I'm sure the majority of us knew it would be tricky after SAF retired....

[Enigma_87]

I wonder in the long run, if losing Sir Alex or losing David Gill has had the most detrimental effect. Not to be-little Ferguson’s achievements, but just because of the sheer damage Woodward has done

Losing them both at the same time was disastrous.

 

[lon ball2]

I think that if we'd gone for Jose right away before he became broken, instead of Moyes and combined with the that winning mentality that the squad had, would have suited him down to the ground and we would still be challenging for the top 2.

Agree, he was the only one who had the self belief to fill the great mans shoes.

Side note - when did Klopp have the poor season at Dortmund? curious if it happened after turning us down...

 

[ATXRedDevil]

The damage was done before SAF left, IMO. We had severely underinvested in a time when transfer fees were much more reasonable. The club failed to anticipated the ridiculous inflation that came with the huge new tv rights deals and was left trying to fix years of underinvestment (our CM was particularly neglected) and was left to try to catch up in an inflated market. Moyes’ atrocious summer in the transfer market didn’t help and only compounded the problem.

you only have to look at some of the prices City paid for brilliant players around that time before the inflation kicked in while we were hanging out hats on recent success and not planning for the future. For a club with a former investment banker running the show, you would think we would have been more keenly aware of the macro economic environment in football and the new TV deal was going to district the market. Of course some of that wasn’t helped by the ridiculous sums paid by PSG for players, but back in the early-mid 10s you didn’t have mid table premier league clubs paying £40+ million for above average players, and that has nothing to do with PSG.

just really poor planning by the club. If half the money we spent since SAF retired was invested in the 2-3 years before years before he left, we’d be in a much better position, even if the other was was spread out after his retirement.

 

[FootyGirl88]

I wonder in the long run, if losing Sir Alex or losing David Gill has had the most detrimental effect. Not to be-little Ferguson’s achievements, but just because of the sheer damage Woodward has done

I would say Gill, at least with him football would be the #1 priority.

 

[Sir Scott McToMinay]

I would say Gill, at least with him football would be the #1 priority.

I wonder in the long run, if losing Sir Alex or losing David Gill has had the most detrimental effect. Not to be-little Ferguson’s achievements, but just because of the sheer damage Woodward has done

David Gill got a free ride out of SAF’s monumental managerial abilities.
Where was David Gill when it was clear SAF was going to step down in the near future? I always assumes there was some kind of a plan in place you know? Turns out there wasn’t.
Where was David Gill when players like Aguero, D.Silva, Hazard, Robben, Ribery were in the market?
What was David Gill even doing?
David Gill would’ve arguably been even worse than Woodward in the post SAF era.
SAF was even the one to tell Moyes he was the new United manager, for fecks sake.

David Gill did feck all by the looks of it, it was all Fergie.

 

[steffyr2]

It's amazing that the club was/is so threadbare behinds the scene. No one to select players when SAF/Gill left. No one to question the Moyes appointment! No DOF (and still 6 years on, no DOF).

No one to organize their departures so they didn't both leave at the same time.

Question -- when did they leave vs Woodward's start?

 

[Un4givableB]

David Gill got a free ride out of SAF’s monumental managerial abilities.
Where was David Gill when it was clear SAF was going to step down in the near future? I always assumes there was some kind of a plan in place you know? Turns out there wasn’t.
Where was David Gill when players like Aguero, D.Silva, Hazard, Robben, Ribery were in the market?
What was David Gill even doing?
David Gill would’ve arguably been even worse than Woodward in the post SAF era.
SAF was even the one to let Moyes know he was the new United manager, for fecks sake.

David Gill did feck all by the looks of it, it was all Fergie.

That was the 'no value in the market' period. Meaning no real money to compete with City & Chelsea and that's all the Glazers not David Gill.

 

[fps]

Should've been Mourinho to come in and maintain standards while modernising club, with someone else learning to be at least Assistant Manager going forward to keep the United traditions in place for the fans (Giggs?). Moyes and Woodward going after transfer targets was embarrassing.

 

[sammsky1]

By the time SAF and Gill both retired (on the same day), they had complete and telepathic control of the club. They were completely in sync with each other, knew each others duties and boundaries, and there was complete trust and zero politics between them. Together, they were one, and completely manifested 'what' Manchester United was.

I don't think fans realise the enormity of the organisational vacuum they left behind, and subsequent leaders have had to completely re create within that context. That situation was compounded further by Moyes decision to also rid of SAFs backroom staff, and by Woodward's desire to get more involved in the football side of the organisation. Over a period of sacked and new managers, so the organisation and culture has pivoted and evolved into where we are now.

Unlike some, I don't criticise Woodward's intent: he has invested heavily and tried to hire the best on the footballing side, whilst continuing to excel on the commercial side of the club. Unfortunately for him, he inherited the Moyes appointment, was not savvy soon enough to stop Moyes sacking SAFs backroom and has allowed his managers to make some very poor footballing decisions (eg extend Rooney contract, allow LVG to decimate the squad, not back Mourinho in his final year), and that seems to be the consistent area of weakness for him. Of course there is also no guarantee that had Woodward appointed a DoF of Football, like Txiki Begiristain, that this mess would have been avoided, but in not doing so, it's a stick he can now be beaten with.

However, Woodward now also has 10 years experience at Manchester United, 6 as CEO, and in that time he has been exposed to footballs top secrets and methods, he is no longer 'just an accountant' who knows fcuk all about football'. By now he should be a seasoned expert, able to frame and articulate a footballing vision, that his manager and support staff should execute. I really hope he contributed significantly to this new longer term strategy and is truly invested in it. Because he now has the experience to execute it.

Personally, I'm willing to wait til Guardiola leave Man City, but that's the moment we have to pounce and win the league the following season. Until then we should all be satisfied with gradual progress. I'm willing to give Woodward that last try: I think his motives are good, just need him now to perfectly execute.

 

[Chip Butty]

I honestly though it will be 2 or 3 rough odd years maximum. Of course turned out far worse than I expected.

How or why? What signs of continuity were given?

Far too many number two's and what you would call.... natural successors?....came and went. Where was the succession plan?

 

[Skills]

The reason it's so difficult is that we've failed to adapt after Sir Alex.

To this day, we're still desperately trying to get someone to stay here for another 20 years. What gives Manchester United the god given right to fluke another Sir Matt or Sir Alex, when it hasn't happened at the other European giants?

 

[lon ball2]

By the time SAF and Gill both retired (on the same day), they had complete and telepathic control of the club. They were completely in sync with each other, knew each others duties and boundaries, and there was complete trust and zero politics between them. Together, they were one, and completely manifested 'what' Manchester United was.

I don't think fans realise the enormity of the organisational vacuum they left behind, and subsequent leaders have had to completely re create within that context. That situation was compounded further by Moyes decision to also rid of SAFs backroom staff, and by Woodward's desire to get more involved in the football side of the organisation. Over a period of sacked and new managers, so the organisation and culture has pivoted and evolved into where we are now.

Unlike some, I don't criticise Woodward's intent: he has invested heavily and tried to hire the best on the footballing side, whilst continuing to excel on the commercial side of the club. Unfortunately for him, he inherited the Moyes appointment, was not savvy soon enough to stop Moyes sacking SAFs backroom and has allowed his managers to make some very poor footballing decisions (eg extend Rooney contract, allow LVG to decimate the squad, not back Mourinho in his final year), and that seems to be the consistent area of weakness for him. Of course there is also no guarantee that had Woodward appointed a DoF of Football, like Txiki Begiristain, that this mess would have been avoided, but in not doing so, it's a stick he can now be beaten with.

However, Woodward now also has 10 years experience at Manchester United, 6 as CEO, and in that time he has been exposed to footballs top secrets and methods, he is no longer 'just an accountant' who 'knows fcuk all about football'. By now he should be a seasoned expert, able to frame and articulate a footballing vision, that his manager's and support staff should execute. I really hope he contributed significantly to this new longer term strategy and is truly invested in it. Because he now has the experience to execute it.

Personally, Im willing to wait til Guardiola leave man City, but that's the moment we have to pounce and win the league the following season. Until the we should all be satisfied with gradual progress. Im willing to give Woodward that last try: I think his motives are good, just need him now to perfectly execute.

For sure Moyes’ decision to axe the backroom staff was tragic. I agree with you points about Woodward too, you only need to look at the progress Van der Sar has made with Ajax

 

[Skills]

For sure Moyes’ decision to axe the backroom staff was tragic. I agree with you points about Woodward too, you only need to look at the progress Van der Sar has made with Ajax

It's always baffling to me when people say this.

The only reason it was tragic was that Moyes' himself was incompetent. Phelan and Meulensteen weren't going to teach Moyes how to be a good manager for god's sake. It's not as if Phelan's teaching Solskjaer how to coach now.

Imagine if this point was raised when offering the job to Guardiola, Klopp or Poch. We'd you to coach but here's the catch, you have to use the coaches we already have at the club.

 

[Valar Morghulis]

When you look at our current state and how the transition was handled it's almost as if we're trapped in a Liverpool fan's dream the night the club announced Sir Alex would be retiring. How!? How the feck have they messed up this bad in such a short space of time, it's incomprehensible really.

 

[lon ball2]

It's always baffling to me when people say this.

The only reason it was tragic was that Moyes' himself was incompetent. Phelan and Meulensteen weren't going to teach Moyes how to be a good manager for god's sake. It's not as if Phelan's teaching Solskjaer how to coach now.

Imagine if this point was raised when offering the job to Guardiola, Klopp or Poch. We'd you to coach but here's the catch, you have to use the coaches we already have at the club.

Call it gut instinct but sometimes you can sense such decisions. I knew from that instant he would fail. Guardiola and his staff are different, they have proven themselves at the highest level, with the highest calibre of player. Phelan & Muelensteen we’re advisors and soundboards not teachers. You’d at least keep a couple of them if you haven’t managed at this level before, then move them on if there’s opposing views

Moyes and his staff told the best CB pairing in the history of the prem to study Jaglielka (sp)

Only the gk coach had any benefit on coaching. Ferguson never ran training, he just observed and made his choices. Moyes actually played the piggy in the middle in training.

 

[sammsky1]

It's always baffling to me when people say this.

The only reason it was tragic was that Moyes' himself was incompetent. Phelan and Meulensteen weren't going to teach Moyes how to be a good manager for god's sake. It's not as if Phelan's teaching Solskjaer how to coach now.

Imagine if this point was raised when offering the job to Guardiola, Klopp or Poch. We'd you to coach but here's the catch, you have to use the coaches we already have at the club.

Then you misunderstand the point.

The footballing side of the club was working perfectly well when SAF retired. And I think SAF's plan was that Moyes would allow the backroom to run the team for the first year or so, whilst he adjusted and got his hands around the club. I think that was implicit in decision to hire him, demonstrated by what SAF said in his final speech. He certainly did not expect Moyes to rip everything up and impose 'his will' from the first weeks.

In many ways, Moyes was apple's Tim Cook after Steve Jobs, who did an excellent job of evolution in the years after Job's death. If it had been me, I wouldn't have changed a thing for the first 100 days, just sat back and observed: the club had transfer plans in place, just allow that to play out, and let the team carry on as it had been left. He was given a contract that allowed him to only qualify for Champions League in his first season. I would then have exerted my personal views from 2nd season, and even then, it would be an evolution and not the revolution which he tried.

I think Moyes could have succeeded, had he decided to upskill his knowledge and skills and grow into the job, which senior leaders do all the time across industries. Instead he attempted to be 'the new big dick in town' which was unnecessary and demonstrated his narcissism and arrogance. As I wrote in my post above, Woodward was also not savvy enough at the time to realise, and by the time he did, serious damage had been done.

 

[fps]

Then you misunderstand the point.

The footballing side of the club was working perfectly well when SAF retired. And I think SAF's plan was that Moyes would allow the backroom to run the team for the first year or so, whilst he adjusted and got his hands around the club. I think that was implicit in decision to hire him, demonstrated by what SAF said in his final speech. He certainly did not expect Moyes to rip everything up and impose 'his will' from the first weeks.

If it had been me, I wouldn't have changed anything for the first 100 days, just sat back and observed: the club had transfer plans in place, just allow that to play out, and let the team carry on as it had been left. He was given a contract that allowed him to only qualify for Champions League in his first season. In some ways, he was apple's Tim Cook after Steve Jobs, who did an excellent job of evolution in the years after Job's death. I would then have exerted my personal views from 2nd season, and even then, it would be an evolution and not revolution, which is what he tried.

I think Moyes could have succeeded, had he decided to upskill his knowledge and skills and grow into the job, which senior leaders do all the time across industries. Instead he attempted to be 'the new big dick in town' which was unnecessary and demonstrated his narcissism and arrogance. As I wrote in my post above, Woodward was also not savvy enough at the time to realise, and by the time he did, serious damage had been done.

I agree with all of this.

 

[Skills]

Then you misunderstand the point.

The footballing side of the club was working perfectly well when SAF retired. And I think SAF's plan was that Moyes would allow the backroom to run the team for the first year or so, whilst he adjusted and got his hands around the club. I think that was implicit in decision to hire him, demonstrated by what SAF said in his final speech. He certainly did not expect Moyes to rip everything up and impose 'his will' from the first weeks.

In many ways, he was apple's Tim Cook after Steve Jobs, who did an excellent job of evolution in the years after Job's death. If it had been me, I wouldn't have changed anything for the first 100 days, just sat back and observed: the club had transfer plans in place, just allow that to play out, and let the team carry on as it had been left. He was given a contract that allowed him to only qualify for Champions League in his first season. I would then have exerted my personal views from 2nd season, and even then, it would be an evolution and not the revolution which he tried.

I think Moyes could have succeeded, had he decided to upskill his knowledge and skills and grow into the job, which senior leaders do all the time across industries. Instead he attempted to be 'the new big dick in town' which was unnecessary and demonstrated his narcissism and arrogance. As I wrote in my post above, Woodward was also not savvy enough at the time to realise, and by the time he did, serious damage had been done.

The footballing side wasn't perfectly though. Go back to the threads of the time, and they were constantly full of "zombie football". We were winning though, but it wasn't because of our football.

We were winning because of Ferguson's man management, personality and will-power he had installed into his group of players. That was only there, while Ferguson was there. As soon as he left, so did his personality, character and his leadership. Moyes trying to slot in for Ferguson would've been a huge pretender, and he wouldn't have got Ferguson's players respect nor his old coaching staff's respect. Trying to install his own style, coaches was probably the only sensible thing Moyes did.

Moyes was never going to succeed because he's simply not good enough. It's insulting to Alex Ferguson to say that anyone could've just slotted in and did his job, by following his blueprint like for like. Though if we were going to follow that model, the way to do it was to promote Meulensteen as first team coach and rather than hire a manager we should've been in the hunt for a Sporting Director.

 

[fps]

We were winning because of Ferguson's man management, personality and will-power he had installed into his group of players. That was only there, while Ferguson was there. As soon as he left, so did his personality, character and his leadership. Moyes trying to slot in for Ferguson would've been a huge pretender, and he wouldn't have got Ferguson's players respect nor his old coaching staff's respect. Trying to install his own style, coaches was probably the only sensible thing Moyes did.

Not at all, it was the worst thing he could do. The challenge was for Moyes to elevate himself to the level of Man Utd. Instead, he went after Everton players and installed Everton coaches - he tried to turn Man Utd into Everton. He needed what at least was working to continue working while he observed and learned, THEN make changes. The board clearly would have accepted a Top 4 finish that season, sacking him only after that became impossible, so despite the zombie football as long as Man Utd were ticking over at the top end of English football there wasn't going to be an issue for him that first season, by which time Man Utd would continue to offer CL football and the business as usual message would have been established, allowing for high level transfer targets.

 

[sammsky1]

Not at all, it was the worst thing he could do. The challenge was for Moyes to elevate himself to the level of Man Utd. Instead, he went after Everton players and installed Everton coaches - he tried to turn Man Utd into Everton. He needed what at least was working to continue working while he observed and learned, THEN make changes. The board clearly would have accepted a Top 4 finish that season, sacking him only after that became impossible, so despite the zombie football as long as Man Utd were ticking over at the top end of English football there wasn't going to be an issue for him that first season, by which time Man Utd would continue to offer CL football and the business as usual message would have been established, allowing for high level transfer targets.

@Skills - Happy to disagree with you.

But I'm of the view also shared above by @fps so wont type out again.

I agree he was not good enough at the time of hiring. But the same goes for every inexperienced leader in a bigger role. Those who succeed have the humility to learn more before they wave their dicks around. Maybe he wouldn't instantly become a trophy machine like Mourinho or Guardiola, but he should never have come 7th.

Moyes made the fatal mistake of thinking Manchester United had hired 'him' rather than 'who he hopefully became'. Even senior leaders with decades of experience learn new skills and get better. But he assumed his Everton ways were good enough and imposed that on us, most brutally evidenced by leading Manchester United to 7th, the same he had done for Everton the season before.

 

[Green_Red]

Considering it was 26 years before we won a league before he arrived it isnt unrealistic to expect at least half that after he left. The lack of investment in the squad worried me over the last 5 years he was here, specifically how we reinvested the Ronaldo money. But theres no point whinging. We are where we are. The main thing is having someone in charge with the vision to get us out of the hole we're in.

 

[Valar Morghulis]

Considering it was 26 years before we won a league before he arrived it isnt unrealistic to expect at least half that after he left. The lack of investment in the squad worried me over the last 5 years he was here, specifically how we reinvested the Ronaldo money. But theres no point whinging. We are where we are. The main thing is having someone in charge with the vision to get us out of the hole we're in.

Do you think he's at the club now? I personally don't think he is. And I'm not solely referring to the manager.

 

[Will Singh]

I think the thing that I never thought would happen is a callapse, SAF was literally holding the club on he's shoulders and as soon as he left its been a callapse. What hasn't helped is all the other clubs getting stronger but that's no excuse. I thought it will be hard but this is pathetic, we are being run by a bunch of clowns who ain't got a fecking clue. I could a few mates together and do a better job, it seriously is that bad and those yanks need to get the feck out!

 

[Hound Dog]

I remember that during the Ronaldo/Valencia/Owen summer, I caught myself thinking that a combination of Glazers in charge and no SAF would result in relegation for United one day. So, it has actually been better than I thought.

 

[Chip Butty]

Perhaps there is far too much focus on the following 5-6 years, rather than looking into what the 5-6 preceding years looked like, when those with influence and with the best interests of manchester united at heart, with the foresight of what was looming - should of been looking to build a continuity plan and protect legacies of those builders of the previous 20+ years and what those legacies needed to look like.


The red devil, is in the detail, and it pre-dates 2012.

 

[davidmichael]

I wonder in the long run, if losing Sir Alex or losing David Gill has had the most detrimental effect. Not to be-little Ferguson’s achievements, but just because of the sheer damage Woodward has done

I think David Gill knew just how bad things were about to get without Sir Alex around as Sir Alex was all powerful even with the Glazer family, I think Gill saw the writing on the wall and knew he’d be where Woodward is now without Sir Alex as their success was them being a double act.

 

[kouroux]

I expected it to be bad so not really surprised tbh. Under the great man, we didn't really prepare for a proper transition, it was just too brutal with that Moyes fool who was hell bent on changing the whole staff

 

[Reynoldo]

I think that if we'd gone for Jose right away before he became broken, instead of Moyes and combined with the that winning mentality that the squad had, would have suited him down to the ground and we would still be challenging for the top 2.

Always say this too, timing is everything. Mou would have been coming with his drive to succeed after Real and wanting to show Roman what he let go too. He would have had the ego to carry it on after Fergie and I think given us a title or two. Still think he would have been taken over by Pep anyway and had his meltdown after 3/4 years and left but most importantly it would have shown everyone (including ourselves) that we could win titles after SAF left which would have been his job done in my mind. Then we could have looked at moving forward with a more progressive coach and building a new culture at the club. That immediate period post Fergie was crucial and we messed it up and it’s just been spiraling downwards since.

 

[golden_blunder]

The squad Moyes had was still strong enough for top 2. Moyes was number 1 mistake for sure, his coaching led to senior players wanting out.

But a close second was letting David Gill leave at the same time and letting Woody take over the reigns. The transfer window that first season was an absolute joke and screamed incompetence

It was fighting a losing battle from when Woodward took over imho.

 

[Badunk]

I did expect us to take a long long time to get over SAF. What I didn't expect was the absolute dross football which has been pretty much the standard ever since he left.

 

[Chip Butty]

The squad Moyes had was still strong enough for top 2. Moyes was number 1 mistake for sure, his coaching led to senior players wanting out.

But a close second was letting David Gill leave at the same time and letting Woody take over the reigns. The transfer window that first season was an absolute joke and screamed incompetence

It was fighting a losing battle from when Woodward took over imho.

Last bit form me on this, but if anyone thinks, that, what was a 26 years stewardship, was then lost just in the transition period of 18 or so months, is sorely mistaken.


Its the 5-6 years previous that is, was and will ever be the issue.....Ask yourself this - How much effort and time did Gill and Ferguson put in to their succession planning?.... You do that and you'll be on the way to finding the answer to the million dollar golden question "where did it all go wrong?"

 

[Ballache]

I knew Moyes was the wrong appointment but figured we'd at least be in top 4 and build on that. After sacking Moyes and hiring LVG I thought that we'd be challenging again after a rebuild in like 3-4 years max. I now genuinely see no light at the end of the tunnel, have 0 faith in Woodward. The guy has made so many bad and incoherent decisions over the past few years. He's lucky he can attract sponsors, otherwise he'd have been gone a long time ago.
We'll see how things go but, bar a City like takeover, we won't be competing anytime soon and it will be at least 10-12 years between our last title win and the next one.

 

[Amerifan]

New owners, losing SAF, losing Gill, losing the remainder of the Class of 92, and hiring a manager whose first action was to gut SAF’s backroom staff. This slide towards mediocrity was inevitable. We lost everything that had made us great more or less at once. My hope then was as it is now, that it won’t be a 30 year title drought like Liverpool’s.

 

[Danny_]

Maybe, he picked Moyes because he wanted the club to fail after he left. He could have picked anyone but he picked Moyes? So, now everyone remembers his tenure as the golden era.

 

[Hammondo]

The problem is we never had a club philosophy or style to keep going. We didn't have the expertise throughout the club like top clubs do.

 

[060258]

The problem was it wasnt just Fergie that left that summer it was also Gill, Mike Phelan, first team coach Rene meulensteen and goalkeeping coach Steele and they were replaced by Woody, Chris Woods, Steve Round,Jimmy Lumsden,Phil Neville in his first full-time coaching role and Ryan Giggs as player-coach.

 

[060258]

I wonder in the long run, if losing Sir Alex or losing David Gill has had the most detrimental effect. Not to be-little Ferguson’s achievements, but just because of the sheer damage Woodward has done

This.

 

[Class of 63]

Pretty much a repeat of what happened after Matt Busby retired.

D'ya reckon? We fell off a Cliff after SMB retired, and we haven't been anywhere near the edge since SAF retired.

 

[Nevilles.Wear.Prada]

I knew we going to do a liverpool when i saw Cleverly, Evans led by moyes walked out the tunnel that first season.. Sad

 

[Jack - City Fan]

His genius papered over the cracks but we’d been declining since 2009. The 2011 title win was a slog, and the 2013 win was RvP and Carrick dragging us through. The remnants of the ‘08 team were still there and declining year on year, and we simply never replaced them. This became abundantly clear when SAF retired and mere mortals were forced to try and get a tune out of Tom Cleverley and Johnny Evans.

I feel this gets overlooked a lot. How many games in that 2013 season were won by a Carrick long ball over the top to RVP? We (your closest competitors) also totally imploded that season, our signings were Rodwell and Sinclair ffs. Combined with teams giving us a lot more respect, we never really learnt to break down teams that parked the bus and just fell away really quite early on.

But for so long after Moyes was employed all we heard was, "this was a title winning squad".

As it is however, I never thought your decline would last this long. You've been Unlucky having City and Liverpool be the best they've been in year, but the fact you haven't even managed to put together a coherent style yet is shocking. I really thought Mourinho would be able to grind you together a real title push, ala Chelsea and was surprised he was sacked for Ole.