I'll take it you no longer have any valuable argument?Give it a rest. You're fooling no one but yourself.
You're a fan boy of the UAE project. You couldn't make it any more obvious
If Pep leaves City without winning the CL, would he have been a success or failure?
- Thread starter Fortitude
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There Ain't no argument sir.
Pep has failed to secure a champions league title. In that regards he is a failure. That's reality.
You can say "oh but he got to the semi finals", or " oh but he is respected", or "oh but he made City the favourites" or whatever , it makes no difference. He has failed. Failed to ever win the champions league at City, so he's a champions league failure at City.
And you are a City project fan.
No big deal pal but you've been rumbled.
Keep the pretence up though by all means if you so fancy. Makes no difference to us.
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Haha, exactly
If your answer is "probably all of them", I will tell you the word "probably" is not well used here. It is not a matter of probability. You either know the answer or you don't. If your answer is "all of them", what I have to say to that is: "that's not true".
Doesn't imply they were losing to much weaker opposition for six seasons straight while having a huge budget like Guardiola had.
adexkola said:
Yeah but when it's Fergie or Don Carlo or Heynekes, their stumbles in the competition are explained away with heavy dollops of nuance (foreigner rule/shit happens/players didn't convert, the manager can't actually force his team to score)... Of course when you bring such nuance into this thread you get accused of being a City fan...
Pep has failed to win the champions league for the sportswashing project. That's a fact. He has failed to do so.
No nuance or no miserable excuses can change that fact.
Yeah but when it's Fergie or Don Carlo or Heynekes, their stumbles in the competition are explained away with heavy dollops of nuance (foreigner rule/shit happens/players didn't convert, the manager can't actually force his team to score)... Of course when you bring such nuance into this thread you get accused of being a City fan...
Nonsense.
Pep has failed to win the champions league for the sportswashing project. That's a fact. He has failed to do so.
No nuance or no miserable excuses can change that fact.
And he has failed to win it as well for Bayern München before, who just won the treble before he arrived and where one of the consistently strongest teams in the CL in the last decade.
Fergie didn't spend a fraction on any of his teams of what Pep has. Not a fraction.
Well he manages in the English premier league and the ultimate goal for all the teams in the league is to win it. That's why he came in the first please, the champions League is just a bonus you pick up while getting to the top of the premier league. So he is a success.
Well he manages in the UEFA champions league and the ultimate goal for all the teams in the competition is to win it. That's why he came in the first please, the Premier League is just a bonus you pick up while qualifying for the CL. So he is a failure.
Works that way as well
He wasn't brought here for the Champions league, he was brought here to be city's manager to win the premier league. Where did you hear that he was brought here for the Champions league?Well he manages in the UEFA champions league and the ultimate goal for all the teams in the competition is to win it. That's why he came in the first please, the Premier League is just a bonus you pick up while qualifying for the CL. So he is a failure.
Works that way as well
Pep's own statement after last years CL exit:
"We want to win the Champions League, of course. But when they called me they did not tell me we had to win the Champions League. Not even the Premier League.
They said they wanted to be competitors in all the competitions until the end, to be a team that for our fans is nice to watch and wins as many games as we can in all competitions. That is why they knocked on my door to come here. And we did it."
So if we follow him literally, he wasn't hired to win any trophys at all. He's right that City is competing well in all competitions and by this standard is a success, but in the PL they get it done while in the CL they don't.
Right so then either way he is a success because he didn't need to win the Champions as you say, so how can he be a failure?
Because we can set a different standard than he does himself to evaluate a managers career. Success or failure is always subjective, otherwise we wouldn't have this thread.
The whole level of spending overall has changed since that era. Chelsea and Arsenal signing players like Kepa and Pepe for the same amount we sold Cristiano Ronaldo in his peak for.
We were still a team that was taking the top talents like Rooney, Rio and Veron for what was considered high prices back then. If Ferguson was still managing, he'd definitely have the same resources but he'd be a lot more shrewd with the spending and not allow the club to waste the billions it did on terrible players...
Neither. Won too many leagues to be a failure but he kind of should be wining them with the squad and investment hes had. I'd say he's broken even and done as well as any decent manager would have. Its just hard to have any regard for Citys achievements.
He has won the league multiple times already that's a success in my book and he can win the Champions league in another club when leaves if he likes, that doesn't make him a failure here with city.
Technically, he spent a fraction…..
Anyone who thinks Pep’s overall time at City has been a failure is just being bitter, but if he just judged on the CL at City his time will be judged as a failure. Winning the best league in the world consistently with point totals that were unreachable years ago and making the team into the best team in Premier League history makes his time at City a success no matter what he does in Europe when it comes to his overall tenure .
We were something like the 5th highest spenders in England in the 10 years prior to Fergie winning his first European Cup, let alone all the sides from other countries who had spent more than us.
Even relative to the spending of the time, Fergie achieved far more with far less.
He didn't lose to much weaker opposition for six seasons straight. This kind of hyperbole just proves that your assessment is biased and you're not making a sober judgment of his achievements in context. He's reached a final where he lost to Chelsea and a semi final where he lost to Real Madrid. He's also lost to Klopp's Liverpool and Poch's Spurs. What's the record of the other City managers in the CL, who also had access to the resources? Winning the CL is tough. Winning it for the first time in a club's history is even tougher. Just ask PSG. Or Chelsea, who had numerous failures with top managers before Roberto DiMatteo of all people got over the line. Why him? It's a cup competition.
Re your first comment, you're welcome to parse through the records of said managers and determine exactly who it was that stopped them from winning more than 1 or 2 CLs in 20+ years of club management. I've already mentioned Fergie, which is more than enough as he is the best of all time.
Well winning the Cwc with Aberdeen probably falls into the bracket of one of the most gigantic feats (beating Real and Bayern on the way) in the history of football and I cant imagine Pep pulling that off in a million years. So yeah I think SAF probably regrets not winning another one but his total tally of Euro trophies stacks up to 4 but he won 3 here. And he didnt even play the CL between 1986 and 1994
What?
Where did you hear he wasn't brought to City for the Champs League?
What I heard is he was brought in to make commercials for the dictatorahip of Abu Dhabi to paint over the keeping all women as second rate citizens and legal targets for violence, imprisoning and torturing human rights defenders and journalists, keeping migrant workers in practical slavery, leading aggressive warfare in Libya and Yemen, and giving long jail sentences to people who make love to the wrong people.
I’d say, wether he leads City to a CL win or not, that will be his legacy there, as that is quite literally his job.
Two managers before Pep both won the PL. If Klopp never arrived in the PL Pellegrini would have another 2 or 3 PL titles by now. The owners wouldn't have had the foresight of knowing Klopp was coming.
But Pellegrini was fired. Why?
Unfortunately I don't think it will be because the football world doesn't really care.
Yeah agree.
Any manager at one of the worlds big spenders is hired with an ambition of winning the champs league.
If ETH can get us back to some sort of competitive level the same expectancy will slowly return.
Sure I've heard Pep talk about his main goal of bringing a CL to the club and he was referencing the owner.
Haland will probably help bring the CL sadly
Haland will probably help bring the CL sadly
I’m not sure about that. The football world is many people. Some don’t care what Guardiola’s real function is, to be sure, but it’s clear some do care as well. I think the reality of it will see to that it will be impossible to entirely forget.
You can fool all the people some of the time … etc
Neither of them achieved the level of domestic dominance Pep achieved in England.
And Pellegrini left because of a better manager present in the market, not because he failed in CL.
Agreed, you don't turn down a Pep when he's on the market (and has no issues with sportwashing national injustices). But will the owners have thought "great we have Pep now, it means we will win two additional PL titles above and beyond Pellegrini. We'll be happy enough with that"?
It's not just two additional titles though, is it ? As I said Pep achieved ridiculous level of domestic domination on almost all trophies in England and also in PL it's ridiculous to look back at it. Guy is winning the league +90 points almost every year and without any sort of competition bar one team in one or two years. He won a domestic treble, and ton of domestic cups. They might haven't found success in CL till now but City couldn't have dreamt of such level of dominance over English football under Pellegrini. He won the league once but actually didn't challenge for the title in his other 2 years.
I'm not arguing Pep hasn't won lots of domestic trophies, mainly against Rotherham FC, but in all honesty they don't mean much nowadays. Did you know Klopp won the domestic cup double last season? Nah, I've forgotten too because it's not what you spend billion(s) trying to win.
As for redefining the PL, yes Pep's broken the 100 points and 90 points barrier repeatedly. So has Klopp. Does it mean that much. Not really. If Pellegrini continued winning the PL with 85 points it would win you exactly the same thing, not more, not less.
So, back to the original point I'm making. The owners got Pep in to be happy they have two additional PL trophies. Great. Would the owners have preferred a CL? Feck no.
Klopp won the league only once though. Pep has won the league in 4 years out of 6 managing City, with +90 points in the majority of them. Pellegrini would not have managed this level of dominanc. As I said he didn't even challenge for the league in 2 of his 3 years at the club.I'm not arguing Pep hasn't won lots of domestic trophies, mainly against Rotherham FC, but in all honesty they don't mean much nowadays. Did you know Klopp won the domestic cup double last season? Nah, I've forgotten too because it's not what you spend billion(s) trying to win.
As for redefining the PL, yes Pep's broken the 100 points and 90 points barrier repeatedly. So has Klopp. Does it mean that much. Not really. If Pellegrini continued winning the PL with 85 points it would win you exactly the same thing, not more, not less.
So, back to the original point I'm making. The owners got Pep in to be happy they have two additional PL trophies. Great. Would the owners have preferred a CL? Feck no.
So I'll ask again: if he fails in the CL, again, assuming his squad remain fit, is he the success he was brought in to be?
How is the league supposed to be the barometer when everything in it is tilted towards you, particularly so when the actual giants are met on a bigger stage and are your equal in current pedigree and standing? The biggest scalps are not in the PL.
How is the league supposed to be the barometer when everything in it is tilted towards you, particularly so when the actual giants are met on a bigger stage and are your equal in current pedigree and standing? The biggest scalps are not in the PL.
He’s basically created the perfect PL team, how is that not a success?
I think they'll win it now.
He’d hardly be a failure. They’re dominating the league now just as much as we did, playing even better football. He’s created one of the best teams in the history of club football.
Still though, I guess if he doesn’t win the Champions League it won’t be a complete success. They’ve been the best team in Europe for a while now (despite what Michael Owen thinks finishing 2nd in the PL and CL means). Although the best team in Europe actually rarely wins the CL, it’d still be poor of them not to win it, especially given the fact he’s created the team by financially doping. I think they surely will this or next season.
Still though, I guess if he doesn’t win the Champions League it won’t be a complete success. They’ve been the best team in Europe for a while now (despite what Michael Owen thinks finishing 2nd in the PL and CL means). Although the best team in Europe actually rarely wins the CL, it’d still be poor of them not to win it, especially given the fact he’s created the team by financially doping. I think they surely will this or next season.
Even if he wins it people will turn around and say he's expected to win it with all that money he's spent.
The guy can't win, he's a victim of his own success and standards and there will always be people to find some fault with him whether he wins it or doesn't win it with city.
I think it's crazy to call him a failure just because he didn't win the CL and ignoring everything else he's done.
Yes I'm a massive pep fan boy I admit it.
The guy can't win, he's a victim of his own success and standards and there will always be people to find some fault with him whether he wins it or doesn't win it with city.
I think it's crazy to call him a failure just because he didn't win the CL and ignoring everything else he's done.
Yes I'm a massive pep fan boy I admit it.
They are winning it this season. Unless Haaland gets a bad injury.
His league titles make him a success though because 5 in 6 years (which they will make it this year and three in a row) is insane. They will go joint 4th with Everton with 8 league titles too.
However its not a good look if they crash out this season with Haaland now added.
His league titles make him a success though because 5 in 6 years (which they will make it this year and three in a row) is insane. They will go joint 4th with Everton with 8 league titles too.
However its not a good look if they crash out this season with Haaland now added.