In just six years United have completely forgotten what it means to be a big club

[fastwalker]

There is no point going over the stats about our start to the season. We all know that it has been woeful and frankly that is not what scares me. The thing that scares me is the fact that we seem to have forgotten what it means to be a big club. The culture, habits and commitment that were the hallmark of Sir Alex's United are simply not there anymore. Watching United now is literally like watching money burn. We have become the Liverpool side that we bantered so mercilessly during 25 years of glittering success under Sir Alex. We have become what they used to be and they have become what we used to be.

Results against City, Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea are utterly inconsequential if we cannot muster performances against Crystal Palace, Watford, Southampton, West Ham, Everton, Aston Villa, Bournemouth and Wolves. A big club gets good results against the big teams and better results against the smaller teams. That has been the consistency and foundation upon which a quarter of a century of United domination has been built.

Sir Alex did not build his dynasty on sentiment and mediocrity, but now we just don't tolerate mediocrity, we bend over backwards to make excuses for it. What needs to happen at United is plain and obvious. But will anything be done? Not a chance. We have Arsenal in a few weeks and we will probably win that game and forget that today's result against Watford ever happened. Why> Because we have completely forgotten what it means to be a big club.

 

[Massive Spanner]

What is even the point of this thread?

Seems like a very long winded way of saying "we used to not be shit and now we are shit". Well, feck, that's enlightening.

 

[esmufc07]

What is even the point of this thread?

Seems like a very long winded way of saying "we used to not be shit and now we are shit". Well, feck, that's enlightening.

What is the point in this post ?

 

[Massive Spanner]

What is the point in this post ?

Probably more of a point than making one about making David Moyes our interim.

 

[justboy68]

Honestly the earliest Liverpool teams I remember growing up were under Houllier and then a few years later they had Benitez. They weren't challenging often but were consistently 3rd/4th if I'm remembering ccorrectly and weren't throwing money down the drain to quite the extent we've been doing. I feel like we are in an even worse state than Liverpool were, which is a depressing thought.

 

[Crashoutcassius]

tiresome fans 6 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans 4 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans 2 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans today : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'

how long do you think it will be and how many times will people like the OP be wrong before the fans demand a plan rather than just emotional reactions from our club

 

[Skills]

There is no point going over the stats about our start to the season. We all know that it has been woeful and frankly that is not what scares me. The thing that scares me is the fact that we seem to have forgotten what it means to be a big club. The culture, habits and commitment that were the hallmark of Sir Alex's United are simply not there anymore. Watching United now is literally like watching money burn. We have become the Liverpool side that we bantered so mercilessly during 25 years of glittering success under Sir Alex. We have become what they used to be and they have become what we used to be.

Results against City, Tottenham, Liverpool and Chelsea are utterly inconsequential if we cannot muster performances against Crystal Palace, Watford, Southampton, West Ham, Everton, Aston Villa, Bournemouth and Wolves. A big club gets good results against the big teams and better results against the smaller teams. That has been the consistency and foundation upon which a quarter of a century of United domination has been built.

Sir Alex did not build his dynasty on sentiment and mediocrity, but now we just don't tolerate mediocrity, we bend over backwards to make excuses for it. What needs to happen at United is plain and obvious. But will anything be done? Not a chance. We have Arsenal in a few weeks and we will probably win that game and forget that today's result against Watford ever happened. Why> Because we have completely forgotten what it means to be a big club.

I think as a club in general we lack ambition and a drive for success. We had it with Sir Alex Ferguson, because he himself was an ambitious person and we were lucky that United were the club he chose to take along on his ride for success. So it's natural we lost it, as soon as he left.

Generally, the inherent ambition comes from the clubs fanbase. They hold the club accoutable for delivering, but we have quite an unambitious fanbase who excuse the failures and actually drive for the club to drop its standards.

 

[Rockets Redglare]

I actually thought we still felt like a big club when LVG and Mourinho were in charge, but under Ole is like going back to the darkest days of Moyes.

 

[esmufc07]

Probably more of a point than making one about making David Moyes our interim.

I thought it was a wonderful idea

 

[Anustart89]

tiresome fans 6 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans 4 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans 2 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans today : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'

how long do you think it will be and how many times will people like the OP be wrong before the fans demand a plan rather than just emotional reactions from our club

Well it's quite obvious that we should keep going until we get the right man in.

Ole's had his chance over a year now and shown that he can't teach the team to put the smaller sides to the sword. He can make the team play well against big sides, so clearly the players in place are good enough for that, but then suddenly they become shit when they face the poorer sides? Do you reckon that Liverpool should've stuck with Hodgson or Dalglish and that they would've been as successful if they'd settled for a man with a supposed plan, one that has brought us feck all in terms of progress over a year?

If he just keeps saying that he has a plan, is that enough to keep you guys wanting to give him more time, even if the evidence on the pitch shows quite clearly that he can only teach the team to play in a way that is effective against 25% of the teams in the league?

 

[Josep Dowling]

Probably more of a point than making one about making David Moyes our interim.

Got him there.

 

[Cassidy]

tiresome fans 6 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans 4 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans 2 years ago : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'
tiresome fans today : 'we need to get angry and sack manager, next manager guarantees success'

how long do you think it will be and how many times will people like the OP be wrong before the fans demand a plan rather than just emotional reactions from our club

Emotional reaction was hiring Ole fulltime

 

[b20times]

We are a massive club. The pride of all Europe. We have 659m fans. This club will always the biggest in the world regardless of Watford turning us over.

 

[Josep Dowling]

I actually thought we still felt like a big club when LVG and Mourinho were in charge, but under Ole is like going back to the darkest days of Moyes.

I have this feeling as well. I just think a club the size of United needs a manager with pedigree and presence. He doesn’t have that.

When Mourinho came in he went for some of the best players available on the market. I know it didn’t work out but surely we should at least try to attract the best talents around the world? It’s like we have given up on that. Now I see fans getting exciting being linked to Championship players. Daniel James is being held as a great signing. A winger who hasn’t scored for a considerable amount of games now.

Everything has changed. No one wants to win the league anymore. Everyone just talks about getting the top 4. What’s the point if you can’t win the Champions League? Being 8th and losing to the worse team in the league and there are still people defending the manager because they see progress.

 

[Gandalf Greyhame]

I agree with the OP and am absolutely furious.

How come a team who's 8th in the league cannot have the mentality of the top 2? Let's hire someone like Jose who has the winning mentality - that will fix things.

 

[El Zoido]

Emotional reaction was hiring Ole fulltime

Ha! Ed has no emotional stakes in this, it was cold and calculated and designed to curry favour with fans while signing on a yes-man manager who wasn't on a ludicrous salary. It was a corporate cost-cutting decision, not a shred of emotion in it from the people in charge. The emotion comes from the fans, who weren't the ones making the call.

 

[hobbers]

But-but-but the CULTURE.

What we really have is a culture of losing, and at board level a culture of rash, brainless decisions, and at fan level a culture of sentimentality and zero ambition.

 

[El Zoido]

I have this feeling as well. I just think a club the size of United needs a manager with pedigree and presence. He doesn’t have that.

When Mourinho came in he went for some of the best players available on the market. I know it didn’t work out but surely we should at least try to attract the best talents around the world? It’s like we have given up on that. Now I see fans getting exciting being linked to Championship players. Daniel James is being held as a great signing. A winger who hasn’t scored for a considerable amount of games now.

Everything has changed. No one wants to win the league anymore. Everyone just talks about getting the top 4. What’s the point if you can’t win the Champions League? Being 8th and losing to the worse team in the league and there are still people defending the manager because they see progress.

It has little to do with Ole. Fergie signed unknown players too.

Also, I hate to break this to you, but the best players don't want to come here anymore. We have to offer them £300k a week otherwise they're not interested, we can't offer them success so we have no leverage. And I think most fans agree that offering an insane salary just to sign a player who might not even be very good, is not the direction we should be heading in. Maybe you should pray for the Saudi's to save the club.

 

[Valuedrug]

What do you mean forgotten to be a big club? This is Manchester United. Biggest club in the world.

Youth. Courage. Success (eventually)

 

[Judge Red]

A decent run, then a setback against Everton and the confidence is back to zero. Mentality midgets. That’s our culture post-Fergie.

 

[Josep Dowling]

It has little to do with Ole. Fergie signed unknown players too.

Also, I hate to break this to you, but the best players don't want to come here anymore. We have to offer them £300k a week otherwise they're not interested, we can't offer them success so we have no leverage. And I think most fans agree that offering an insane salary just to sign a player who might not even be very good, is not the direction we should be heading in. Maybe you should pray for the Saudi's to save the club.

The best players in the world will always have ridiculous wage demands, that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t buy them. The issue we had previously is we blew our entire budget on one player and couldn’t do a few job on the squad. Every summer I’ve felt we always need 2 more players than we signed whilst trying to get out players like Young and Jones who have been here 4 years too long.

 

[sunama]

What is even the point of this thread?

Seems like a very long winded way of saying "we used to not be shit and now we are shit". Well, feck, that's enlightening.

There are some fans on here, who believe we aren't shit.
Those fans need to be shown that we have fallen so far, it begs belief.
If somebody had told me in 2012, that 7 years after SAF won the league by a big margin, we'd be managed by a League One manager and we'd be heralding 8th place as some kind of progression, I wouldn't believe you. But that's what has and is happening.
There are some fans who on this very board and claiming that we are making good progress and on the right path.

We've just been dominated by the worst team in the league (by far) and I think this is Ole's final vision of how we play.

 

[sunama]

A decent run, then a setback against Everton and the confidence is back to zero. Mentality midgets. That’s our culture post-Fergie.

I don't think it has much to do with confidence. If we play MCFC in 3 days, I think we'd beat them. The problem is playing against teams who sit back and force us to attack them.
The big teams attack us, allowing us to hit them on the counter attack.

 

[USREDEVIL]

The post-Ferguson era is getting off to a rough start eh?

 

[Rista]

This is actualy the first season after SAF where everyone seems to be down with the idea of us not being a big club anymore. LvG not qualifying for CL was seen as huge failure. Even Mourinho finishing 2nd was a failure, he was eaten alive for losing to Sevilla etc. But now the standards are so low that no one even dreams of top 4. Just any kind of progress is the most anyone expects or hopes for.

Not only we are incompetent from top to bottom but we are also sentimental fools. It's a dangerous combination.

 

[Focusmate]

This is actualy the first season after SAF where everyone seems to be down with the idea of us not being a big club anymore. LvG not qualifying for CL was seen as huge failure. Even Mourinho finishing 2nd was a failure, he was eaten alive for losing to Sevilla etc. But now the standards are so low that no one even dreams of top 4. Just any kind of progress is the most anyone expects or hopes for.

Not only we are incompetent from top to bottom but we are also sentimental fools. It's a dangerous combination.

100% spot on

 

[Hoof the ball]

This whole post-Fergie period reminds of the "Year of the Four Emperors" in Ancient Rome. Fecking superb boss in Augustus, followed by hapless oafs like Caligula, Galba, Otho, Vitellus and Vespasian. Well, Vespasian was good, so, I was hoping Ole would get our s**t back on track too.

 

[Denis79]

Don't agree with everything there but a good post with some good points. I believe our biggest problem is that the people in charge don't want to invest the money and effort to get us back to the absolute top.

 

[tenpoless]

The board:
Today : They have completely forgotten what United was all about.
Six years ago : They didn't know what United was all about.

If They knew (or not relying 95% on Sir Alex), We wouldn't be in such a mess in the first place.

 

[iammemphis]

It genuinely feels like its back to the drawing board with United. The period of time it took for success between the Busby years and Fergie are now in full throttle here. You either sit on one side of the fence; keep hiring manager after manager and hope one of them gets its right (hasn’t worked so far) or you start again from the beginning with a long term plan and see it through a few years at a time.

As bad as we are against the lower teams right now i have heard enough from ex united players who know Olé to think that we should give him time. Id rather this than what we had under Jose and LVG. I like the signings we have made under him and look forward to more deadwood being axed from the squad, including the likes of Martial and Mata who either don’t truely care or aren’t good enough anymore.

We need to make some more clever signings in key positions like midfield and upfront and keep giving experience to talented young players for us to build a foundation long term. Axing Olé now won’t help any of this and i would give him another season on top of this and reevaluate come October/November next year. I would rather give him the time he needs than just 12 months of a club that to begin with was full of toxicity.

 

[always_hoping]

Liverpool premier league finishes thus far (we all know they will finish 1st this season)

8th three times
7th three times
6th three times
5th two times
4th seven times
3rd five times
2nd four times

United under Ferguson in the Premier league

3rd three times
2nd five times
1st thirteen times

Since Ferguson retired

7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th and this season 5th or 6th at best?

 

[Cloud7]

It stems from our fanbase, and I’ve said this time and time again. The reason the club tolerates mediocrity is because we as a fanbase tolerate mediocrity. All around world football, even at home in English football, you see fans making their feelings known when things aren’t good enough. Our fanbase are content to simply keep on chugging on without demanding better, making excuse after excuse for mediocre managers and players.

 

[Cloud7]

This is actualy the first season after SAF where everyone seems to be down with the idea of us not being a big club anymore. LvG not qualifying for CL was seen as huge failure. Even Mourinho finishing 2nd was a failure, he was eaten alive for losing to Sevilla etc. But now the standards are so low that no one even dreams of top 4. Just any kind of progress is the most anyone expects or hopes for.

Not only we are incompetent from top to bottom but we are also sentimental fools. It's a dangerous combination.

Very very true. Even the past few years we acted like a big club, or at least had some of the expectations of a big club. This year it seems we morphed into Burnley.

 

[Paxi]

What is even the point of this thread?

Seems like a very long winded way of saying "we used to not be shit and now we are shit". Well, feck, that's enlightening.

What is the point of this forum? Seems like a bizzare thing to get worked up about..

 

[Valuedrug]

It genuinely feels like its back to the drawing board with United. The period of time it took for success between the Busby years and Fergie are now in full throttle here. You either sit on one side of the fence; keep hiring manager after manager and hope one of them gets its right (hasn’t worked so far) or you start again from the beginning with a long term plan and see it through a few years at a time.

As bad as we are against the lower teams right now i have heard enough from ex united players who know Olé to think that we should give him time. Id rather this than what we had under Jose and LVG. I like the signings we have made under him and look forward to more deadwood being axed from the squad, including the likes of Martial and Mata who either don’t truely care or aren’t good enough anymore.

We need to make some more clever signings in key positions like midfield and upfront and keep giving experience to talented young players for us to build a foundation long term. Axing Olé now won’t help any of this and i would give him another season on top of this and reevaluate come October/November next year. I would rather give him the time he needs than just 12 months of a club that to begin with was full of toxicity.

I don’t long for the days of Jose or LVG either, but saying it’s either Ole or back to troubles of the past is a false dilemma in my opinion.

If Ole and his people are up to the task of rebuilding this club, then any responsible board would try to find someone who is. Not that we appear to have one of those at United mind you.

 

[sunama]

This is actualy the first season after SAF where everyone seems to be down with the idea of us not being a big club anymore. LvG not qualifying for CL was seen as huge failure. Even Mourinho finishing 2nd was a failure, he was eaten alive for losing to Sevilla etc. But now the standards are so low that no one even dreams of top 4. Just any kind of progress is the most anyone expects or hopes for.

Not only we are incompetent from top to bottom but we are also sentimental fools. It's a dangerous combination.

I've been saying this for a while now.
I was beginning to think that perhaps I was the only one who had any kind of standard and that perhaps my expectations were unrealistic.
But when I read that some fans are quite happy to be mid table and believe that this is progress (even though we finished 2nd 2 years ago), logically this makes no sense.

When the next manager and players arrive, it is essential that they be told about out our expectations and that mid table is completely unacceptable. And that if mid table is where we end up, players, coaches and managers will be fired/sold. Only when those staff accept the standards expected of them, should they be allowed to sign contracts.

The most baffling situation is that we have a manager in charge who would not be hired by any team in the EPL or Championship, if he was available tomorrow.
8th place.
Just lost to the worst team in the league, who beat us while playing poorly. We were worse.
It is also galling to see fans accept what Woodward is saying, ie. that this is a long term project and that results won't be coming anytime soon.
Do these fans not understand that the further you drop, the more difficult it becomes to rise back to the top? The best way to the league title next season, is to win it this season. A winning mentality breeds winners.
40-50 years ago Leeds were the best team in Europe. LFC were also the best 30-40 years ago. Once they dropped their ranking, it has proved almost impossible to go back to the top. It has taken LFC about 30 years to regain the top spot.
Fans need to understand that there is no long term plan which will actually work. The plan should be to win the league next season and the season after that and the season after that. This is the only plan which will see us go back to the top.

 

[Alabaster Codify7]

I agree with the OP and am absolutely furious.

How come a team who's 8th in the league cannot have the mentality of the top 2? Let's hire someone like Jose who has the winning mentality - that will fix things.

It clearly didn't, did it, but neither will hiring a completely mediocre manager with no pedigree to speak of. We may as well have given Neil Warnock a chance - he was the one, wasn't he, who saved Cardiff's bacon when Ole had them en route to a second successive relegation. Then got them promoted again. Warnock is actually a more proven manager than Ole to be honest, and we would all be sick to the stomach with the thought of Neil bloody Warnock managing Man United. The Championship is a FAR tougher league than the Norwegian league.

 

[AshRK]

Jose showed us the mirror but we fans hated that. I never liked Jose's PC after the Sevilla game and thought he could have avoided that and just stayed calm but that was Jose for you but he was correct when he kept on pointing that more work needed to be done on this squad if we are to win but our fans were more interested in comparing with Pep/City when it was like comparing Apple and Oranges. Till we have this board running things we will not be any different. Sad reality.

 

[red thru&thru]

I've been saying this for a while now.
I was beginning to think that perhaps I was the only one who had any kind of standard and that perhaps my expectations were unrealistic.
But when I read that some fans are quite happy to be mid table and believe that this is progress (even though we finished 2nd 2 years ago), logically this makes no sense.

When the next manager and players arrive, it is essential that they be told about out our expectations and that mid table is completely unacceptable. And that if mid table is where we end up, players, coaches and managers will be fired/sold. Only when those staff accept the standards expected of them, should they be allowed to sign contracts.

The most baffling situation is that we have a manager in charge who would not be hired by any team in the EPL or Championship, if he was available tomorrow.
8th place.
Just lost to the worst team in the league, who beat us while playing poorly. We were worse.
It is also galling to see fans accept what Woodward is saying, ie. that this is a long term project and that results won't be coming anytime soon.
Do these fans not understand that the further you drop, the more difficult it becomes to rise back to the top? The best way to the league title next season, is to win it this season. A winning mentality breeds winners.
40-50 years ago Leeds were the best team in Europe. LFC were also the best 30-40 years ago. Once they dropped their ranking, it has proved almost impossible to go back to the top. It has taken LFC about 30 years to regain the top spot.
Fans need to understand that there is no long term plan which will actually work. The plan should be to win the league next season and the season after that and the season after that. This is the only plan which will see us go back to the top.

Hahahaha, I'm laughing at this post because it is absolutely correct and baffling how others don't see this. Newcastle are on level points with us. Sheffield United are above us. Chelsea have an ever revolving door of manager and players, and have just had a transfer ban uplifted, and are still above us. Leicester's current manager has been in charge less than ours, they sold their "best player" to us and we're still below them.

People believe we are in a bad state and we are. But this is only due to the people who are in charge of us from the owners, board and coaching staff. If these were to change, I am absolutely convinced we would start challenging again. The main thing is, we just have a toxic atmosphere around our club, which other keep calling out time and time again...bar our fans

 

[RUCK4444]

Liverpool premier league finishes thus far (we all know they will finish 1st this season)

8th three times
7th three times
6th three times
5th two times
4th seven times
3rd five times
2nd four times

United under Ferguson in the Premier league

3rd three times
2nd five times
1st thirteen times

Since Ferguson retired

7th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 2nd, 6th and this season 5th or 6th at best?

All this shows is a single manager who is given time brings consistency.

The post Fergie finishing positions are reflective of our strategy of hiring ,and heavily backing, then firing managers.
Each time the new manager wants a rebuild because of the absolute dross the previous manager brought in.

Ole is currently trying to polish the almighty turd that three so called experienced managers left for us.