If Odegaard and Havertz works, then why can't Mount and Bruno?

[90 + 5min]

I look at Arsenal and the way they play with Havertz and Odegaard. Both of them push high up the pitch and play in the half spaces, almost like inside forwards.

I look at Bruno and Mount, and although Odegaard is arguably the most technically gifted out of the four midfielders, they all have similar roles, which is pretty much as I explained above.

Now, I know football not as simple as throwing players in and it all of a sudden just working, but my question would be, what would ten Hag need to do in order for Mount and Bruno to work like we see with Havertz and Odegaard?

They can work. Problem is that our wingers need to be better defending so we don’t have central midfielders doing wingers job. With defending it is not just what you do defensivly in our half. It is also about pressing and working together higher up.
Arsenal is all about using attackers as first defenders. So they are doing a pretty good job there. When they don’t work or produce that team falls apart because rest are pretty much average players.

 

[ESR10]

Pretty much average players? You speak about Man Utd right?

 

[Orange Tree]

Because our players give away possession pointlessly and we have wingers who do feck all without space and support of an overlapping fullback.

 

[Adisa]

Not when one player(Bruno) gives the ball away like it’s nothing.

 

[GoonerGirly]

A crucial component to Havertz/Odegaard (finally) working is their off the ball work. They are brilliant off the ball and know when to drop and when to press. Odegaard often leads this (and the team follows) and Havertz is arguably often better off the ball than on it. Rice of course is brilliant but the two in front of him do a good job of not leaving gaps in midfield. For United, Casemiro unfortunately is probably on his last legs and can't cover the ground Rice can (and he cost £60mil). And Bruno and Mount collectively isn't as disciplined or good off the ball as Odegaard and Havertz. Though, Mount has barely played so hard to really judge him.

 

[FrankDrebin]

I think Mount is capable of playing in this role.

 

[hobbers]

Odegaard is a much better footballer than Bruno and Havertz is better than Mount, especially since he's actually playing and not just a prop for the medical team.

 

[DJ_21]

Odegaard is a much better footballer than Bruno and Havertz is better than Mount, especially since he's actually playing and not just a prop for the medical team.

Havertz has had a few decent games. Wouldn’t say he’s any better than Mount. Mount won player of the season twice at Chelsea…

 

[bosnian_red]

I don't think Odegaard and havertz in midfield works that well. At least not in bigger games. They aim to control games though and they aren't built based on transition/direct football, but they are built to dominate the ball and possession. It's a different system so they can have more creators in it. And saying that, Odegaard is far more comfortable in deep spaces than Bruno. He is press resistant, he is a very good carrier, he keeps the ball brilliantly, and is suited to possession football. Rice is also an excellent lone DM with his physical attributes, which we don't have.

Ten Hags system is transition based, direct football. He even said that was his aim. If that's your aim, you need more defensive solidity otherwise there are just huge gaps to exploit. Bruno also is not press resistant, has 0 carrying ability, and is not a deep midfielder. Mount also isn't like Odegaard where he's going to look to get on the ball much. He just adds a bit here and there, he doesn't have the ability and understanding to dictate possession. Mainoo is, but Mainoo is a deeper player and not a 10. He also isn't a lone DM though and can't do the role Rice needs to do for Arsenal.

 

[hobbers]

Havertz has had a few decent games. Wouldn’t say he’s any better than Mount. Mount won player of the season twice at Chelsea…

He's miles better as a false 9 than Mount could ever be, even if he does kick a ball again. His movement and positioning is great, he just has no finishing ability.

All we've seen of Mount is him living in defenders pockets.

 

[DJ_21]

He's miles better as a false 9 than Mount could ever be, even if he does kick a ball again. His movement and positioning is great, he just has no finishing ability.

All we've seen of Mount is him living in defenders pockets.

Maybe that’s because Mount isn’t a false 9 you might want to check each players position and roles before comparing them.

 

[GoonerGirly]

I don't think Odegaard and havertz in midfield works that well. At least not in bigger games.

I'd have to disagree; Odegaard and Havertz playing almost as two 10s was very effective against Liverpool recently, and they combined to create the first goal for Saka. Havertz also came on as a sub and helped us score the winner against City. He played as the LCM when we beat you at the Emirates. Havertz seems to be well trusted by Arteta.

But I think what we've been doing the last few games is what's working best at the moment - Trossard at false 9 with Havertz and Odegaard behind him. Odegaard is also dropping deeper to receive the ball (a tactical tweak from Arteta) and Trossard and Havertz are constantly interchanging making it hard for defenders to track players.

 

[KiD MoYeS]

Bruno and Mount can absolutely work together in a team that controls games. We are not that team under Ten Hag. We have the minority of possession in far too many games. We are a transition team. Having said that, I'm interested to see Mount back in the team now that the front three are starting to produce.

 

[bosnian_red]

I'd have to disagree; Odegaard and Havertz playing almost as two 10s was very effective against Liverpool recently, and they combined to create the first goal for Saka. Havertz also came on as a sub and helped us score the winner against City. He played as the LCM when we beat you at the Emirates. Havertz seems to be well trusted by Arteta.

But I think what we've been doing the last few games is what's working best at the moment - Trossard at false 9 with Havertz and Odegaard behind him. Odegaard is also dropping deeper to receive the ball (a tactical tweak from Arteta) and Trossard and Havertz are constantly interchanging making it hard for defenders to track players.

You had both Jorginho and Rice in against Liverpool?

 

[Superunknown]

I am very curious to see what the plan is with Mount and why ETH brought him in. It's frustrating he's only been able to manage a limited number of league appearances. Mainoo coming in and securing his position in the starting 11 is going to make this even more interesting when Mount is back. I can't see who he is coming in to replace in that 11, unless ETH is thinking of Mainoo + Mount + Bruno, which...I'm not entirely sure what I feel about that. Is Mount renowned for being mobile and keeping the ball?

 

[GoonerGirly]

You had both Jorginho and Rice in against Liverpool?

Yes we did and in truth we played with both Havertz and Odegaard as false 9s. When we were defending, Havertz and Odegaard were the highest up the pitch and Saka and Martinelli dropped next to Rice and Jorginho to form our midfield 4. It was a different formation and Liverpool were totally unprepared for it. But my point was a general one that Havertz, at the moment, is in our best 11, particularly for big games. His versatility and ability to play false 9 and interchange into midfield, plus his immense workrate off the ball, makes him one of our best players at the moment.

 

[bosnian_red]

Yes we did and in truth we played with both Havertz and Odegaard as false 9s. When we were defending, Havertz and Odegaard were the highest up the pitch and Saka and Martinelli dropped next to Rice and Jorginho to form our midfield 4. It was a different formation and Liverpool were totally unprepared for it. But my point was a general one that Havertz, at the moment, is in our best 11, particularly for big games. His versatility and ability to play false 9 and interchange into midfield, plus his immense workrate off the ball, makes him one of our best players at the moment.

Ah yeah, I'm not arguing that so much, more so that I don't think Rice alone behind Odegaard and havertz works in tough games. Arteta seems to share that opinion though.

 

[GoonerGirly]

Ah yeah, I'm not arguing that so much, more so that I don't think Rice alone behind Odegaard and havertz works in tough games. Arteta seems to share that opinion though.

Oh right yes I agree it depends on someone slotting in next to Rice. I agree Rice alone wouldn't work as it gives him too much to do. I must have misunderstand you, sorry.
Usually Zinchenko would invert next to Rice, but as he's been out, White has been doing that lately (and quite well). That allows Odegaard to drop deeper, finding more space to progress the ball. I've been quite pleasantly surprised with how Arteta has been able to evolve us and make small tactical tweaks as the season has wore on.

 

[gajender]

Bruno and Mount can absolutely work together in a team that controls games. We are not that team under Ten Hag. We have the minority of possession in far too many games. We are a transition team. Having said that, I'm interested to see Mount back in the team now that the front three are starting to produce.

No idea how Mount would fare but any Manager relying on Bruno to control games is hiding to nothing .

 

[marktan]

Rice is a better currently than Cas and Haveertz has always been better than Mount. We bought Jesse Lingard for £60m and then will be surprised why it doesn't work. Look at Mainoo - that's an actual CM.

 

[giorno]

A better coach

 

[CannonBalls]

Oh right yes I agree it depends on someone slotting in next to Rice. I agree Rice alone wouldn't work as it gives him too much to do. I must have misunderstand you, sorry.
Usually Zinchenko would invert next to Rice, but as he's been out, White has been doing that lately (and quite well). That allows Odegaard to drop deeper, finding more space to progress the ball. I've been quite pleasantly surprised with how Arteta has been able to evolve us and make small tactical tweaks as the season has wore on.

Zinchenko himself is not there preferred choice for big games. Generally it's Tomiyasu. Zinchenko is too big a liability especially in the big games and i would say otherwise aswell.

 

[Wing Attack Plan R]

I think Mount will be a real boon to this team, can't wait to see him back in the side. Bruno can play a little more conservatively with Mount alongside him, not needing to be Roy of the Rovers every time he gets the ball.

 

[RedStarUnited]

A better coach

This x 100

Watch Arsenal out of possession then watch us, its night and day. They simply move better as a team than we do, and are very compact. Where as we are very disconnected and dont apply pressure on the ball that well.

 

[Bobby Funk G]

Mount needs more time in the gym.

 

[MO_Football92]

Don't think so.
He is a final ball player.

Can still fit a possession game

 

[ifightdragons]

No idea how Mount would fare but any Manager relying on Bruno to control games is hiding to nothing .

This is true.

No matter how anyone wants to twist it, Bruno is not press resistant nor disciplined enough to be a player that controls possession and dictates tempo. He thrives from chaotic, fast-paced counters.

If United want to start dominating games and possession, players like Bruno and Rashford can never be a part of that. They simply don't have the tactical or technical skill set required. They're the opposite types of players you'd see in a Pep-system. Some fans like to compare Bruno to De Bruyne, which is ridiculous. De Bruyne has arguably been the best footballer in the world for the past 5 years, and should have won the Ballon d'Or multiple times, had it been a proper award. Bruno is nowhere near that level. But our (lack of) tactics means that everything we do is based on giving Bruno the ball to feed Rashford, so of course Bruno's chance creation stats will be off the charts. He literally plays every single minute, and no one else is practically allowed to get the ball to create.

We even made him captain, which is on par with some of the dumbest decision making we've done, and that's some stiff competition. He is by no means a leader. He is a hard worker, and he is passionate, but that's not the definition of a leader. A leader should inspire, motivate, and even sometimes frighten you to never let your standards drop an inch. A leader should be extremely charismatic, something Bruno absolutely is not. If anything, he looks bewildered and petulant most of the time. Roy Keane was a true leader. Bruno is just a grafter. A good grafter at that, but still just a grafter.

If we want to continue to play on the counter and be a top 4 team at best with awful game management and little to no control, Bruno and Rashford will be suitable options.

 

[gajender]

This is true.

No matter how anyone wants to twist it, Bruno is not press resistant nor disciplined enough to be a player that controls possession and dictates tempo. He thrives from chaotic, fast-paced counters.

If United want to start dominating games and possession, players like Bruno and Rashford can never be a part of that. They simply don't have the tactical or technical skill set required. They're the opposite types of players you'd see in a Pep-system. Some fans like to compare Bruno to De Bruyne, which is ridiculous. De Bruyne has arguably been the best footballer in the world for the past 5 years, and should have won the Ballon d'Or multiple times, had it been a proper award. Bruno is nowhere near that level. But our (lack of) tactics means that everything we do is based on giving Bruno the ball to feed Rashford, so of course Bruno's chance creation stats will be off the charts. He literally plays every single minute, and no one else is practically allowed to get the ball to create.

We even made him captain, which is on par with some of the dumbest decision making we've done, and that's some stiff competition. He is by no means a leader. He is a hard worker, and he is passionate, but that's not the definition of a leader. A leader should inspire, motivate, and even sometimes frighten you to never let your standards drop an inch. A leader should be extremely charismatic, something Bruno absolutely is not. If anything, he looks bewildered and petulant most of the time. Roy Keane was a true leader. Bruno is just a grafter. A good grafter at that, but still just a grafter.

If we want to continue to play on the counter and be a top 4 team at best with awful game management and little to no control, Bruno and Rashford will be suitable options.

More or less agree on everything good post , hopefully United's new management can see past the names and all the noise and do what's really needed to Change United's fortune .

 

[afatzp]

Bruno is the reason. I don' think any midfield combination with Bruno in it would play dominant football. He is always the "high risk - high return" type of "Bruno ball" and monopoly all creative work, even the chance is premature he still tries it anyway. We used to have Bruno play along with Pogba and Matic, the two who can both control balls well and talent enough to play dominant football, but the outcome was still "Bruno ball" .

Mount on the other hand would well suit with Casemiro and Mainoo and give us more possession and control . But with Bruno been selected as captain and politically un-droppable , we would not see this trio start together regularly.

 

[Nytram Shakes]

Our new players above 25 have an allergic reaction to being coached

 

[Teja]

The answer to this is more complicated and nuanced than people would like it to be.

In reality, its because both Arsenal and Man City play very differently to us. The role of their inverting full backs and the way their centre backs step out of defence creates a crowded central midfield area. It leaves them vulnerable to attacks down the flanks. However, they keep the ball so well, and use the tactical foul so effectively, that they're rarely caught out.

Ten Hag seemed to be trying to move in this direction early on this season but the team either couldn't or wouldn't adapt. In that first game against Wolves we tried to squeeze up the pitch and had Shaw inverting. However, Wolves beat our high press constantly and Nunes exposed our lack of mobility in midfield and ability to keep the ball.

The way that Pep and Lego Pep play is dependent on keeping the ball and shutting down counters quickly and effectively. If you can do that you can force more attacking players onto the pitch. Which is what both do. On paper City play 3 at the back but that's partly because one of their centre backs effectively plays as a defensive midfielder and their forward line is so wide, and occupies so much space that it creates problems for opponents.

We just can't seem to get it right. Ten Hag IS pushing the midfielders forward into similar areas that the City and Arsenal players occupy. But even though we are forcing a high number of turnovers, statistically, we aren't capitalising enough to scare opponents. Invariably we have good 20 minute spells, run out of gas and then lose control. End up retreating deep and hoofing it because the system breaks down. Plus, due to the bad form of our wingers, Ten Hag has committed to using the full backs to create width and they're inverting much less. This means its much harder to hold the ball in midfield and gaps open up routinely in our midfield shape.

We're kind of a halfway house between pre-Van Dijk Liverpool and pre-last season Arsenal. We are playing in a way that generates a high number of chances but is defensively unsound. The coach needs to decide which path he's going to take. If we're going to go more in the Liverpool direction, we need more pace and power in midfield and more commitment to using the fullbacks as attacking outlets. If we're going to go back to a more Ajax like way, then we need to get the timing of our press right and our wide forwards need to become vastly more productive and able to win 1v1 duels without overlapping full backs.

I mostly agree with some minor nits.

But even though we are forcing a high number of turnovers, statistically, we aren't capitalising enough to scare opponents.

We only force this from the mid block generally, I think our high pressing game to force turnovers is quite ineffective. If there's a success % stat for pressured goal kicks resulting in a turnover, we'll be quite mediocre. My instinct also says our counter press after loosing possession is quite crap but less certain about this.

The situation where we do the best is after the initial phase where the GK passes it to the CBs and the ball progresses a bit but not quite as far as the half way line.

Plus, due to the bad form of our wingers, Ten Hag has committed to using the full backs to create width

I disagree. There's some situations in which Dalot continues to invert but I can't for the life of me figure out which games he does this and which games he doesn't. It's clearly a tactical instruction from Ten Hag and even after Garnacho / Hojlund / Rashford began to click into gear we don't see the fullback inverting consistently. On the contrary, we've seen him invert in some games while our attack was still crap.

For me the current state is:

Shaw (wide cb, license to go forward)
Martinez (middle, finds line breaking passes)
Varane (wide cb, license to go forward)

Dalot, Casemiro in the middle when he chooses to invert. I don't think Shaw inverts any more, he's happy being the 3rd CB.

Nunes exposed our lack of mobility in midfield and ability to keep the ball
...
If we're going to go more in the Liverpool direction, we need more pace and power in midfield

I don't think this is optional. Regardless of what we do, for me we need more physicality and pace through the middle. Bruno and Rashford are too easily shrugged off. No real athleticism in there even with a guy like Mainoo at #8. Casemiro has no pace and just dives in to compensate and gets booked.

Hojlund's pressing is adding some much needed steel but we need some spine. For me, a duo of athletic and powerful DM and CB will do the trick along with either Rashford giving more of a shit or replacing him with someone of the Mane / Diaz mould.

 

[tenpoless]

If Martinelli and Saka works then why can't Rashford and Garnacho?

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Odegaard’s general play is miles ahead of that of Bruno. Martinelli is much better than Rashford of this season. Casemiro is struggling to cope with Luton Town’s midfield. That plus losing key players like Martinez - our best CB by a mile - plays a big part, aside from the good job Arteta and their executives have done.

 

[amolbhatia50k]

Bruno and Mount can absolutely work together in a team that controls games. We are not that team under Ten Hag. We have the minority of possession in far too many games. We are a transition team. Having said that, I'm interested to see Mount back in the team now that the front three are starting to produce.

Mount is never fit so it’s pointless to make claims with regards to him. But what games has Bruno ever controlled? You say that we aren’t that team under ETH. But when have we ever been that team and when has Bruno ever been a key cog of such a team? Portugal do well against trash teams in qualifiers but in the crunch knockout games their system broke down.

We whine about being a counter attacking team despite key players being just that. Which possession team would thrive with Bruno and Rashford? Or even Casemiro without Modric and Kroos to make up for it?

 

[kouroux]

Where would Mount even play in the current setting ?

 

[Borys]

Bruno could work well with most. Mount was a terrible purchase we’re going to keep trying to shoehorn into the team until we accept that he’s just not very good

No, Bruno only works if he's stripped of any defensive duties and allowed to wield his creativity. Only then it makes sense to build the team around him, what made sense for us in a few seasons.

Bruno is a poor imitation of a midfielder, people think he will make a good CM because he runs a lot, but he is a headless chicken and my grandma would be able to dribble past him. It's not his fault, this is the kind of a player he is, it's just shocking from the manager who figured we should give Bruno more defensive/buildup responsibilities, what apparently also resulted in him losing the X factor - and eventually made him easily "replaceable".
And while we're at it, I actually believe Mount is a better fit for us for the future, he's more all-round player, can keep possession and run with the ball. I am confident he'll show that soon, if he ever plays football again this season what I am not sure of.

Basically it only works for Arsenal against teams they are easily better than anyway and only because they don't have an ongoing injury crisis, and also have a far stronger and more settled team than United.

It isn't going to work for United with Mount and Bruno because it leaves Casemiro with too much to do, and "top 6" opponent for you also currently translates as "anyone not potential relegation fodder" for us.

We can make a better fist of it with Mainoo because he's actually comfortable playing on the half turn so doesn't have to constantly be 40 yards ahead of Casemiro, but even then you saw against Villa, as soon as there's a weak spot (I.e. when Shaw went off) its FAR too easy for them to get through and target it.

Although true, I'd make a small tweak to it - even with Mainoo on the pitch Casemiro seems like he has too much to do, both #8s starting position is just too high and they should be more compact in midfield, but the manager wants to play direct football not waste the energy for meaningless horizontal/short passes + we must be the only team that presses high and has low defensive line.
Casemiro is actually close to perfect DM for how ETH wants to play (I think he got really lucky with Case), the problem is he seems like his legs are truly gone and his tackling ability has gone south. As a result we rarely intercept the ball in midfield, what is crucial to our transition game. I do believe Casemiro is done at this level and no formation will make this work with him as DM (especially that Mainoo is another low-energy CM, he need a different midfield partner).

Even once we replace Casemiro, neither of Mount / Bruno are capable of playing Odegaard role, they are both suited to perform as pure #10/second striker, but this setup doesn't make sense, we'll still struggle to build from the back. We need two #8s who are comfortable dropping deep and helping in each phase of the game AND on top of that we can give them more freedom to make runs into the box/out wide. Mount is the right player to perform all those tasks, but Bruno makes sense only in 4231 setup.

This would be the right moment to replace Bruno in the team (or at least phase him out) as we're actually not relying on him anywhere as much as in the previous seasons to create/score. But we don't need another #10, we need Casemiro replacement as Mainoo is already our best midfielder and very clearly not a DM, and "Mount-and-Bruno"midfield will no longer be a topic.

 

[RoyH1]

@Borys I was willing to consider your take on Bruno cause you make some borderline valid points and then you blew it by writing " I actually believe Mount is a better fit for us for the future, he's more all-round player, can keep possession and run with the ball." So don't take it personally if utterly ignore everything you wrote then.

 

[Borys]

@Borys I was willing to consider your take on Bruno cause you make some borderline valid points and then you blew it by writing " I actually believe Mount is a better fit for us for the future, he's more all-round player, can keep possession and run with the ball." So don't take it personally if utterly ignore everything you wrote then.

Sure man, that's one way to discuss on a forum. I will have to live with it, but I think I can take it.

 

[Lentwood]

Aside from anything else, we don't know I'd Bruno and Mount can work because its barely been tried.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

I look at Arsenal and the way they play with Havertz and Odegaard. Both of them push high up the pitch and play in the half spaces, almost like inside forwards.

I look at Bruno and Mount, and although Odegaard is arguably the most technically gifted out of the four midfielders, they all have similar roles, which is pretty much as I explained above.

Now, I know football not as simple as throwing players in and it all of a sudden just working, but my question would be, what would ten Hag need to do in order for Mount and Bruno to work like we see with Havertz and Odegaard?

A Declan Rice 6, an inverted full back and two selfless wingers defensively