Agree.
I'm sure the majority of us knew it would be tricky after SAF retired....
- Thread starter RetroStu
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
Alex99
Rehab's Pete Doherty
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- 16,093
It's frankly quite sickening the amount of people trying to pin our current situation on SAF. I'm certain he didn't want to leave the club as suddenly as he did, and it's not on him that the club hadn't prepared for that eventuality. By all accounts, we contacted many other options before Moyes about replacing him, but for various reasons, they weren't available or willing to take the job.
The way some are going on about it on here, you'd have thought SAF hadn't planned a single thing past the close of the 2012/13 season and that Moyes was entering the job blind. It's not SAF's fault that Moyes chose to disregard all of it and immediately bin the entire backroom team that could have guided him through it.
I don't think it's any coincidence that van Gaal signed Herrera and Shaw almost immediately after taking the job, while Moyes spent the summer chasing Fellaini and Baines. I think it's obvious that the midfield and the left-back position were highlighted as key areas to strengthen first, and Herrera and Shaw were top of the respective shortlists. Moyes disregarded that, as he did the entire backroom team, and instead chased his own targets in Fellaini and Baines. I think it's why we also saw Moyes chasing Thiago, that weird Herrera debacle, and the late bid for Coentrao.
I also think it's likely that SAF had advised Moyes to cash-in on the interest in Rooney, especially given the reports of him handing in a transfer request at the end of the previous season. I think it's reasonably likely that Bale was shortlisted as a target too, and I think some talks had likely taken place while SAF was still at the club, but it fell apart after he left. It's the only way I can rationalise Moyes' confidence in us doing a deal for Bale that summer, and the contract that was handed to Rooney midway through the season. Rooney's departure would have easily been offset by the arrival of Bale, but Moyes wanted to keep Rooney and sign Bale. I wouldn't be surprised if Rooney remaining at the club was a factor in the inability to get a deal for Bale done.
As for the rest of the squad, it wasn't at all a bad squad, and with the above transfers, would have been fairly formidable:
GK - de Gea, Lindegaard, Amos
DF - Rafael, Evra, Jones, Ferdinand, Evans, Smalling, Vidic, Shaw (likely departure of at least one of Fabio or Buttner)
MF - Giggs, Carrick, Herrera, Cleverley, Fletcher, Kagawa, and Nick Powell likely expected to play a part
FW - Bale (or even still Rooney), Hernandez, Nani, Young, Welbeck, van Persie, Valencia, Zaha, and Januzaj clearly ready to step up
Outside of that squad you've got Michael Keane, Jesse Lingard and James Wilson who I think would have all been tipped to step up sooner rather than later.
There, you have a world class goalkeeper, an aging but still top class backline surrounded by young talent, a midfield with a decent range of attributes, if still in need of a bit more quality (which may have been why Thiago was identified), and a very strong forward line. You're looking there at getting in a top class forward the following summer, likely a decent leader for the defense, and another midfielder. Nothing too drastic at all.
The squad was more than good enough to mount a title challenge, and certainly good enough to finish top 4 despite the loss of SAF. The hesitation to act on sacking Moyes until it was mathematically impossible to get Top 4 after a wasted summer was the next massive error, and has contributed massively to why we are where we are now.
To me, Moyes quite clearly disregarded a plan given to him by SAF and his backroom team. This then saw us fail to meet the minimum target of qualifying for the CL, and in fact, saw us miss out on Europe completely. LvG was then brought in, seemingly for lack of a better option, and due to the previous season's failings, and the previous summer's awful transfer window, far too much money was thrown at players that either weren't good enough, didn't want to be at the club, or both. We stumbled through his first season, but seemed to be on the brink of turning things around, but the completion of a half-arsed firesale over the two summer windows, combined with a litany of poor replacements left the squad utterly bereft of quality. Mourinho's tenure started with what seemed like a plan and a hope that the leopard had changed its spots, as it were, but it became apparent quite quickly that his star was fading and if anything, he was more set in his ways than ever. More poor signings, and more money wasted, and we find ourselves here today.
I'm not convinced that Solskjaer is the man to guide us back to the top long-term, but I also don't see what we gain by sacking him and trying to replace him at this time. Zidane hasn't shown to me that he's capable of turning a club like ours around, and Pochettino seems to have his eyes set firmly on the Madrid job, and Spurs have been almost as bad as United over the last six months. We might not be hitting our stride all the time, and our performances are often more frustrating than they are entertaining, but at least there's some semblance of a plan there. Our three summer signings are arguably our three best performers so far this season, and it's clear that we have areas in the squad that we want to strengthen, but only with the right players. I'd much rather we stick to that strategy, than revert to type of hiring a big-name, pragmatic manager, throw a ton of money at players in case they fit the bill, and once again cross our fingers. At the very least, we're laying a pretty good foundation, with young, hungry players, that all want to play attacking football, for whoever follows.
The way some are going on about it on here, you'd have thought SAF hadn't planned a single thing past the close of the 2012/13 season and that Moyes was entering the job blind. It's not SAF's fault that Moyes chose to disregard all of it and immediately bin the entire backroom team that could have guided him through it.
I don't think it's any coincidence that van Gaal signed Herrera and Shaw almost immediately after taking the job, while Moyes spent the summer chasing Fellaini and Baines. I think it's obvious that the midfield and the left-back position were highlighted as key areas to strengthen first, and Herrera and Shaw were top of the respective shortlists. Moyes disregarded that, as he did the entire backroom team, and instead chased his own targets in Fellaini and Baines. I think it's why we also saw Moyes chasing Thiago, that weird Herrera debacle, and the late bid for Coentrao.
I also think it's likely that SAF had advised Moyes to cash-in on the interest in Rooney, especially given the reports of him handing in a transfer request at the end of the previous season. I think it's reasonably likely that Bale was shortlisted as a target too, and I think some talks had likely taken place while SAF was still at the club, but it fell apart after he left. It's the only way I can rationalise Moyes' confidence in us doing a deal for Bale that summer, and the contract that was handed to Rooney midway through the season. Rooney's departure would have easily been offset by the arrival of Bale, but Moyes wanted to keep Rooney and sign Bale. I wouldn't be surprised if Rooney remaining at the club was a factor in the inability to get a deal for Bale done.
As for the rest of the squad, it wasn't at all a bad squad, and with the above transfers, would have been fairly formidable:
GK - de Gea, Lindegaard, Amos
DF - Rafael, Evra, Jones, Ferdinand, Evans, Smalling, Vidic, Shaw (likely departure of at least one of Fabio or Buttner)
MF - Giggs, Carrick, Herrera, Cleverley, Fletcher, Kagawa, and Nick Powell likely expected to play a part
FW - Bale (or even still Rooney), Hernandez, Nani, Young, Welbeck, van Persie, Valencia, Zaha, and Januzaj clearly ready to step up
Outside of that squad you've got Michael Keane, Jesse Lingard and James Wilson who I think would have all been tipped to step up sooner rather than later.
There, you have a world class goalkeeper, an aging but still top class backline surrounded by young talent, a midfield with a decent range of attributes, if still in need of a bit more quality (which may have been why Thiago was identified), and a very strong forward line. You're looking there at getting in a top class forward the following summer, likely a decent leader for the defense, and another midfielder. Nothing too drastic at all.
The squad was more than good enough to mount a title challenge, and certainly good enough to finish top 4 despite the loss of SAF. The hesitation to act on sacking Moyes until it was mathematically impossible to get Top 4 after a wasted summer was the next massive error, and has contributed massively to why we are where we are now.
To me, Moyes quite clearly disregarded a plan given to him by SAF and his backroom team. This then saw us fail to meet the minimum target of qualifying for the CL, and in fact, saw us miss out on Europe completely. LvG was then brought in, seemingly for lack of a better option, and due to the previous season's failings, and the previous summer's awful transfer window, far too much money was thrown at players that either weren't good enough, didn't want to be at the club, or both. We stumbled through his first season, but seemed to be on the brink of turning things around, but the completion of a half-arsed firesale over the two summer windows, combined with a litany of poor replacements left the squad utterly bereft of quality. Mourinho's tenure started with what seemed like a plan and a hope that the leopard had changed its spots, as it were, but it became apparent quite quickly that his star was fading and if anything, he was more set in his ways than ever. More poor signings, and more money wasted, and we find ourselves here today.
I'm not convinced that Solskjaer is the man to guide us back to the top long-term, but I also don't see what we gain by sacking him and trying to replace him at this time. Zidane hasn't shown to me that he's capable of turning a club like ours around, and Pochettino seems to have his eyes set firmly on the Madrid job, and Spurs have been almost as bad as United over the last six months. We might not be hitting our stride all the time, and our performances are often more frustrating than they are entertaining, but at least there's some semblance of a plan there. Our three summer signings are arguably our three best performers so far this season, and it's clear that we have areas in the squad that we want to strengthen, but only with the right players. I'd much rather we stick to that strategy, than revert to type of hiring a big-name, pragmatic manager, throw a ton of money at players in case they fit the bill, and once again cross our fingers. At the very least, we're laying a pretty good foundation, with young, hungry players, that all want to play attacking football, for whoever follows.
ryansgirl
Full Member
Unfortunately we can't excuse Sir Alex for supposedly leaving the club 'suddenly' - he knew at his age retirement was coming closer and of course Roy Keane was proved correct as he usually was/is despite some haters making him out to be a caricature instead of a hard but highly principled man.
The Glazers were able to take over United because of Sir Alex's ego and stubbornness in challenging the real owners of Rock of Gibraltar - the Magniers and their business partners. Magnier and co enabled their takeover, and had the Glazers not come it is likely Sir Alex would have stayed around longer - not so much - for a better transitional period.
I've always been annoyed at the apparent pushing of David Moyes by Sir Alex and he certainly had the delusion Moyes was a kind of version of him in his earlier days but what we know now is that he thought Pep Guardiola would be good as well as Klopp. Ed Woodward should have entrusted Sir Alex with trying to recruit Klopp - he might have been able to do it. The Moyes Farce which essentially sent United tumbling to where it is today because of its flow-on effects and consequences was largely due to the unfettered freedom he was given.
David Moyes who had won diddly squat was given carte blance - that was the fatal mistake I believe. Therefore the likes of Steve Round coming in - Phil Nev was fine as he was United -the sacking of success-aiding staff, basically giving a relative novice the freedom to tinker with a hugely successful, legendary institution. And we are still feeling those effects today.
The Glazers were able to take over United because of Sir Alex's ego and stubbornness in challenging the real owners of Rock of Gibraltar - the Magniers and their business partners. Magnier and co enabled their takeover, and had the Glazers not come it is likely Sir Alex would have stayed around longer - not so much - for a better transitional period.
I've always been annoyed at the apparent pushing of David Moyes by Sir Alex and he certainly had the delusion Moyes was a kind of version of him in his earlier days but what we know now is that he thought Pep Guardiola would be good as well as Klopp. Ed Woodward should have entrusted Sir Alex with trying to recruit Klopp - he might have been able to do it. The Moyes Farce which essentially sent United tumbling to where it is today because of its flow-on effects and consequences was largely due to the unfettered freedom he was given.
David Moyes who had won diddly squat was given carte blance - that was the fatal mistake I believe. Therefore the likes of Steve Round coming in - Phil Nev was fine as he was United -the sacking of success-aiding staff, basically giving a relative novice the freedom to tinker with a hugely successful, legendary institution. And we are still feeling those effects today.
RedDevilCanuck
Quite dreamy - blue eyes, blond hair, tanned skin
Rooney tried to tell everyone what was going on.
AneRu
Full Member
- Joined
- Jul 28, 2019
- Messages
- 3,194
Whatever did happen to enae the takeover we did maintain our success and he built another all conquering side just when it looked like Chelsea and Arsenal had built up dynasties. The man wasn't perfect but he did his part.Unfortunately we can't excuse Sir Alex for supposedly leaving the club 'suddenly' - he knew at his age retirement was coming closer and of course Roy Keane was proved correct as he usually was/is despite some haters making him out to be a caricature instead of a hard but highly principled man.
The Glazers were able to take over United because of Sir Alex's ego and stubbornness in challenging the real owners of Rock of Gibraltar - the Magniers and their business partners. Magnier and co enabled their takeover, and had the Glazers not come it is likely Sir Alex would have stayed around longer - not so much - for a better transitional period.
I've always been annoyed at the apparent pushing of David Moyes by Sir Alex and he certainly had the delusion Moyes was a kind of version of him in his earlier days but what we know now is that he thought Pep Guardiola would be good as well as Klopp. Ed Woodward should have entrusted Sir Alex with trying to recruit Klopp - he might have been able to do it. The Moyes Farce which essentially sent United tumbling to where it is today because of its flow-on effects and consequences was largely due to the unfettered freedom he was given.
David Moyes who had won diddly squat was given carte blance - that was the fatal mistake I believe. Therefore the likes of Steve Round coming in - Phil Nev was fine as he was United -the sacking of success-aiding staff, basically giving a relative novice the freedom to tinker with a hugely successful, legendary institution. And we are still feeling those effects today.
As for Moyes, he was a bad appointment and while Fergie did leave us with an aging squad it was not as bad as needing several windows to rectify. If Moyes hadn't dithered in 2013 and signed the players that the club wanted to sign like Thiago and Herrera instead of chasing unrealistic targets like Bale, Cesc and Ronaldo. But Moyes was here for just one season so his effect was minimal though shocking it was still retrievable. Van Gaal, on the other hand, was an unmitigated disaster for someone with such a reputation.
Van Gaal damaged us by gutting the squad of experienced useful players like Evans, Nani, Rafael and Van Persie whilst he got rid of players like Micheal Keane who were ready to step up then. The players he signed bar Blind and Herrera were awful and that has meant that we have into every transfer window, since then, needing a minimum of five players just to get the squad right. The Van Gaal era has reduced the margin for error in the market for his successors and this has made their jobs difficult because there was very little from his work that could be useful.