex and van Gaal around at the expense of offering younger players a chance?
Sorry, but Mourinho had to go because there was absolutely nothing to suggest that things would get any better. He was allowed to spend hundreds of millions on players he himself didn't trust (Bailly, Lindelof, Pogba, Mkhitaryan) and went as far as intentionally sabotaging the team to make idiotic non-points to the board (Herrera and McTominay at centre back to expose a lack of investment when he had already spent £65 million on failing defenders). He won the Europa League with thanks to one of the worst misses of all time with the last kick of the Celta game and sometimes I think I'd rather have sacrificed the trophy to get rid of the utter charlatan earlier than we did.
Sorry, but Mourinho had to go because there was absolutely nothing to suggest that things would get any better. He was allowed to spend hundreds of millions on players he himself didn't trust (Bailly, Lindelof, Pogba, Mkhitaryan) and went as far as intentionally sabotaging the team to make idiotic non-points to the board (Herrera and McTominay at centre back to expose a lack of investment when he had already spent £65 million on failing defenders). He won the Europa League with thanks to one of the worst misses of all time with the last kick of the Celta game and sometimes I think I'd rather have sacrificed the trophy to get rid of the utter charlatan earlier than we did.
Or if Mourinho hadn't been such a miserable and embarrassing git would we still be challenging...spoken as someone who always loved the man and wanted him here. Except I wanted the personality that was at Chelsea.
I generally agree with your comment. Just to add 1 more point. When season started Mourinho was like a bull in china shop, in front of camera, to the press, and I suspect he deliberately sabotage 1 of the game by pairing Lindelof and Bailey just to prove his point, and start McTom as CB?. Did Moyes act like that when he failed to get his players? Did Poch act like that when Spurs didn't spent.
No. Just no.
I read through the list of signings and was thinking how good they've all been for City except Nolito and Bravo. I'm confused by what you say, as Gundogan has looked very good when he's played, Sane's a great option and very talented, Jesus is as devastating an understudy centre forward as you could hope to find and Stones has been excellent whenever he's played and much-improved in his time at Man City. Really, I just flat-out disagree with your analysis, I'm afraid!
If he was given autonomy to strip it down and build the exact team he wanted, I do believe he would have been successful.
But ultimately, he would have had a meltdown at some point, and the team he built would probably have been full of 30 something year olds, and we'd still have a rebuilding job on our hands.
But ultimately, he would have had a meltdown at some point, and the team he built would probably have been full of 30 something year olds, and we'd still have a rebuilding job on our hands.
I think Jose's ideas revolve around players with a winning mentality that have no problem to sacrifice style for results. It requires a certain type of character to be in sync with him.
I find that his relative decline in terms of results reflects more the increasing "snow flake" mentality in current generation of players. They are young millionaires and totally different from the players of 1-2 decades ago.
He would thrive with players like he had at Inter or in a club where nobody undermines him, be that somebody from the board or a star player. I think he would have been more successful for you in a different setup. At Chelsea in his second stint the board backed him and he delivered. He only got sacked after falling out with some key players in the dressing room in his 3rd season when maybe the players get mentally tired to be as intensive as he is. At United he was undermined both by the board and key players at the same time. It was never going to work.
In the past players where more about grit and discipline which he likes. He knows how to win if players follow his instruction without questioning him. His best team was also his least talented - Inter Milan.
I find that his relative decline in terms of results reflects more the increasing "snow flake" mentality in current generation of players. They are young millionaires and totally different from the players of 1-2 decades ago.
He would thrive with players like he had at Inter or in a club where nobody undermines him, be that somebody from the board or a star player. I think he would have been more successful for you in a different setup. At Chelsea in his second stint the board backed him and he delivered. He only got sacked after falling out with some key players in the dressing room in his 3rd season when maybe the players get mentally tired to be as intensive as he is. At United he was undermined both by the board and key players at the same time. It was never going to work.
In the past players where more about grit and discipline which he likes. He knows how to win if players follow his instruction without questioning him. His best team was also his least talented - Inter Milan.
A good analysis by someone who obviously understands the game and how Jose operates. He requires consistency and a very strong mentality coupled with dedication.
I repeat - a lost opportunity for United but it is clear that our players were not good enough to play to his requirements.
There's definitely the snowflake or maybe more appropriate categorization, millennial mentality. In addition to that, I really think the bigger issue was Woodward then siding with the players that took issue to Jose's approach. Keeping with the analogy, the generation grows up with Mom and Dad giving trophies for tenth place, being told they're the best not because of hard work but because theyre so talented. So when that college professor shuts them down and fails them for the first time in their lives they can't handle it.
Snowflake generation? Is the reason Mourinho threw the team, board, fans under the bus and had a strop and was a complete bellend trying to prove a point to the board?
Yes it was fecking obvious this team needed upgrades, I'm not fecking sure Willian, Perisic, Maguire would of taken us to the top level.
Mourinho didn't get what he wanted, so he threw a strop and wasted this season. Instead of knuckling down, using what he had to try make the best of it.. like Poch who is now in the fecking final despite getting NO new players (UTD got 2, plus you could argue Sanchez too) he's finishing ahead of Utd plus has the chance of winning the biggest trophy in the club game.
Despite finishing behind Utd the previous season.
Mourinho had a point, most certainly this team IS not good enough and needs improvements but in all honesty if Utd had spent 200mill on those 3 players would this team be much better? Really?
The way Mourinho acted should be enough to say, no. Utd deserve better not fecking absolving him of all fecking blame.
He is proving to be right though. He benched Martial for not working enough. Stripped the captaincy Pogba off due to his attitude. Wanted Dier at DM ( Matic was his backup plan), wanted Maguire, Wanted a left winger and a goal scoring attacker in the mould of Greizman .
So where are we now ? Martial and Pogba is still the same, we are still chasing a DM (Rice), winger (Swansea kid) and Maguire .
A goal scoring attacker is still being chased (Bruno).
Ed should take the blame for 80% of the issues this season.
I am not saying Mourinho was right in his behavior at United or at Chelsea in his final season. I am saying he was set up to fail because everybody knows how he is. And that is a board problem in my eyes. He was perfect for you to stop the crisis, win something and begin a new cycle and he was on a good course to deliver. But like you said his transfer requests were not met because they were this or that. I could argue Willian and Perisic would have delivered you better results than Sanchez and Martial. You seem to look only at the player's qualities without understanding the relation they can have with a manager. If there is understanding between manager and players they give everything and I don't know another manager who can inspire players like Mourinho can, maybe Klopp this season. Mourinho was pretty much unique in this regard. There is enough evidence online where players describe their relation with him and what kind of trust he builds.
Snowflake generation? Is the reason Mourinho threw the team, board, fans under the bus and had a strop and was a complete bellend trying to prove a point to the board?
Yes it was fecking obvious this team needed upgrades, I'm not fecking sure Willian, Perisic, Maguire would of taken us to the top level.
Mourinho didn't get what he wanted, so he threw a strop and wasted this season. Instead of knuckling down, using what he had to try make the best of it.. like Poch who is now in the fecking final despite getting NO new players (UTD got 2, plus you could argue Sanchez too) he's finishing ahead of Utd plus has the chance of winning the biggest trophy in the club game.
Despite finishing behind Utd the previous season.
Mourinho had a point, most certainly this team IS not good enough and needs improvements but in all honesty if Utd had spent 200mill on those 3 players would this team be much better? Really?
The way Mourinho acted should be enough to say, no. Utd deserve better not fecking absolving him of all fecking blame.
Let's imagine he was backed with the transfers he wanted and you had Willian, Perisic Maguire etc. and maybe you wouldn't win the PL, but instead finished in top 3 and had similar success in CL. Would that count as a great season? No, but it would have been 2 stable seasons in a row and you can build on that especially as you guys have money to spend. Now you guys are having more than half a decade of uncertainty and it looks as bad as ever.
You should know that Mourinho does not do stability.
Yes. I think the club failed to get the best out of Mourinho
Any manager given more time would be more challenging.
Give moyes another 5 years and full support he'll probably get us top 4 without fuzz every year. It's just a matter of whether or not his improvement is worth the cost
Give moyes another 5 years and full support he'll probably get us top 4 without fuzz every year. It's just a matter of whether or not his improvement is worth the cost
One of the best, if not the best posts to sum up our mess post Ferguson!
Nail on the head Bob!
Clearly got pissed off with being over ruled by that gormless twat EW. Wasn’t allowed to manage his way and still, some clowns think he chose Sanchez, Fred etc. Gave up and it was a case of “who blinks first”... the club did and Mou got his pay.
Three trophies and 2nd finish. By far, best since Fergie.
Three trophies and 2nd finish. By far, best since Fergie.
Were Matic & Lukaku not his choices too? That’s the profile of player he identified. William & Perisic too. The game moved on past him.
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I think he'd realised that this was no longer the type of job he was ever going to excel at.
I think his model of management is to make an already decent side better by going to war with his players for 3 years, either getting the very best out of them or shipping them off and replacing them with ready made trustworthy players.
In hindsight we needed to rebuild before we went for the guaranteed success route of Jose. We picked up a couple of trophies relying on defensive football and workhorses like Fellaini chipping in while other clubs around us moved forward.
I think his model of management is to make an already decent side better by going to war with his players for 3 years, either getting the very best out of them or shipping them off and replacing them with ready made trustworthy players.
In hindsight we needed to rebuild before we went for the guaranteed success route of Jose. We picked up a couple of trophies relying on defensive football and workhorses like Fellaini chipping in while other clubs around us moved forward.
He was making worse footballing decisions than the supposed twat, you know...like forcing the club to keep Fellaini.
I'm not anti-Jose and he brought silverware although it was clear he had to go based on the instability he had helped generate and his combative public attitude although there was plenty of blame to go around at the higher level of the club. However, we ended up with probably the worst signing ever - Sanchez - so who decided to bring him in if not Jose?
Sorry, I don't buy the notion that anybody else made United sign Sanchez. He is the nadir of signings in terms of the obscene money to value ratio which is appalling. We have had relatively expensive failures at United before but nothing like this - Sanchez is something else.
Think Jose would have been great taking over from Fergie direct. That was an older squad packed with winners. One or two big names who would have been easier to sign than with Moyes and I would not be surprised if we had one more league title by now. He wasn't the guy to go to for the rebuild needed post LVG though.
When Mourinho had the players he wanted and he had them on his side, e.g. for much of his time at Chelsea and Inter, he was successful. At Madrid he got into arguments with their 'gods' like Ramos and Co. and things didn't go as well and at United he didn't get all he wanted, because the form of some of his first buys didn't materialise and the money man decided he could do better and sell more shirts in the process, so after his initial season and two trophies it was downhill.
The situation could not be recovered and when the idea of a DoF was raised Jose suddenly found he and Woodward had something in common, neither wanted someone looking over their shoulder and so he arrange with Ed his departure.
I don't think it was anything to do with authority or backing really, as far as the club hierarchy was concerned he made some mistakes which he/they were not able to make right and the players he had on his side were either too young, not good enough, or there were not enough of them to follow his plans. Perhaps most importantly there was a growing section of the fan base, some of whom never wanted Mourinho in the first place, becoming more vocal, and most of all the results were less than acceptable and showed no sign of improving.
The situation could not be recovered and when the idea of a DoF was raised Jose suddenly found he and Woodward had something in common, neither wanted someone looking over their shoulder and so he arrange with Ed his departure.
I don't think it was anything to do with authority or backing really, as far as the club hierarchy was concerned he made some mistakes which he/they were not able to make right and the players he had on his side were either too young, not good enough, or there were not enough of them to follow his plans. Perhaps most importantly there was a growing section of the fan base, some of whom never wanted Mourinho in the first place, becoming more vocal, and most of all the results were less than acceptable and showed no sign of improving.
Regardless of who brought Sanchez in, it wasn’t a bad idea. It is in hindsight, but anyone who says Sanchez would fail this badly when we side him is a liar. The money though, that’s 100% on woody and judge. They make the deals. They negotiate the contracts. So even if Sanchez was 100% Jose’s idea, he would still have had zero to do with the money side.
Of course Mourinho chose Fred and Sanchez, you think someone was making transfers without his input and you’re calling us clowns?
Oh look everybody, a passive aggressive Mourinho super fan. They’re a rarity, not.
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What you have said, you could also imagine him win the quadruple or still finishing 6th. There was no guarantee and we could have had more 30 odd year old dead wood to shift. The slide started pre season when he started slagging the team off and once you do that the dressing rooms lost. Imagine Ole or Fergie or even Moyes finishing 2nd and being denied a player or two who are approaching 30. Would they have slagged the team off?
Sure thing, lul. He played his cards perfectly from day one.
It seems like a long time ago when Mourinho was manager and we were benching Pogba and playing shit football. On top and of all that he was absolutely poison for the club, being a high end manager you have to carry on being professional with what you've got look at Pochettino. Mourinho threw he's toys out of the pram and just completely lost it for me which was always the danger with his reputation.
So to answer your question yes he probably would have been a success but he would have left and left us back to square 1 in terms of the squad.
So to answer your question yes he probably would have been a success but he would have left and left us back to square 1 in terms of the squad.
Matic, Lukaku, Sanchez & Fred - here I am crying that we didn't get perisic and Willian as well.
Yes they would have made all the difference. We'd be celebrating as Champions of Europe tonight if only he'd gotten Perisic and Willian too, that's for sure.
That clown couldn't even get mane and fabinho here, specially fabinho when he was begging to come. Our inaction made Liverpool a complete team.
Well, we certainly would not have finished in 6th place.
Nobody is asking for us to win the CL or league, but to finish 6th place is embarrassing, after finishing 2nd last season.
Where is the progress?
Why is nobody pointing the finger at Woodward who claimed that our CBs are good enough and overruled Jose's transfer list to save some money?
Mourinho is a 3-4 season manager, must have a lot of money and a league domination ensured and maybe, on top of that, he delivers a European result. He is never the soul and the heart of the club, when we lost against Sevilla he talked about "football heritage" as if it's expected for a club of this size to lose to fecking Sevilla.
Now we're watching Liverpool and even fecking Spurs all above us and in CL finals too and he's big part of the reason why we're not there. Give Ole time, we'll be there again.
Now we're watching Liverpool and even fecking Spurs all above us and in CL finals too and he's big part of the reason why we're not there. Give Ole time, we'll be there again.
What are you talking about, we were sixth when he got sacked and going nowhere. Only reason we ended up with a sniff at the champions league places were because of the run we went on after he rightly got sacked.
This in a nutshell is why most people feel Mourinho's tactics and the way he wants his players to play the game is out dated. The fact that his first thoughts are how good a striker's 'defensive organisation' is, tells you all you need to know about his obsession with defending. You need a good defensive tactics but with nowadays so much emphasis being placed on attack, it is becoming increasingly harder and harder to just keep teams out.
Klopps team is based off defending from the front. The pressing of the front 3 is perhaps the most important part of Liverpool’s play.
Mourinho didn’t have enough Mourinho personalities. If he’d took over from Ferguson he’d of been great, but he needs professionals who’ll run through brick walls for him. He was just a really poor match for this squad.
He had to go.