Very true but then you have games like yesterday. To put in a performance like that after the last three games is inexcusable from the team and the coaches. I want Ole to be a success but it's very likely he won't. We can bury our heads in the sand but the fact is since he signed permanently the results and general play has been rotten. Very soon we will see this group of players go through the motions and see the manager sacked. If this is the case I hope the new guy in fecking destroys these players that think its acceptable to be embarrassed like yesterday.
In just six years United have completely forgotten what it means to be a big club
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Things often become the very thing they despise. My ex hated her mum but it did not stop her from becoming just like her.
We have rightly hated Liverpool since forever, we have enjoyed their failures and now we are paying the wages of sin. We have become what they were and they have assumed our position at the top of the tree.
It hurts but some folks must realize this could go on for another decade or more. Get used to it or find another hobby! Are repetitive constant moan threads pointing out he obvious gonna be the flavor of that decade???
We have rightly hated Liverpool since forever, we have enjoyed their failures and now we are paying the wages of sin. We have become what they were and they have assumed our position at the top of the tree.
It hurts but some folks must realize this could go on for another decade or more. Get used to it or find another hobby! Are repetitive constant moan threads pointing out he obvious gonna be the flavor of that decade???
Agreed. We really seem hung up on this idea of a long term plan, as if there was a magic formula that just works. With people believing the "it will get worse before it gets better" cliches when the actual truth is, the more we fall down the harder is it going to be to climb back up. A long term plan where we turn into a mid table side is a terrible plan whichever way you slice it.
A single good manager being the key component, not time. Would they have achieved it by simply keeping Hodgson or Dalglish? Probably not. Our problem has not been sacking managers but not hiring the correct one. They were all given more time than they would be at any other big club.
So who is the correct one? Last I checked Mourinho was one of the most successful managers on the planet.
It’s obtuse to say every manager is the wrong manager that doesn’t turn us into challengers within one transfer window, because that’s what people obviously wanted from Ole.
Exactly, these Ole enthusiasts are acting as though any Tom, Dick and Harry given time leads to sustained success. It's nothing short of madness. Obviously if City or Pool keep their current managers for a very long time they'll like have loads of success as they have the right men in charge.
Us on the other hand have a mediocre coach in charge and are thinking it'll to sustained success.
A washed up manager who couldn't take Chelsea anywhere near the pinnicle of European football im his second stint was never the right man for the job. There's a reason the best job he can get these days is Spurs.
Title challenge? Mate we're behind the like of Sheffield ffs. Arguably the most popular club in football is languishing 8th on the table after nearly half a round of fixtures and you think it makes sense.
United are just a cash cow and as long as revenue keeps increasing then nothing will change. But I can't see how that trend can continue if United continue to settle for mid table shit. Sooner or later team performance has to have an effect on revenue.
TELL ME ABOUT IT! We have completely lost our ways and identity and i don't whom to blame all this on. Everybody has blamed the other but nobody has really taken up the responsibility. Ole seems like a nice guy but all this only English talents and United way has literally given me a hard laugh because in all this he has lost his own identity. Every manager has his way of playing football and when i look at managers around the world, i can literally tell you how they like their teams to play but when i look at Ole, he looks clueless. He asks his players to press and attack but he always talks about pace upfront. He doesn't for once talk about the skill-set. The man thinks he can break open teams solely on the pace factor? I'm sorry but most teams will come defend deep and counter us. We look totally hopeless when we have the ball and the opponents don't want it. We go sideways backwards, in and out and again sideways and somebody shoots from the distance and crosses into an empty box. I've seen this for the major part of the last 6 years and frankly i think we cannot play good football. We need a manager that can drill some patterns of play and regardless of the opponents position, we have to make those passes and approach the box. Our boys have no long-sight and i could rather play in that team than many of those players. In fact, i think i have a few tricks up my sleeve than can easily be implemented with the team we have.
We are not just killing our identity as a big club but we're killing FOOTBALL!!!
Ole should not have been given the job; apart from his name he has no track record as a manager. The problem is deeper than that though. It goes up as far as the Glazers. We seem to have the ability to buy players who look ok on paper and make them worse. I can hardly think of a single player we have bought in recent years who has turned out better than expected. That says it all about our club at present.
Not while the Glazers are in charge. What's happening in to us has happened at every other sports franchise they own. We need to get them out.
Fans are to blame too- accepting utter mediocre rubbish from Ole. We deserve to not be a big club again (in terms of results) until we start acting like one & not accepting poor managers & poor players.
Until we all recognise that then other teams with more ambition deserve to be way way ahead of us
Until we all recognise that then other teams with more ambition deserve to be way way ahead of us
I think it makes perfect feckin sense, I’ll tell you what’s worse than me thinking that?
People in here who think we had a top four squad.
Three managers have spent a BILLION on a menagerie of shite players, most of which needed to be moved on, they had To.
People can stamp their feet all they want but we are where we are - reality check - it’s not our god given rite to have any success.
As far as I see it, and have stated before, league position was never a priority this season.
The stage of the rebuild we are in I was expecting Ole to try to implement his style of play whilst we work towards the summer window in much the same way Klopp did at Liverpool (I think he might be one of the decent managers right?? Well it took him time as well, years.)
This team cannot and does not provide consistency, same lack of consistency and ability from the same players that have been that way under multiple managers.
Fine, sack Ole, but what’s the plan?
It’s so easy to smash keys on your keyboard shouting Ole Out, that in itself does nothing without a robust change of plan behind it.
This is the sad and inconvenient truth, and people are usually scolded by top reds by saying it.
It actually took Klopp 1 year (his first full season) to get Liverpool back into the Champions League. One more year and they reached a CL final, losing out to Madrid, another year and they won it, while losing the Premier League to City despite getting 97 points.
So it took him 3 years, that’s what I thought
With clear progress in terms of results in the first season (going from 8th to 4th), unlike Ole now.
Yes but Ole has barely had a year and his full first season isn’t even near over with.
If we finish 8th then I’d agree but it’s not a fair comparison. But then fairness and reason aren’t something you find much of in the caf.
3yrs of clear, visible progress on the pitch and increasingly exciting, swashbuckling football. Yeah.
Not the dirge we have seen since Ole was made permanent and the pressure kicked in.
That's why it's hard to take folks like you seriously. Comparing Klopp to Ole is ridiculous on too many levels to mention.
What you don't seem to understand is that yes, it'll take time for us to get back to the top but that will only happen with the right man in charge. We're paddling in circles here and yet you think we'll somehow be heading in some direction steadily soon. It's ludicrous.
I'll tell you what's the plan. Sack Ole, hire a top manager with recent success i.e Allegri and watch our fortunes change. Maybe not this season a changing a club around mid season is difficult but after the next window we'd have a very good team.
Liverpool have been our favorite joke for eons now given the fact that they kept giving folks who weren't good enough for the job an eternity on the job, really didn't serve them well. Now they hired the right guy and they'll be on our perch soon enough if we keep faffing about being coached by interns.
Suggesting Allegri could make an instant impact is equally as ridiculous tbh. First of all he's never managed outside of Italy, so that in itself is a big question mark. Second, has he ever 'turned it around' at any club? Or is this simply based on winning the league a few times with a team built and trained by Conte. And finally, do we even have the right players for his style? This sounds like LVG all over again. Ole may or may not be the right person for the job long term, but unless we have a realistic replacement, it's dumb to sack him now.
It’s hard to take people like me seriously?This is exactly my point. People talk about getting rid of Ole like it will all then fall into place, people said this after sacking Moyes, then after sacking LVG, then after Mourinho.
Hiring Alegri, really? That’s the big plan. Wow where do I sign.
You say it would take Alegri one decent window to start turning things around, this wasn’t the case with our previous ‘experienced’ managers and ironically Ole is the only post-Fergie manager to have made any half-decent signings!
Perhaps if there was a plan or alternative that didn’t sound even worse than getting rid of Ole people like me would buy into it.
Do you know Einstein’s theory of insanity?
Our boom bust cycle.
Yes but as I say eventually the money will stop pouring in and they'll have to cash in. There's already one of the Glazers cashing in his chips probably because he can see the club is in decline and so it's just a matter of time until the others look to do the same.
The club has an accountability issue.
Only the manager gets the blame when practically everyone is messing up in varying degrees of shitness.
Only the manager gets the blame when practically everyone is messing up in varying degrees of shitness.
What's Ole's plan? The football has been gradually getting worse under him and he's clueless in making any in-game adjustments.
Just because you can't hire the right guy doesn't mean we shouldn't fire the wrong guy. Ole's woefully out of his depth and it's showing in every single game when he just can't motivate the players to play against the smaller clubs.
I hardly see people say "next manager guarantees success". They want a new manager because they didn't believe the old ones are good enough, it's that simple (and correct in case of Moyes, wrong in case of LVG, in my opinion).
1st season (both managers come mid season)
Klopp had Liverpool scoring the 2nd most goals behind Spurs since he was manager of Liverpool in that first season. 55 goals in 30 matches in fact. If you remove his first 3 months, he had Liverpool 1st in goals scored in his first season. Since the start of February (if you want to be favorable to Ole), he had Liverpool in 1st in goals scored.You could clearly see what he wanted from his side.
Ole had United with 4th most goals since he was caretaker manager and 15th most goals since the start of February. So clearly, Ole relied on a 1 month period.
2nd season (both managers have a summer transfer window and full preseason)
Liverpool scored 41 goals in 18 matches in the first season after Klopp had a full preseason with Liverpool. Ole currently has 26 goals in 18 matches after a full preseason.
So Klopp's results weren't there, but his ideas clearly translated onto the pitch as evident by the great attacking football on display. The stats show that. Ole's don't.
I said he might not imrpove us this season but we'd definitely improve by next season. Italian managers have no history of struggling outside of Italy. He didn't exactly inherit a title winning side at Ac Milan and that's exactly how they ended up.
We basically play Juve football without that level tactical acumen that only exists at clubs with serious coaches at the helm. LVG was extict in top level club football before e came here, nowhere near the same situation. Allegri recently reached 2 CL finals beating more talented sides along the way.
It's dumb to keep him. There is no progress. His ideas don't make sense. He's taking us nowhere. In a world of the Ten Hags and Allegri's keeping him is criminal.
We pride ourselves on giving time to managers which is a double whammy for us. Not only do we sacrifice short-term objectives in the search for a wishful long term success, but we also end up losing valuable time and a big-club like self-esteem where losing any match is painful. Due to clear incompetence of Woodward, we sometimes undermine the role that a manager can play particularly with success on the pitch.
Great managers have a tendency to make the people above them look better. It was the same owners at Liverpool, albeit without the sporting director, who were making one shambolic decision after another. When the assertiveness and decisiveness of Klopp was integrated into the same system, suddenly everything started to click. Same is the case with Antonio Conte at Chelsea. He came with a very specific plan which took a little while to get going but his vision was there to be seen and he won the title in his first season. Right after almost the same squad had finished 10th. Imagine the same scenario only with United. Our maximum expectations would be for a top 4 finish. Yes, Conte didn’t last much because that is the model of Chelsea. They are not a consistent club and prioritize short term objectives and are almost always reliant on the quality of the managers to win titles or get screwed, when it doesn’t work out.
The worst thing that Woodward and the Glazers are most culpable for is firstly the inability to identify the proper winning manager for us and then recognising when to get rid when it’s clear as day that things are not working out. As things stand, no one has any doubt that Ole is never going to win us a PL. We can blame every other thing in the system and make a million excuses for it but it’s the hard truth and both the management and the fans should accept that. Instead, we use Woodward or the squad as an excuse to defend Ole which isn’t incorrect but isn’t helpful for the aspirations of our club. Any other top class manager would’ve outlined their short term and long term objective with the club and ensured that our squad is not in the pathetic shape it is right now or they wouldn’t have taken the job.
We have clearly tried the patient model with the managers and seen months and months of either under-performance or supposed rebuilding. It’s time to get ruthless and place a perform or perish routine in the club. Enough is goddamn enough.
Great managers have a tendency to make the people above them look better. It was the same owners at Liverpool, albeit without the sporting director, who were making one shambolic decision after another. When the assertiveness and decisiveness of Klopp was integrated into the same system, suddenly everything started to click. Same is the case with Antonio Conte at Chelsea. He came with a very specific plan which took a little while to get going but his vision was there to be seen and he won the title in his first season. Right after almost the same squad had finished 10th. Imagine the same scenario only with United. Our maximum expectations would be for a top 4 finish. Yes, Conte didn’t last much because that is the model of Chelsea. They are not a consistent club and prioritize short term objectives and are almost always reliant on the quality of the managers to win titles or get screwed, when it doesn’t work out.
The worst thing that Woodward and the Glazers are most culpable for is firstly the inability to identify the proper winning manager for us and then recognising when to get rid when it’s clear as day that things are not working out. As things stand, no one has any doubt that Ole is never going to win us a PL. We can blame every other thing in the system and make a million excuses for it but it’s the hard truth and both the management and the fans should accept that. Instead, we use Woodward or the squad as an excuse to defend Ole which isn’t incorrect but isn’t helpful for the aspirations of our club. Any other top class manager would’ve outlined their short term and long term objective with the club and ensured that our squad is not in the pathetic shape it is right now or they wouldn’t have taken the job.
We have clearly tried the patient model with the managers and seen months and months of either under-performance or supposed rebuilding. It’s time to get ruthless and place a perform or perish routine in the club. Enough is goddamn enough.
Our boom bust cycle.
Here's the thing. In the last 10 years, the following managers won titles in their first seasons:
- Carlo Ancelotti (2010) - Previous year position 2nd
- Manuel Pellegrini (2014) - Previous year position 2nd
- Claudio Ranieri (2016) - Previous year position 14th
- Antonio Conte (2017) - Previous year position 10th
It's not that we want titles in the first seasons. But any inclination that we will challenge in the subsequent seasons needs to be there.
The massive difference being that Klopp inherited a fully functioning squad that Rodgers had put together and had challenging.
If anything Rodgers had them playing even more attacking football than Klopp.
The difference between the squads that Klopp and Ole inherited is night and day.
You can’t brush that fact under the carpet, I mean feck me Ole had to have a fire sale of donkeys before spending a penny. One of which was our most prolific goalscorer.
If you add some actual perspective the summer before each manager took over their respective clubs Liverpool were challenging for the league title playing outstanding football, imo the best I’ve seen Liverpool play.
Meanwhile United before Ole took over we’re languishing mid table with arguably the most disjointed squad in the the league, no moral, no form or consistency, then to top that off Ole needed to sell our top goal goalscorer in Lukaku.
The difference is huge and obvious when you apply some perspective instead of just looking at stats.
Again if we actually apply some perspective...
- Carlo Ancelotti (2010) - Previous year position 2nd
- > 2nd place means they were a functional side and challenging
- Manuel Pellegrini (2014) - Previous year position 2nd
- > 2nd place means they were a functional side and challenging
- Claudio Ranieri (2016) - Previous year position 14th
- > Result of the century, sacked the following season
- Antonio Conte (2017) - Previous year position 10th
- > Inheriting a Mourinho side after the three year cycle that had downed tools on the previous manager
I could get behind swapping the manager every summer if we had a side that was actually challenging.
Regarding positives is our record against the top clubs not positive and a sign of things to come? Signings have been much better, moral etc.
Listen Ole may not be the man for the job but people believing this myth that a new manager is going to fix the past six years of awful mismanagement in one transfer window is grating.
Is this about the need if firing Ole thread?
2 things are funny though. First the notion that just hiring another manager will suddenly change our fortunes for good.
The other is people just throwing manager names around. Managers who have nothing in common nor their styles of football. So instead of actually thinking about who to hire and why this time we should just go for the 1st free manager I guess.
2 things are funny though. First the notion that just hiring another manager will suddenly change our fortunes for good.
The other is people just throwing manager names around. Managers who have nothing in common nor their styles of football. So instead of actually thinking about who to hire and why this time we should just go for the 1st free manager I guess.
See. There's an explanation for every title winner as to why their win is an anomaly. We, as a fanbase, need to rise above the excuses and look to target instant success or progress. And that progress needs to be empirical and not notional. Shifting the goalposts every season and justifying why success is an option for other clubs but not ours is the reason why we're in this mess in the first place. Winning titles might be a factor of a lot of things. But continual decline needs to be arrested and it would require ruthless measures.
Also, as per your explanations, we're a "Mourinho side after the three year cycle that had downed tools on the previous manager" and we're worse off right now.
Just because the club keep appointing shit managers it doesn't mean we shouldn't keep sacking those shit managers. Eventually they might get lucky and accidentally appoint a good one.
I agree. We should be hiring and firing managers until one works out, the faster the turnaround the better. Only this way can the fans’ standards be met.
Player recruitment has fecked us big time, in other words, thanks Ed for polluting the squad. Now any manager that comes in has an uphill battle from day one.
So who are you all suggesting we get instead of ole? Piss easy to start throwing the toys out of your prams but whats your big ideas?
I'm assuming you're being sarcastic here. Please do answer the following questions:
Do you not think that all of our previous managers post-Fergie were sacked too late?
Do you think that Ole will win us the PL? If not, do you think it is worth giving Ole more time?
Do you not think that 30 points in 25 games is a sack-worthy performance for a manager for any top club?
Is there a single club who has risen from such a start to a manager tenure to win a PL for their club? (Please don't say Fergie. Talking about recent managers)
We consider clubs like Bayern to be well run and strategic in their decisions. But look at the churn rate of their managers. Title winning managers are let go without a second thought at the briefest slip of standards. Do you not consider them to be club with a winning mentality?
And finally, how according to you is Manchester United going to win the PL again?
Pochettino, Nagelsmann, Rose and about a truckload more who are definitely more qualified for the requirements. The point here is that we need to be ruthless towards managers who are not delivering. Like other top clubs are. 30 points in 25 games is not good enough for an Everton let alone Manchester United. Please look at the above questions and map out your plans to get us to the top again.
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