"If only we'd beaten Blackburn..."

Sir A1ex

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I have a bit of an old fashioned view on this. If you can 't beat your main rival/s then you don't deserve to win it. Yes I know we won it last year after the terrible result against Pool at OT and having lost to them at Anfield, but the point is up to the Chelsea game we had the title in our own hands. Some were even saying Chelsea were finished at that point. We were one point ahead of them going into that game. Had we just drawn it we would have still been ahead but instead we found ourselves two points adrift.

Obviously throughout the season there are going to be strange results for all teams but when it came down to a game like that we needed to get a result.
Many will say we were robbed with the Drogba goal but eqaully Macheda's could have been ruled out for handball and Neville was fortunate not to concede a penalty. So the luck was evenly distributed. Perhaps Chelsea's elimination from the ECL gave them the edge - particularly as the match against them came directly after the gruelling Bayern first leg in which, crucially, Rooney was injured. However, by now, we should have had plenty of experience in coping with those situations. Whatever - we should have matched Chelsea in that game at the very least, seeing how it was crucial to our league chances. Instead for the most part they dictated proceedings.

That was were it was lost, I think.
I wouldn't say the luck was even - we had better penalty shouts, and the offside was just ridiculously blatant, whereas Macheda's handball tooke several replays to even decide on. But we didn't play well enough, especially first half.

On the other hand though, we played very well at Stamford Bridge and were gneuinely unlucky to come away with nothing.
 

Donkey's Ears

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I get why people are frustrated by the focus on Blackburn but I don't get why the Chelsea results are used as an argument for how Chelsea deserve the title.

They took six points from those games and we took none. I would say that in the first game, we edged it and got very unlucky with having an absolute homer of a ref who gave us nothing. It didn't cost us a victory but it certainly cost us defeat. Equally, at home, yes we played badly, but we also got unlucky in that the first (and most obvious) penalty decision went against us and they got a blatantly (you almost never see those allowed anymore) offside goal. One half of good football against us (the first half at Old Trafford) doesn't mean they deserved both games. Not by a long shot. All it would it take is one of those defeats to be a draw and we're back on top. No one is saying we were denied a six point haul by the officiating but it's pretty conservative to estimate it cost us one point and therefore a swing of three points.

The SB game still rankles with me and had we scored an offside goal like that you can believe the fuss would still be continuing.
 

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The way we played against Chelsea still bothers me... shit scared and not up to it. Cant say Chelsea doenst deserve it. We had a good chance, we didnt take it
 

Donkey's Ears

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Yes we played badly in the first 45 at OT just as they played badly in the first 45 at SB. I was upset with the team's performance but did they really deserve the six points from those two games?
 

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I have a bit of an old fashioned view on this. If you can 't beat your main rival/s then you don't deserve to win it. Yes I know we won it last year after the terrible result against Pool at OT and having lost to them at Anfield, but the point is up to the Chelsea game we had the title in our own hands. Some were even saying Chelsea were finished at that point. We were one point ahead of them going into that game. Had we just drawn it we would have still been ahead but instead we found ourselves two points adrift.

Obviously throughout the season there are going to be strange results for all teams but when it came down to a game like that we needed to get a result.
Many will say we were robbed with the Drogba goal but eqaully Macheda's could have been ruled out for handball and Neville was fortunate not to concede a penalty. So the luck was evenly distributed. Perhaps Chelsea's elimination from the ECL gave them the edge - particularly as the match against them came directly after the gruelling Bayern first leg in which, crucially, Rooney was injured. However, by now, we should have had plenty of experience in coping with those situations. Whatever - we should have matched Chelsea in that game at the very least, seeing how it was crucial to our league chances. Instead for the most part they dictated proceedings.

That was were it was lost, I think.
Perhaps?

We've repeatedly dropped points the weekend after European aways, against teams much weaker than Chelsea. It would have been great to buck the trend and put in a really big performance but the physical/mental fatigue of getting the runaround in Munich came back to haunt us.

The timing of that fixture was a huge boost to Chelsea and it really fecked us, just like the timing of their game against Liverpool.
 

Enigma_87

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It is funny how everybody is focussing on drawing away to Blackburn (13th in the league, 3 home defeats all season, average less than one goal conceded at home).

To me, the following results are all worse:


losing to relegated Burnley
conceding 3 goals on route to losing to Everton and Fulham
drawing at home to Sunderland
losing at home to Villa
Disagree.

Burnley away was in the opening months of the season. You can bounce back from that as the season is pretty long. We started pretty well unlike the 3 years before(6 wins in 7 matches or so).

Same goes for Villa, Sunderland and Fulham.

If we go back to our fixtures and say we lost the title there - it should be B'burn or Chavs home. As Chavs would've lost it against Tottenham, if we were to win against Blackburn.

If you compare it to lets say a 3km marathon, the sprint for the final is always the most important part. Not the beginning where you can trip or stumble.

After we lost to Chavs, Blackburn away threw us out of contention. That meant that Chavs should've lost 2 matches(or draw one) with 3-4 left.

It's not like there was 7 months to be played and wait for a mistake(in the case of Burnley and Sunderland)
 

Plechazunga

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Although obviously it's the results over the whole season that count, the run-in is a test of nerve and belief under great pressure. When the teams are neck and neck with a few games to go, it makes sense to look at those games in particular.

I can understand why people are fixated on the Blackburn match. It sticks in the craw because after the Chelsea match all seemed lost, but then we were handed a lifeline. We failed to take it, despite being easily the better side.

For me it's worse because had Fergie not played Rooney in the Bayern match, and then insanely kept him on when clearly injured, he would probably have played and we would probably have won.

But it's only relevant at all because we capitulated so utterly in the Chelsea match. I don't care about the refereeing decisions, they outplayed us at home, we were completely feeble and lacking in belief. That's what handed them the league.
 

Pogue Mahone

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The people fixating on the Blackburn result are massively under-estimating how difficult that fixture was and how good Blackburn are at home.

What I find strange about this misconception is that Chelsea played the same fixture - with the same result - so recently. The comparison is easily made. Ditto the whole "test of nerve" stuff. We failed to "hold our nerve" against Blackburn no worse than the team which looks likely to win the league.
 

Plechazunga

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It doesn't matter what Chelsea did. We had it in our hands and we blew it because we couldn't beat Blackburn.

Sunderland have an almost identical home record to Blackburn's, we beat them without much bother yesterday. It's hard to pull off away wins like that consistently, but that's what we had to do in the run-in to win the league, and we did, except for the Blackburn game.
 

Shimo

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Most will agree that the team that wins the title at the end of the season is because of their performance over a 38 game season and as such deserve it.

To point to one particular game is a bit insincere to why we play in the league, to why we cherish being the champions of England over the champions of Europe more (noting that I think we screwed it up at Burnley).

There are many games/incidents over the season anyone can point at unlike in the CL. Not only our games but, Chelsea games. Anyone still remember on opening day Drogba's pass that went in to beat Hull at the death?

There are ifs littered across the season. The Blackburn game was just one of the many.
 

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Perhaps?

We've repeatedly dropped points the weekend after European aways, against teams much weaker than Chelsea. It would have been great to buck the trend and put in a really big performance but the physical/mental fatigue of getting the runaround in Munich came back to haunt us.

The timing of that fixture was a huge boost to Chelsea and it really fecked us, just like the timing of their game against Liverpool.
That's true so probably we haven't found a way of handling that despite staying over an all that whereas before we returned straight after. Obviously the Rooney injury was a big blow but the fact that we'd relied on him so much was probably an accident waiting to happen. Nevertheless we should have been able to put up a better showing considering the vital nature of the game. I thought at the time starting Neville, Giggs and Scholes together in such a fixture was a bit of a risk. Also with Park in an unaccustomed floating role behind Berbatov. Where was Carrick ? I thought our midfield was weaker than normal and that allowed Chelsea to dictate. Considering they also had players out and didn't even start Drogba, it rather confirmed the view that they have a stronger squad. Does that count as further luck on their part or better planning ?

Nevertheless, it's all history now and no good arguing over things that can't be changed. They just about deserve the title and we'll just have to accept it.
 

Donkey's Ears

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But it's only relevant at all because we capitulated so utterly in the Chelsea match. I don't care about the refereeing decisions, they outplayed us at home, we were completely feeble and lacking in belief. That's what handed them the league.
They outplayed us for one half. In four halves of football, I would say we edged three and they dominated one. Yet it led to six points to them. And some of that swing was highly influenced by referees.

At the end of the day, shit happens I understand, but if we do lose by one point it is hard not to focus on individual games or moments. For me, far worse than the Blackburn game are the Chelsea games. And yes I was pissed off at our strangely passive opening to the OT game but you would have thought they shots cleared off the line, VDS playing a blinder, goals disallowed to hear some of the descriptions of the game.
 

Donkey's Ears

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We were pathetic against Chelsea.
Yes in the first half at OT. But I am trying to put their haul of six points in perspective. One bad half - no matter the significance - does not equate to some divine right to a championship. My point is simple: they played badly at home and got away with it thanks to some weak refereeing. The same is true for us except that we didn't get any benefit of home advantage in terms of the referee and in fact got one huge incompetent decision against us.

All it would take is one of those games to have ended in a draw (which would not have been 'unfair') and the title is in our hands. It's why I am focussing on the two games as a whole.
 

Plechazunga

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True enough, and as I said no-one disputes that results over the season are equally important, but the run-in has a special significance because it's such a test of nerve and belief. Despite losing rather unfairly at Stamford Bridge, when it came to the business end we just had to turn up against them at home, and we'd have won the league. And we didn't. And then we were given another lifeline, and we blew it again. That - and the fact that they're recent - are why those results stick in the craw.
 

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This has been a regular refrain on here and it's doing my fecking head in.

Blaming a single result for a whole season's campaign is stupid enough but the idiocy of this slogan is compounded by the game that's going on right now.

If Chelsea match our result at Anfield we'd be going into the final week as hot favourites to win the title. feck it, even if they only go better than us - and draw - we'd still be in the driving seat next weekend.

Our draw away at Blackburn was by no means the worst result this season and we picked up the same amount of points that Chelsea achieved in the exact same frigging fixture. So if you're going to have a whine about single games if/when Chelsea finish ahead of us, let's at least try to focus on fixtures where they gained some points on us, shall we? Thank you.
Sure, you cant put it down to one game, but towards the end of the season, you have to win games like Blackburn away.
 

Donkey's Ears

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True enough, and as I said no-one disputes that results over the season are equally important, but the run-in has a special significance because it's such a test of nerve and belief. Despite losing rather unfairly at Stamford Bridge, when it came to the business end we just had to turn up against them at home, and we'd have won the league. And we didn't. And then we were given another lifeline, and we blew it again. That - and the fact that they're recent - are why those results stick in the craw.
But one could argue that we did 'turn up' as much as they did in the SB game.

Other than though I take your point.
 

Pogue Mahone

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True enough, and as I said no-one disputes that results over the season are equally important, but the run-in has a special significance because it's such a test of nerve and belief. Despite losing rather unfairly at Stamford Bridge, when it came to the business end we just had to turn up against them at home, and we'd have won the league. And we didn't. And then we were given another lifeline, and we blew it again. That - and the fact that they're recent - are why those results stick in the craw.
Since when did any team have a flawless run-in? Silly points are invariably dropped at this point in the season. The trick is to try to keep them to a minimum. Both Chelsea and United dropped points at Ewood Park, Chelsea also got overturned by Spurs. That's the sort of shit happens this time of year. What you can't ignore is that Chelsea had two really tough games in the run-in but these two tough games were perfectly timed for them.

They managed to beat us (after tiring European away) and Liverpool (after exhausting European semi-final - on a fecking Thursday) when we lost the equivalent fixtures (unluckily) at Stamford Bridge and to a much more fired up Liverpool team at Anfield. 6 points difference right there.

That's the kind of dropped points that decide the title, not a point at Ewood Park.
 

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We were pathetic against Chelsea.
We completely outplayed them at Stamford Bridge, we didn't exactly have our shooting boots on during that time, but we did more than enough to take at least a draw, and Chelsea were extremely lucky to come away from that match with maximum points. So many bad decisions in that match, it leaves me speechless.

Old Trafford, it was a bit different. I thought we played better in the 2nd half that day, and could have come away again with at least a point. We didn't play as well as we did at their ground, but we didn't seem to have the advantages at home in the way they did at the Bridge.

I know there have been matches we've been shite, and of course at the end of the season, you'll point to those matches but on the flip side, you can also point to the matches where decisions have undone you, like the Chelsea matches. I don't think Chelsea deserved to take maximum points from both matches, I really don't.
 

Sarni

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The people fixating on the Blackburn result are massively under-estimating how difficult that fixture was and how good Blackburn are at home.

What I find strange about this misconception is that Chelsea played the same fixture - with the same result - so recently. The comparison is easily made. Ditto the whole "test of nerve" stuff. We failed to "hold our nerve" against Blackburn no worse than the team which looks likely to win the league.
Thing is, we knew well coming into that game that we had to win to put pressure on Chelsea or else it would be (almost) over. Instead we went into that game like we didn't care much and surprisingly, Blackburn looked uninterested too. That game was there for taking but we bottled it and let Chelsea go 4 points ahead, which at that point called for a miracle for us to be back in it.

Though our 1-0 win at City was completely unexpected for me so I can't really complain. I thought it'd be reverse results with us drawing at City and winning comfortably at Ewood Park.
 

Pogue Mahone

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Thing is, we knew well coming into that game that we had to win to put pressure on Chelsea or else it would be (almost) over. Instead we went into that game like we didn't care much and surprisingly, Blackburn looked uninterested too. That game was there for taking but we bottled it and let Chelsea go 4 points ahead, which at that point called for a miracle for us to be back in it.

Though our 1-0 win at City was completely unexpected for me so I can't really complain. I thought it'd be reverse results with us drawing at City and winning comfortably at Ewood Park.
That's bollocks though.

We were all over Blackburn in the first half. They came back into it after half-time - when they stuck Dunn in midfield - but we obviously didn't go into that game "like we didn't care".
 

MrMarcello

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The people fixating on the Blackburn result are massively under-estimating how difficult that fixture was and how good Blackburn are at home.

What I find strange about this misconception is that Chelsea played the same fixture - with the same result - so recently. The comparison is easily made. Ditto the whole "test of nerve" stuff. We failed to "hold our nerve" against Blackburn no worse than the team which looks likely to win the league.
Chelsea scored a goal at least. United didn't at all. One goal was all United needed that day as the keeper and defense did its part. For me it's much easier to accept a score draw than a scoreless draw.
 

MrMarcello

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That's the kind of dropped points that decide the title, not a point at Ewood Park.
If United score one goal at Blackburn what table position would they sit today? :smirk:

As Plech stated, United were handed a lifeline and threw it away. All results matter, but when it comes to the business end of a tight race dropping points decides the race ultimately. Yes they should have done better against Burnley, Villa, etc., or even Chelsea at home, but a scoreless draw in a potential title changing match?
 

Crerand Legend

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Everyone has valid points.

But scenario this...

Chelsea draw/lose to Wigan but United fail to defeat Stoke.

Would that lose the league in one match?

Or would people be pointing out Burnley away, Villa home, etc?
Something to think about all right
 

Pogue Mahone

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Three points is three points.

One goal at Ewood is two more points than the one obtained.

Which today would have United in first.

Simple.
Have you decided to spend the day stating the bleeding obvious?

I've no idea what point you're making other than scoring a goal turns a nil all draw into a one nil win. I agree. Well done.

As for the title being decided by us failing to beat Blackburn, that remains a spastic way of summing the season up. Claiming the whole season swings on one game (especially when that game isn't even between the two contenders) is daft to begin with, but when that one game is a fixture in which both United and Chelsea got the same result - within weeks of each other - then that claim goes beyond daft into downright thick.
 

Sir A1ex

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At the end of the day, presuming we both win next weekend, there are 6 different matches this season in which scoring just one more goal would have won us the title. It doesn't get a lot closer than that.
 

Fletcher's Jilted Lover

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The people fixating on the Blackburn result are massively under-estimating how difficult that fixture was and how good Blackburn are at home. .
People are fixating on the Blackburn game because it really wasn't a difficult fixture. We had the defence to cope with everything thrown at us, although, that wasn't really much, and we should've had the quality to create chances and win the game. They're not a great side, and their home record means nothing to me, seeing as they hadn't played us. Sunderland also had a reputation for having a good home record, we went there, dominated the game, create chances, and should've won by a greater margin.
 

Pogue Mahone

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People are fixating on the Blackburn game because it really wasn't a difficult fixture. We had the defence to cope with everything thrown at us, although, that wasn't really much, and we should've had the quality to create chances and win the game. They're not a great side, and their home record means nothing to me, seeing as they hadn't played us. Sunderland also had a reputation for having a good home record, we went there, dominated the game, create chances, and should've won by a greater margin.
They hadn't played us but they had played Chelsea and held them to a draw. Just like they did us.

I would say that makes their home record pretty fecking relevant to the discussion at hand, whether or not it means anything to you.
 

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They hadn't played us but they had played Chelsea and held them to a draw. Just like they did us.

I would say that makes their home record pretty fecking relevant to the discussion at hand, whether or not it means anything to you.
And they have just beaten Arsenal at home as well. One of the trickier away games outside the top 4/5.
 

Plechazunga

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Since when did any team have a flawless run-in? Silly points are invariably dropped at this point in the season. The trick is to try to keep them to a minimum. Both Chelsea and United dropped points at Ewood Park, Chelsea also got overturned by Spurs. That's the sort of shit happens this time of year. What you can't ignore is that Chelsea had two really tough games in the run-in but these two tough games were perfectly timed for them.

They managed to beat us (after tiring European away) and Liverpool (after exhausting European semi-final - on a fecking Thursday) when we lost the equivalent fixtures (unluckily) at Stamford Bridge and to a much more fired up Liverpool team at Anfield. 6 points difference right there.

That's the kind of dropped points that decide the title, not a point at Ewood Park.
Again, I'm not denying that all dropped points, going back to Burnley or whenever, are equally important in us not winning the league. But there's still a reason why the Blackburn result hurts more, which is that at that point, after all the poor performances and dropped points, even after the pathetic capitulation to Chelsea at OT, we were still right in there. It was still do-able. And we let it slip, against a very average side who didn't play very well. It's just a real shame.

I don't know how else to get it across... it's like you take a girl out, and make a series of stupid errors, but despite all that you win her round again, she still likes you even if she's not completely swept off her feet. Then you're ready to make your move, and you just... don't, and then suddenly it's too late.

The Chief said:
Our dramatic loss of Rooney in that period killed us.
Couldn't agree more.
That was our own fault though (Fergie's).