"If only we'd beaten Blackburn..."

[Pogue Mahone]

Again, I'm not denying that all dropped points, going back to Burnley or whenever, are equally important in us not winning the league. But there's still a reason why the Blackburn result hurts more, which is that at that point, after all the poor performances and dropped points, even after the pathetic capitulation to Chelsea at OT, we were still right in there. It was still do-able. And we let it slip, against a very average side who didn't play very well. It's just a real shame.
(Fergie's).

See that's where I disagree and it's why I keep bringing up their result against Chelsea. They've been in good form in recent weeks, are a tricky prospect at home and actually defended very very well against us.

I know we are Manchester United but it's not enough to justify the way our fans think we have a god-given right to win every game and every dropped point is always our fault, without considering the possibility the opposition played well.

Blackburn just beat Arsenal too this evening too, didn't they? Their excellent record against top sides at home continues...

 

[Plechazunga]

I'm not saying we have a god-given right, I'm saying it's reasonable to be particularly gutted about it, as it was recent, pivotal, and eminently winnable both on paper and on the day.

Everyone has valid points.

But scenario this...

Chelsea draw/lose to Wigan but United fail to defeat Stoke.

Would that lose the league in one match?

Or would people be pointing out Burnley away, Villa home, etc?

That's a very good way of putting it. Clearly it would be the Stoke game everyone was gutted about, and quite understandably.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I'm not saying we have a god-given right, I'm saying it's reasonable to be particularly gutted about it, as it was recent, pivotal, and eminently winnable both on paper and on the day.



That's a very good way of putting it. Clearly it would be the Stoke game everyone was gutted about, and quite understandably.

It would be, if Stoke at home was a comparable fixture to Blackburn away. Which it's not.

 

[Bloxy]

Again, I'm not denying that all dropped points, going back to Burnley or whenever, are equally important in us not winning the league. But there's still a reason why the Blackburn result hurts more, which is that at that point, after all the poor performances and dropped points, even after the pathetic capitulation to Chelsea at OT, we were still right in there. It was still do-able. And we let it slip, against a very average side who didn't play very well. It's just a real shame.

I don't know how else to get it across... it's like you take a girl out, and make a series of stupid errors, but despite all that you win her round again, she still likes you even if she's not completely swept off her feet. Then you're ready to make your move, and you just... don't, and then suddenly it's too late.



That was our own fault though (Fergie's).

bit far-fetched, but I agree that not only would a draw at OT secured us one more point and at the same time took 3 points from them, it would have given us the confidence and dented theirs because we would have matched them without Rooney. Yes Blackburn away would have been great, but we were willing to take a draw at citeh, so that evens itself out for me.

a draw at home against chelsea would have sealed it I think.

 

[Plechazunga]

I agree that the Chelsea one was the killer. It was the manner of the capitulation more than anything. We're as good as them, basically, we lacked Rooney but were at home. It was all up for grabs.

It would be, if Stoke at home was a comparable fixture to Blackburn away. Which it's not.

Well it deals with the first point of your OP, that blaming losing the league on a single fixture is idiocy.

 

[redpie]

The manner of going out to Bayern Munich at OT after going 3-0 up was the real killing blow for us in the Prem.

 

[Fletcher's Jilted Lover]

They hadn't played us but they had played Chelsea and held them to a draw. Just like they did us.

I would say that makes their home record pretty fecking relevant to the discussion at hand, whether or not it means anything to you.

Wigan also beat Chelski and Arsenal at home this season, whilst we hammered Wigan 4-0. Relevant indeed.

 

[Sir A1ex]

The manner of going out to Bayern Munich at OT after going 3-0 up was the real killing blow for us in the Prem.

May haveplayed its part, but it's impossible to say for definite. "The real killing blow" is taking it a bit far...

 

[Plechazunga]

It was the real killing blow in the sense that Fergie's shit decision-making on the day almost certainly lost us Rooney for the run-in.

 

[Sir A1ex]

It was the real killing blow in the sense that Fergie's shit decision-making on the day almost certainly lost us Rooney for the run-in.

I still think that's harsh - playing Rooney had exactly the desired effect. Going 3-0 in half an hour should have had us in the final, and then we'd all be praising the decisions, perfectly accepting of the fact that we'd missed Rooney in the league.

 

[Moultz]

Beating 3 teams by 7 goals this season alongside maximum points from the fixtures against the 3 other top teams in the land is a great achievement.

Its still on tho until the final whisltle next sunday.

 

[B Cantona]

I still think that's harsh - playing Rooney had exactly the desired effect. Going 3-0 in half an hour should have had us in the final, and then we'd all be praising the decisions, perfectly accepting of the fact that we'd missed Rooney in the league.

I presume Plech is more on about keeping the player on for 30 minutes or so when he was clearly crocked having turned his ankle again

Could be wrong though, Plech does usually disagree with me so it's silly of me to assume we're on the same wavelength!

 

[Sir A1ex]

I presume Plech is more on about keeping the player on for 30 minutes or so when he was clearly crocked having turned his ankle again

Yeah, that was a bit dumb

 

[MrMarcello]

Have you decided to spend the day stating the bleeding obvious?

I've no idea what point you're making other than scoring a goal turns a nil all draw into a one nil win. I agree. Well done.

As for the title being decided by us failing to beat Blackburn, that remains a spastic way of summing the season up. Claiming the whole season swings on one game (especially when that game isn't even between the two contenders) is daft to begin with, but when that one game is a fixture in which both United and Chelsea got the same result - within weeks of each other - then that claim goes beyond daft into downright thick.

That poster of the year thing has really got you believing your opinion is the be all end all on this forum.

 

[B Cantona]

That poster of the year thing has really got you believing your opinion is the be all end all on this forum.

Hey, I don't even need a poster of the year award to think that Marcello

 

[KOV]

Yes we played badly in the first 45 at OT just as they played badly in the first 45 at SB. I was upset with the team's performance but did they really deserve the six points from those two games?

no chance in hell....

 

[Vinay]

Drogba offside goal.

That's the decider!

 

[Escobar]

That's the decider!

No. Its too easy to blame the officials. Plus, we played so shit, we didnt even deserve one point

 

[Julian Denny]

That's the decider!

No we had our share of luck in that game. Whatever had gone before we needed a result against Chelsea to more or less secure the league. A win might have finished them off and a draw would have meant our destiny was still in our hands. Instead we allowed them to dictate play for crucial periods, mainly because our midfield wasn't up to scratch and we defended badly - certainly for Cole's goal. Without Rooney, there was no real plan B and we were pretty clueless upfront for the most part. We really lost the league there and then. It simply was not a championship winning performance - far from it.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

It was the real killing blow in the sense that Fergie's shit decision-making on the day almost certainly lost us Rooney for the run-in.

Almost certainly? That's a bit of a wild guess, isn't it?

The damage was done the moment he turned his ankle for the second time in a week.

Keeping him on for another half hour or so might not have made any difference at all. I don't know how anyone can claim it was that decision which "almost certainly" kept him out of the run-in.

I think it might have cost us that particular game (for which I blame Rooney as much as the manager, if you're not fit to play you should call for a sub - it's unprofessional and selfish to do otherwise) but I don't know how anyone can claim with certainty that those 30 minutes made the difference between Rooney playing against Chelsea/Blackburn or not.

 

[Name Changed]

That's the decider!

Not, it's not.

They were 1-0 up as it was.

The reason Chelsea are about to win the league this season is because they have been overall the best team.

We can nit pick at results like Villa at home or Burnley away, but Chelsea could do the same with some bad results that they have got. Their record against the original top 4 has been astounding, whilst ours has been average, yet we are only a point behind. They have dropped more points in silly games than we have.

There is no one match that cost us the league.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

....That's the kind of dropped points that decide the title, not a point at Ewood Park.

In 1999 a point at that ground helped secure us the title. In short points dropped in the run in are most crucial to the out come of the race.

 

[Talking Vulture]

Wigan also beat Chelski and Arsenal at home this season, whilst we hammered Wigan 4-0. Relevant indeed.

Um, 5-0

 

[Plechazunga]

I still think that's harsh - playing Rooney had exactly the desired effect. Going 3-0 in half an hour should have had us in the final, and then we'd all be praising the decisions, perfectly accepting of the fact that we'd missed Rooney in the league.

I wouldn't. You don't feck around with Rooney. And it showed a real lack of confidence in the side, we should be able to get a home win without Rooney against virtually anyone except Barca.

I presume Plech is more on about keeping the player on for 30 minutes or so when he was clearly crocked having turned his ankle again

Yeah that in particular, though I'm also doubtful that he was fit in the first place.

Almost certainly? That's a bit of a wild guess, isn't it?

The damage was done the moment he turned his ankle for the second time in a week.

Keeping him on for another half hour or so might not have made any difference at all. I don't know how anyone can claim it was that decision which "almost certainly" kept him out of the run-in.

I think it might have cost us that particular game (for which I blame Rooney as much as the manager, if you're not fit to play you should call for a sub - it's unprofessional and selfish to do otherwise) but I don't know how anyone can claim with certainty that those 30 minutes made the difference between Rooney playing against Chelsea/Blackburn or not.

Come on, you're clutching at straws... the guy was alternately limping and trying desperately to sprint on a fecked ankle for half an hour.

He probably shouldn't have played, and he absolutely shouldn't have kept playing.

Blame Rooney if you like - that's bizarre to me, but it doesn't really make a difference to my point, which is that it was our own fault.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Come on, you're clutching at straws... the guy was alternately limping and trying desperately to sprint on a fecked ankle for half an hour.

He probably shouldn't have played, and he absolutely shouldn't have kept playing.

Blame Rooney if you like - that's bizarre to me, but it doesn't really make a difference to my point, which is that it was our own fault.

If he passed a fitness test beforehand (which he obviously did) then his availability for selection should not be in question.

I agree with you that he should have been subbed off as soon as went over on the same ankle again, if only because he was a passenger from that moment onwards - which handed the initiative right back to Bayern.

What I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on is your apparent certainty that he would have been available for Chelsea and/or Blackburn if he'd been subbed off earlier in the game.

 

[Plechazunga]

He'd have had a better chance, at any rate.

And a fitness test is not some absolute binary dividing line. These are human beings, Rooney would have been desperate to play, Fergie clearly wasn't confident about winning without him. It looked to most observers like he wasn't fit.

 

[noodlehair]

Don't know what everyone else has been saying in this thread, but I think the point with the Blackburn game isn't so much the result, as the fact they were there for the taking, and we just didn't seem that interested in pushing for the win. Almost like we were sulking, or had given up. I reckon if we'd drawn 0-0, but spent the last 20 minutes going all out for a winner, people would view it differently, but that for some reason isn't what happened.

It's the same (probably worse) with the Chelsea game at OT for me. Chelsea looked very much beatable, even with the team we had out, but we spent the first 45 minutes moping around, instead of trying to start on the front foot, and ended up having to chase it...we effectively threw away 3 months of hard work in 45 minutes, which was fecking annoying.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

He'd have had a better chance, at any rate.

And a fitness test is not some absolute binary dividing line. These are human beings, Rooney would have been desperate to play, Fergie clearly wasn't confident about winning without him. It looked to most observers like he wasn't fit.

Agreed. And it almost came off. The lift his presence gave the team and the crowd was a big factor in Bayern getting overrun in the first half hour.

At least it was right up until Rooney went over on the same ankle again. If he'd just broken down without being challenged I would accept that he wasn't fit to begin with but you could clearly see on replays that he turned his ankle while being kicked from behind. The type of thing that could feck up a perfectly healthy ankle. He was moving fine beforehand but was buggered from that moment onwards.

Players go into games carrying niggles all the time. That's why we have fitness tests and late decisions about team selection. It's very easy to retrospectively judge of the situation and imply that Rooney was only half-fit taking the pitch and his ankle gave way completely out of the blue but I don't think that's what happened. I think we were the victims of plain old bad luck.

 

[gaffs]

Agreed. And it almost came off. The lift his presence gave the team and the crowd was a big factor in Bayern getting overrun in the first half hour.

At least it was right up until Rooney went over on the same ankle again. If he'd just broken down without being challenged I would accept that he wasn't fit to begin with but you could clearly see on replays that he turned his ankle while being kicked from behind. The type of thing that could feck up a perfectly healthy ankle. He was moving fine beforehand but was buggered from that moment onwards.

Apparently, his ankle was very heavily strapped.

It was defiantly a turning point in our season - both in the league and the CL.

A team like United have to be able to cope in big games without their best player - we haven’t been able to do that in the crucial games this season.

 

[Shimo]

Apparently, his ankle was very heavily strapped.

It was defiantly a turning point in our season - both in the league and the CL.

A team like United have to be able to cope in big games without their best player - we haven’t been able to do that in the crucial games this season.

We've failed with him more times than without. You could look at the the games he missed against Chelsea and Blackburn became crucial because we failed in games earlier.

That's why all the games are crucial. Don't leave it up to the end and think well we'll just win our games at the end, when anything can happen

 

[gaffs]

We've failed with him more times than without. You could look at the the games he missed against Chelsea and Blackburn became crucial because we failed in games earlier.

That's why all the games are crucial. Don't leave it up to the end and think well we'll just win our games at the end, when anything can happen

Its not really the way it works though.

Sure, 3 point are 3 points, at the start or end of the season, but if you loose away to Burnley at the start of the season, you have all season to make up for the loss and you know that your title rivals will slip up at some point.

If you slip up at the end of the season, then your fecked.

We slipped up against Blackburn and Chelsea. If Rooney was fit, or we had an adequate replacement, then i think we would have collected at least 2 more points against Blackburn - maybe got something against Chelsea.

 

[Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber]

Its not really the way it works though.

Sure, 3 point are 3 points, at the start or end of the season, but if you loose away to Burnley at the start of the season, you have all season to make up for the loss and you know that your title rivals will slip up at some point.

If you slip up at the end of the season, then your fecked.

We slipped up against Blackburn and Chelsea. If Rooney was fit, or we had an adequate replacement, then i think we would have collected at least 2 more points against Blackburn - maybe got something against Chelsea.

Exactly. It's points dropped in a run in that ultimately cost you a league trophy.