SAF shielded us from the incompetency at the board level. And Woodward coming in when SAF was going out was the worst thing that happened to the club.
I'm sure the majority of us knew it would be tricky after SAF retired....
- Thread starter RetroStu
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In the latest episode of the United Hour Podcast, Nik @Rood and Imran @Annihilate Now! start with the good news by celebrating Manchester United Women's emphatic FA Cup win over Spurs at Wembley and the future of manager Marc Skinner.
Then it's the bad news and the ever worsening form of our Men with losses to Arsenal and Palace.
Finally the main debate - ETH Out now or keep him until the end of the season - if not longer. Are you Team Nik or Team Imran?
I think Liverpool fans thought exactly the same when they dominated in the 80's.
29 years later.....
Yup. But we had warning signs with the Glazers even before. Their and their minion's clutch only strengthenED after Gill and Fergie moved on. At first I thought Moyes was the issue. I started to shift my concern after LVG and the Disneyland comments. And then firmly confirmed after the way Jose was managed.
Fergie is to be blamed for appointing Moyes. I knew we were in trouble the moment it happened.
Didn't think it'd be this bad.
We've not come close to challenging for the title since SAF retired.
We've not come close to challenging for the title since SAF retired.
Literally everything that could go wrong went wrong.
Gave monster contracts to players who are clearly not performing well (De Gea gets his contract after an entire season of mediocrity)
I honestly don't know how this rot can be cleared. We need a really strong manager AND a CEO with vision AND owners who give a feck. It's going to take a stroke of luck for it all to come together. We've basically repeated the mistakes post Busby and 90s Liverpool. Except the league is way way stronger and harder to compete in. Just look at Arsenal.
- Gill left with SAF
- Appointed Woodward who is a donkey when it comes to football
- Appointed Moyes who is a donkey when it comes to football
- Moyes got rid of the staff and alienated everyone by asking them to be like Everyone
- Hired Van Gaal knowing he won't be there being 3 years but gave him full reign on implementing his philosophy without any plan for succession.
- Finally did something right by hiring Mourinho but didn't back him fully.
- Woodward failed to impress / hire Klopp.
- Ole's term literally went to shit once he was appointed full time.
Gave monster contracts to players who are clearly not performing well (De Gea gets his contract after an entire season of mediocrity)
I honestly don't know how this rot can be cleared. We need a really strong manager AND a CEO with vision AND owners who give a feck. It's going to take a stroke of luck for it all to come together. We've basically repeated the mistakes post Busby and 90s Liverpool. Except the league is way way stronger and harder to compete in. Just look at Arsenal.
Agree with the lot, especially the bolded.
I don't think Sir Alex is that narcissistic. Wasn't it widely reported that hae had dinner with Pep, we approached Klopp and he definitely had a conversation with Jose who was on the charm offensive
I'm trying to get my head around the fact that he was here 26 years but his time breached 4 decades.
Maths is not my strongest suit.
If you did't found it yet, 80s, 90s, 2000s and 2010s.I'm trying to get my head around the fact that he was here 26 years but his time breached 4 decades.
Maths is not my strongest suit.
I know! But 2013-1986 = 27 years. But his United time spanned 4 decades. Just trying to get my head around that.If you did't found it yet, 80s, 90s, 2000s and 2010s.
Ah yeah, it's an incredibly long time, I don't think people realize that consequences of that type of tenure when the man was the alpha and omega at the club, you virtually lose everything in a second when he leaves.I know! But 2013-1986 = 27 years. But his United time spanned 4 decades. Just trying to get my head around that.
Its been said very often already in other threads, but worth repeating, there was no proper succession planning, by the club for when SAF packed it in.
The same thing happened when Sir Matt retired, they even tried bringing him back for a while, but it didn't work. Although it would be stretching it a bit to assume there was anyone left at the club from those days who might have learned from that experience, you would have thought that a club now run by professional investors would have developed an effective 'succession plan'.
It wasn't just the replacement of a manager/coach, there were clear signs the football world was changing and even a direct replica of SAF would have found it difficult to succeed in the time frame everyone wanted. Even SAF himself flagged up one of the major problems that of dealing with agents, the effects of lucrative personal profile deals (advertising) and the other underlying reasons a modern player has for choosing a club.
The club's owners replaced David Gill with Ed Woodward and from a income generation point of view Ed was a good choice, but he is not a 'football man' and has shown at times as far as transfers are concerned, he just doesn't get it! Its very late in the day, but better late than never, we desperately need a Director of Football, to support Ole (or whoever he might be replaced by), to agree a footballing and not just business strategy for say 5 years and then have the authority to carry it through.
We have a mismatch of players stretching back over four (five if you include SAF) managers, the present manager seems to be saying he will concentrate on those players he brought in himself, a few stalwarts and the rest players coming through the youth teams etc. because these are the ones he can influence, the others will be cut loose over the next two to three seasons.
The same thing happened when Sir Matt retired, they even tried bringing him back for a while, but it didn't work. Although it would be stretching it a bit to assume there was anyone left at the club from those days who might have learned from that experience, you would have thought that a club now run by professional investors would have developed an effective 'succession plan'.
It wasn't just the replacement of a manager/coach, there were clear signs the football world was changing and even a direct replica of SAF would have found it difficult to succeed in the time frame everyone wanted. Even SAF himself flagged up one of the major problems that of dealing with agents, the effects of lucrative personal profile deals (advertising) and the other underlying reasons a modern player has for choosing a club.
The club's owners replaced David Gill with Ed Woodward and from a income generation point of view Ed was a good choice, but he is not a 'football man' and has shown at times as far as transfers are concerned, he just doesn't get it! Its very late in the day, but better late than never, we desperately need a Director of Football, to support Ole (or whoever he might be replaced by), to agree a footballing and not just business strategy for say 5 years and then have the authority to carry it through.
We have a mismatch of players stretching back over four (five if you include SAF) managers, the present manager seems to be saying he will concentrate on those players he brought in himself, a few stalwarts and the rest players coming through the youth teams etc. because these are the ones he can influence, the others will be cut loose over the next two to three seasons.
When Moyes won that first league game away at Swansea 1-4 I thought, on we go, just a continuation of the previous season. I think I realised it was really bad when we lost at home to Everton and Newcastle back to back. Never thought we would be as bad as we were that season.
I always thought that who ever came in after Fergie would find it difficult. I think several factors added to his retirement. David Gill stepping down, appointing Moyes, which I thought at the time could be OK, but then he went and got rid of all the coaching staff, which considering they had won league by 11 points, was a big mistake.
Then of course we were in a bit of a downward spiral, and the appointments of LVG and JM were right managers, but at the wrong time for United. One of the biggest factors for me was the season we lost the league to City on GD, which we never should have, had we won that I think Fergie would have retired then, but he was determined to win the league back and from then on he made short term signings just to regain league.
Then of course we were in a bit of a downward spiral, and the appointments of LVG and JM were right managers, but at the wrong time for United. One of the biggest factors for me was the season we lost the league to City on GD, which we never should have, had we won that I think Fergie would have retired then, but he was determined to win the league back and from then on he made short term signings just to regain league.
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working without a director of sport was possible when you have the same coach for ages like we had. Ferguson and Gill were working really good together. back then more or less anybody wanted to come to United.
but know, without a director of sport and no clue which players to buy we struggled. we have no vision at all. what football do we want to play? what players do we need? we always tried to buy the finish article and bought players like Sanchez when we already have enough LF. like a teenager playing a football manager game.
Don't like to say it, but I like what Klopp did at Liverpool. He had a plan and bought the players he needed for that. Not any big names. But he makes them big.
So no: I didn't think back then, that it will be that bad at United. But we were dreaming to long about Ferguson and we talked about him all the time. If something is gone, you have to appreciate it and never forget it but you have to move on. which we didn't.
but know, without a director of sport and no clue which players to buy we struggled. we have no vision at all. what football do we want to play? what players do we need? we always tried to buy the finish article and bought players like Sanchez when we already have enough LF. like a teenager playing a football manager game.
Don't like to say it, but I like what Klopp did at Liverpool. He had a plan and bought the players he needed for that. Not any big names. But he makes them big.
So no: I didn't think back then, that it will be that bad at United. But we were dreaming to long about Ferguson and we talked about him all the time. If something is gone, you have to appreciate it and never forget it but you have to move on. which we didn't.
Because Moyes banned chips in the canteen and the players downed tools.
At the very least...
It had to be expected but what caught me off guard was the massive improvements from our rivals (city and liverpool). Even at our peak we were never so dominant.
Well, I knew that Moyes would be a disaster. At first when I heard he was the new manager, I thought it was a joke. Only when I saw him at Carrington and on the back page of newspapers, did I believe it. A 2nd rate manager, taking over one of the best and biggest clubs in the World, did not take a genius to work out that it would be a recipe for disaster.
When LVG came in, I expected a recovery and even a title challenge in the 2nd year. He tried his based, but only managed 5th and an FA Cup.
When Jose came in, I expected us to back him 100% and that we would win everything. In his final Summer with us, when Woodward pulled the plug on funding the title charge, I knew we were screwed and that the season was a write-off. Had Woodward backed him in the Summer, I am sure we'd have gone from a distant 2nd place, to a title challenge.
When Ole arrived, he did well for 3 months, but after the PSG match, I noticed a complete drop off. We showed relegation form and going into the Summer, I knew that we'd replicate relegation form into the new season. I expect him to be fired in 2019 and in 2020 a new manager appointed. So, the reset button will be hit and we shall start again.
The common denominator in all this failure is Mr Edward Woodward. While he is in place, we will never win a league title.
When LVG came in, I expected a recovery and even a title challenge in the 2nd year. He tried his based, but only managed 5th and an FA Cup.
When Jose came in, I expected us to back him 100% and that we would win everything. In his final Summer with us, when Woodward pulled the plug on funding the title charge, I knew we were screwed and that the season was a write-off. Had Woodward backed him in the Summer, I am sure we'd have gone from a distant 2nd place, to a title challenge.
When Ole arrived, he did well for 3 months, but after the PSG match, I noticed a complete drop off. We showed relegation form and going into the Summer, I knew that we'd replicate relegation form into the new season. I expect him to be fired in 2019 and in 2020 a new manager appointed. So, the reset button will be hit and we shall start again.
The common denominator in all this failure is Mr Edward Woodward. While he is in place, we will never win a league title.
They aren't as good as you are making them out to be. None of them have won the treble, for example...or won the league 3 times in a row, as we did. Had SAF been here, I have absolutely no doubt, we'd be finishing top 3 in each of the last 6 seasons.
13-14 was shockingly bad. Not even Top6 after 24 years was abysmal. With that squad, Moyes should have finished at least 4th, behind City, Rat Face's Liverpool and Mou the II with Chelsea, clearly better teams that season. But the 13-14 squad was a 2013 Champions squad. No excuses, Moyes is the one to blame here, mediocre, stubborn and quietly unpleasant.
If anything, the Van Gaal 14-16 era has been the most damaging for this club. It started the trend of tumescent football + failed signings that should and could have been big with us. Van Gaal is a poor UCL manager (yes, I said it) but he's the kind of guy that wins leagues (constant no-nonsense hard-work with at least 14-16 important squad players). Finishing 4th and 5th under Van Gaal was a huge disappoinment, especially in 2016.
16-17, another disappointing PL campaign, but a nice EL title that had to be won (and it was won); 17-18 was the only good PL campaign of the post- SAF era, 2nd only to a freak Pep's City, but above Klopp and Poch. In retrospect, not backing Mou in the summer for a third (and final?) PL campaign was a mistake. We could have Willian, Maguire (cheaper) and Alderweireld with us, plus Bissaka in 2019, and a fit Lukaku. Don't know about Sánchez. Martial and Pogba would be gone, but, is that a bad thing? We could have sell both for at least 200 million. I think Mou's prestige never truly recovered from the 6th spot of 2017 and the "disaster vs Seville" in 2018. But looking at Ole's 2019, Mou should still be here.
If anything, the Van Gaal 14-16 era has been the most damaging for this club. It started the trend of tumescent football + failed signings that should and could have been big with us. Van Gaal is a poor UCL manager (yes, I said it) but he's the kind of guy that wins leagues (constant no-nonsense hard-work with at least 14-16 important squad players). Finishing 4th and 5th under Van Gaal was a huge disappoinment, especially in 2016.
16-17, another disappointing PL campaign, but a nice EL title that had to be won (and it was won); 17-18 was the only good PL campaign of the post- SAF era, 2nd only to a freak Pep's City, but above Klopp and Poch. In retrospect, not backing Mou in the summer for a third (and final?) PL campaign was a mistake. We could have Willian, Maguire (cheaper) and Alderweireld with us, plus Bissaka in 2019, and a fit Lukaku. Don't know about Sánchez. Martial and Pogba would be gone, but, is that a bad thing? We could have sell both for at least 200 million. I think Mou's prestige never truly recovered from the 6th spot of 2017 and the "disaster vs Seville" in 2018. But looking at Ole's 2019, Mou should still be here.
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That first summer was clearly the worst. I don't think any other manager in professional football could have done worse, unless specifically aiming for sabotage.
Just everything was wrong about it, bad choice of manager, Fergie and Gill leaving together, totally bungling the transfers and in desperation bringing in totally wrong players in Fellaini, and then Mata later on.
Just a real sinking feeling of a season.
I don't like this '**** of SAF' stuff because it ignores a few important facts about his time at United/his role in our current predicament but perhaps more importantly, it suggests one man was responsible for our previous successes and therefore we could find another 'one man' who could get us out of this mess - which I strongly disagree with.
All we had to do that summer was hire Mourinho, hire Luis campos and sign Thiago. We would still be at the top now.
We never had a plan in place that was the main issue.
The board and Gill knew that SAF was going to step down sooner than later, pretty sure most fans thought there was some kind of a plan in place to continue the club’s success after SAF was going to retire, turns out there wasn’t one.
By the time we tried for Pep and Jose they already gave their word to other club, that’s not a plan, that’s amateur bullshit.
We should’ve made sure we were Pep’s / Klopp’s / Mourinho’s first destination post Barca / Dortmund / Madrid, we didn’t.
Shit happens though, big companies make mistakes all the time, problem
is, we keep making mistakes time and time again.
We knew it would be tricky. But most would not have imagined how far we have fallen.
And the last one might be the biggest. (mistake)
Absolutely, after his Cardiff stint, Ole has no business managing at this level.
I think there is something fundamentally wrong with our club.
We have thrown mounds of proverbial shit against the wall since Sir Alex retired, we have spent little money, lots of money, played young players, brought experienced players, hired world class coaches. Nothing seems to stick and I look across the road at City and question whether you really have to hire the best coach on the planet to get a team functioning in a manner that can produce decent football.
I suppose what was never accounted for was that Sir Alex really was involved at every level of the club and as such we never developed an infrastructure that gave us the best chance at succeeding. In a way I feel like having the greatest manager of all time was like having a massive plaster papering over the cracks. We definitely have a huge number of people who are employed at the club who are not performing to the level needed in their roles.
With that said I still think the coaches we have had are hugely culpable. People talk about the pressure but I actually don't believe that is nearly as bad as it is made out, our fans are desperate to see a manager succeed and will offer incredible support at the smallest signs of success. I find the fact that we don't have a decent team who finish fourth regularly whilst playing reasonably attractive football a disgrace when considering the money spent. Arsenal managed this for years whilst operating at a profit. Maybe we should have hired Wenger.
We have thrown mounds of proverbial shit against the wall since Sir Alex retired, we have spent little money, lots of money, played young players, brought experienced players, hired world class coaches. Nothing seems to stick and I look across the road at City and question whether you really have to hire the best coach on the planet to get a team functioning in a manner that can produce decent football.
I suppose what was never accounted for was that Sir Alex really was involved at every level of the club and as such we never developed an infrastructure that gave us the best chance at succeeding. In a way I feel like having the greatest manager of all time was like having a massive plaster papering over the cracks. We definitely have a huge number of people who are employed at the club who are not performing to the level needed in their roles.
With that said I still think the coaches we have had are hugely culpable. People talk about the pressure but I actually don't believe that is nearly as bad as it is made out, our fans are desperate to see a manager succeed and will offer incredible support at the smallest signs of success. I find the fact that we don't have a decent team who finish fourth regularly whilst playing reasonably attractive football a disgrace when considering the money spent. Arsenal managed this for years whilst operating at a profit. Maybe we should have hired Wenger.
The inconvenient truth is that in his last couple of seasons, SAF had started to lose the magic. I know that he won the Title in his last season, but that was only because City hadn't fully got their act together and had the dressing room problems with Mancini. Bear in mind that the season before, City came to ours and humbled us 1-6. That would never had happened a few years before, no matter how good the opposition. SAF presided over a gradual decline, whatever the reasons, over his last three seasons that made the catastrophe that followed almost inevitable. In the end, we'll just buy our way out of this, (as Keane said earlier on Sky), although that probably means getting back into the top 4 and being equivalent to Spurs rather than winning anything of major significance, at least for the foreseeable future.
The truth of the matter is united were on the slip for the last few years of Ferguson's Reign.I actually think he saw it coming.yes they won the league but a lot was to do with RVP a striker that would probably have us in the top 4 right now.
I thought we would be competitive, I had no idea we would fall so far so fast. We look a million miles away from the top and, ironically, our wage bill is humungous. We're paying average players as if they were Figo, Zidane, Raul and Ronaldo. Its mind boggling.
The wilderness years have begun and they could go on for decades. That's the God's honest truth. We've become a joke.
The wilderness years have begun and they could go on for decades. That's the God's honest truth. We've become a joke.
Sorry - say that again, `we`ve become a joke`?
Maybe if you actually are influenced by the sports media and tabloid hysteria that feeds an overblown narrative that the current problem of re-building and winning games with an inadequately experienced/skilled squad currently suffering from injuries but with a number of talented players who actually do care about what it is to play for Manchester United, is somehow the end for our club. What rot.
Did you really expect our current squad to be at the top by the end of this season? Or next? I didn`t. Fully fit players can gell together but the team United has fielded for the last few weeks has been notably affected by losing key players. That is harming the re-building process but the constant harping, sniping, sound the alarm narrative being pushed everywhere is to a large extent driven by other realities.
Jamie Carragher`s article, Steve whathisname on tv behaving as if United have been in the title wilderness like Liverpool for years - except not saying anything about Liverpool of course. Ole was appointed to get rid of those who didn`t want to be at United and he did, he was appointed to start the back-to-the-future process of re-establishing a Manchester United identity, to develop youth and give talented lads their chance.
It`s still early days and our squad is thin - Ole will need and will get more players. I for one will not trash our manager, squad and players such as Marcus Rashford. There is an urgent need for improvement and it will have to come but all the screeching of alarms by the anti-United sources should`t be joined by United fans. Maybe some of you need to go read about United from the 70s up to and including when Sir Alex took over.
Different situations but neverthess dire in some cases. This is a very different club now and the personnel we need are within reach because of United`s resources. I would be in favour of a new manager of great experience and silverware to their name if Ole was made Football Director.
Yes. We have become a joke.
We are in our seventh year without a title and it would be a monumental shock if that changes.
We have one of the highest wage bills in world football and yet we are incapable of challenging. Our second place was 19 points off the top.
Teams come to Old Trafford expecting to win. There is no fear factor.
Yes. We are a joke.
I knew Moyes would be an utter disaster (which he was). Under LVG I was hoping for a few years stability until we got Jose, who I thought was going to take us back to the top.
I never expected this, especially the absolute state we are in now. The laughing stock of football, along with AC Milan.
I never expected this, especially the absolute state we are in now. The laughing stock of football, along with AC Milan.
I have never seen any MU fan saying they would have loved any manager of liverpool not even bill shankly and bob paisley except for Klopp. Guy is indeed very likeable. Now i dont think Klopp would not have joined you guys because i think he is very much into football fairytales of raising the phoenix again you were at top of your game then and liverpool was in ashes so maybe thats why he chose Liverpool.
We've made a lot of mistakes post Fergie.
1. Moyes over Guardiola or Mourinho.
1a. Moyes getting rid of Fergies staff.
2. Not getting Klopp and sticking with LVG.
3. Choosing very different managers to replace each other.
4. Fergie and Gill leaving at the same time.
5. No Director of Football
I think number 5, would have helped avoid some of the consequences of steps 1-4. We might still have chopped and changed a few managers, but they'd have likely been tasked with playing a certain way, built squads to suit that - we'd have probably gone through less churn.
1. Moyes over Guardiola or Mourinho.
1a. Moyes getting rid of Fergies staff.
2. Not getting Klopp and sticking with LVG.
3. Choosing very different managers to replace each other.
4. Fergie and Gill leaving at the same time.
5. No Director of Football
I think number 5, would have helped avoid some of the consequences of steps 1-4. We might still have chopped and changed a few managers, but they'd have likely been tasked with playing a certain way, built squads to suit that - we'd have probably gone through less churn.
I couldn't see United falling so far below Liverpool that if they shat on us from their perch they might miss.