Increased leniency on fouls in the Premier League

[sugar_kane]

There was quite a bit of chat about this in the Klopp thread following his (and subsequently Ole's) comments but it's probably worth it's own thread as I expect it will be a point of discussion throughout the season and replace VAR as the topic of controversy.

While I'm broadly up for the the refs being a bit more lenient in order to let the game flow it's a bit weird that there's no official wording on the specifics of what it actually means, which leaves key decisions (like the foul on Bruno which lead to Southampton's goal) open to a lot of ambiguity, and a lack of referee accountability.

I was a bit surprised (though maybe I shouldn't have been given their track record on United) that neither Shearer nor Ian Wright thought the potential foul on Bruno merited any discussion on MOTD2.

The most detailed wording I could find on the change is from a 3 week old article on The Athletic, the quotes are from Mike Riley who is head of the referees board in England and seem to focus somewhat on penalty decisions. I couldn't find anything more official.

Referees will now be encouraged to follow a three-step approach in their decision making, which ensures contact alone is no longer enough to win a foul or penalty.

This includes the degree of contact by the defender, the consequence of the contact and the motivation of the attacker — a point designed to factor in whether the contact is exaggerated.

In short, it will push back on attackers trying to win fouls, as well as the notion that should a player feel contact, they should automatically go down.

“A clear message from the survey from all the players was that football is about contact, we don't want the trivial things being penalised,” said Riley.

“It’s not sufficient just to say yes, there's contact. I think we got into that frame of mind by the forensic analysis that went on because of VAR. Contact on its own is only part of what referees should look for. They should consider consequence and motivation as well. If you've got clear contact that has a consequence, then that will be penalised. If you have any doubt in those elements, you're less likely to see it given.”

This is further hoped to reduce instances where penalties are awarded for minimal contact, with 125 penalties awarded last season — a rise from 92 in 2019-20 — while also reassuring players that they will be given fouls even if they do not go down in the penalty area. “That should always be the case,” said Riley.

https://theathletic.com/news/premie...h-fouls-and-offsides-next-season/7fiebA7f2A0l

It seems to have been acknowledged by a few sections of the media that Southampton goal last season would have been a foul - so what specifically has changed and how will it be determined if referee's are getting it right or wrong under the new rules?

If we're applying the 'three step' approach in bold, I don't see how that's sufficient to change the decision being made in the Bruno example.

 

[Swedish_Plumber]

They’ll still give fouls for the defender when he has his back to goal in the corner and he feels a little nudge though. Hilarious that that’s given yet they’ll ignore shit like Bruno yesterday. This would make sense if there was even the slightest chance of consistency.

 

[Gio]

If we're applying the 'three step' approach in bold, I don't see how that's sufficient to change the decision being made in the Bruno example.

That's based on the assumption that it would have been a foul before this season. He'd have been lucky to get a foul there in any season in my view. Bruno does a really poor job of protecting the ball there - doesn't keep the ball away from the defender, doesn't use the outside of his right foot to protect it, doesn't lower his hips to get his arse in the way of the man, and isn't physically set to withstand a challenge.

Assessing what I saw at the Euros, it looked like the new guidance was targeted at those challenges where there is contact which prompts a player to go down to maximise his chances of winning a free-kick. So there was a reset on a lot of the softer stuff which conventionally was given out of habit more than anything else. But you're right, like every rule change or new emphasis, it will be inconsistently applied until it settles down.

 

[Bobski]

There were far too many soft penalties for minimal contact last season. It is a physical game, CONTACT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN FOUL, delighted that Riley is putting that out there, some of the match discussions when people are screaming robbery for innocuous contact not being given as a foul are highly frustrating. Not encouraging violent play but a fair physical contest for the ball is good for the game.

 

[Dave Smith]

Personally as long as things are handled evenly then I am all for this. Football is meant to be a contact sport.

 

[Pexbo]

Personally as long as things are handled evenly then I am all for this. Football is meant to be a contact sport.

They won’t be handled evenly. It’s more subjectivity brought into the rules and it’s going to piss people off. It’s already pissed me off.

 

[Eugenius]

I think the spirit of the new law is not giving fouls for minimal contact that's not enough to go down under / not really hindering the opponent (see McTominay and Son for example).

However think Bruno getting barged off the ball isn't what was in mind, even if he was looking for the foul/contact.

 

[mu4c_20le]

About time we take our game back

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I much prefer it this way. Bruno play acts too much so the new rules won't favour him.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

There were far too many soft penalties for minimal contact last season. It is a physical game, CONTACT DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MEAN FOUL, delighted that Riley is putting that out there, some of the match discussions when people are screaming robbery for innocuous contact not being given as a foul are highly frustrating. Not encouraging violent play but a fair physical contest for the ball is good for the game.

This seems to be a growing concern.

Has there been an official statement from the Premier League refs? It's only fair to know if the game in England is shifting towards rugby as some pundits are saying

 

[mu4c_20le]

I much prefer it this way. Bruno play acts too much so the new rules won't favour him.

I actually thought that was a foul, but not the reason we dropped points. What I enjoyed was the long spells without any interruptions from the referee because someone lost their balance challenging for the ball.

 

[Sandikan]

If it stops Vardy doing what he did to Rafael in the Van Gaal era, all for it.

But that one yesterday probably should have still been blown up.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I definitely favour fewer fouls being given when players feel a hint of contact and go down like a sack of shit. I do wonder if it will put PL clubs at a disadvantage in Europe. Seems like a bad idea to expect the players at the top clubs to have to adjust the way they play between mid-week and weekend games.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Well, i'm thinking OGS and the Manchester United recruitment team needs to find a good hitman. If clubs are going to target United players, they'll have to pay a price

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I actually thought that was a foul, but not the reason we dropped points. What I enjoyed was the long spells without any interruptions from the referee because someone lost their balance challenging for the ball.

I'm not saying it wasn't a foul but Bruno makes big dramas out of little challenges which is going to be even more counterproductive under the new rules.

 

[Bobski]

This seems to be a growing concern.

Has there been an official statement from the Premier League refs? It's only fair to know if the game in England is shifting towards rugby as some pundits are saying

I found the way the league started last year to be not far off ridiculous, minimal contact fouls, the handball nonsense, VAR, it was way too invasive, the laughable scenes of defenders trying to play with their hands behind their back, pens being given for things that you would be laughed off the pitch for claiming in your Amateur league.

Let the game flow, punish reckless play, professional fouling, but a softer touch from Var and some sense on pens makes it all more palatable.

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Sorry but the Perez challenge was very little different than the way Bruno got hit, yesterday.

Are we embracing a more aggressive style of game or is does it just apply to Manchester United players getting slammed?

 

[Classical Mechanic]

I definitely favour fewer fouls being given when players feel a hint of contact and go down like a sack of shit. I do wonder if it will put PL clubs at a disadvantage in Europe. Seems like a bad idea to expect the players at the top clubs to have to adjust the way they play between mid-week and weekend games.

The directive started at the Euros so hopefully we aren't the only league to adopt it.

 

[cyberman]

It’ll be forgotten about by the international break. Same shit every year.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Sorry but the Perez challenge was very little different than the way Bruno got hit, yesterday.

Are we embracing a more aggressive style of game or is does it just apply to Manchester United players getting slammed?

Come on now. It was very different.

 

[Pogue Mahone]

The directive started at the Euros so hopefully we aren't the only league to adopt it.

I didn’t know that. Interesting. So long as it’s consistently applied then I’m all for it. With VAR able to identify the really nasty ones if a ref misses it (e.g. Perez just now) then it makes a lot of sense to be a bit less fussy about physicality in general. I definitely think the game had got far too soft, with too much advantage given to teams/players that are good at play-acting.

 

[Hulksmash]

Finally our game is back


But make harder treatment for tactical fouls

 

[ooeat0meoo]

Come on now. It was very different.

I agree

I'm just still fuming over that yesterday.

 

[Physiocrat]

That's based on the assumption that it would have been a foul before this season. He'd have been lucky to get a foul there in any season in my view. Bruno does a really poor job of protecting the ball there - doesn't keep the ball away from the defender, doesn't use the outside of his right foot to protect it, doesn't lower his hips to get his arse in the way of the man, and isn't physically set to withstand a challenge.

Yup, never a foul

 

[Pogue Mahone]

I agree

I'm just still fuming over that yesterday.

me too!

 

[Pogue Mahone]

Finally our game is back


But make harder treatment for tactical fouls

Yes!

 

[Regulus Arcturus Black]

It’d be great if it wasn’t for the fact that 9 times out of 10 this season, refs will still blow for a foul in that Bruno situation, no doubt.

 

[Ish]

Maybe I’m the only one with this opinion as the commentators and pundits thought it was a stonewall penalty but Alli’s penalty given against Wolves seemed blatantly manufactured. And reading the “advisory” note in the OP, contact alone shouldn’t be enough to give a pen.

Am I completely wrong here re Alli and has anyone else seen it in slow mo? Admittedly I only saw the replay a couple of times so I could well be off. But it seemed very much like he played for it

 

[RedDevil@84]

I was a bit surprised (though maybe I shouldn't have been given their track record on United) that neither Shearer nor Ian Wright thought the potential foul on Bruno merited any discussion on MOTD2.

Because it was not on their agenda. Media purposefully picks discussion on certain things. Didn't some media guy confess about their bosses telling them which fouls/decisions to talk about on TV. Fouls against certain teams were supposed to be ignored.

 

[RedDevil@84]

Bruno does a really poor job of protecting the ball there - doesn't keep the ball away from the defender, doesn't use the outside of his right foot to protect it, doesn't lower his hips to get his arse in the way of the man, and isn't physically set to withstand a challenge.

The problem is consistency though. I am pretty sure there will be similar fouls where the ref would blow the whistle.

 

[sugar_kane]

Because it was not on their agenda. Media purposefully picks discussion on certain things. Didn't some media guy confess about their bosses telling them which fouls/decisions to talk about on TV. Fouls against certain teams were supposed to be ignored.

Probably is partially narrative driven but Shearer is full on ABU so doesn't surprise me either way.

He's had a column pubished today on the Athletic about the subject where he tenuously references Solskjaer getting sent off for the foul on Rob Lee even though it has literally zero relevance to the new refereeing approach:

And although this is only partially related, I remember a certain Manchester United striker hacking down Rob Lee, my Newcastle United team-mate, when he was one-on-one with the goalkeeper at Old Trafford many years ago, the very definition of a professional foul. Ole did what he had to do for the team.

Brendan Rodgers said after the Leicester game he thought the Bruno incident was a foul (although I've not really seen this get much traction in the media so far)

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I expect the theme this season will be the top six teams against the rule, and the bottom half teams being emboldened as they know they can be more physical.

Not saying I'm against that in principle, but there need to be clear parameters on what is allowed and what isn't - I still haven't seen that anywhere, the best you get is just conflicting opinions so how can we expect the directive to be applied consistently and fairly?

 

[Gary_Walsh_Nou_Camp_Hell]

It's not that refs are being told to be 'lenient on fouls' - they're just defining what a foul is differently.

The robust nature of the Premier League is one of the reasons it's entertaining and the most popular league in the world.

Bruno was not fouled, he was out muscled by a player with more commitment. Instead of rolling around he could have jumped up immediately and chased the Southampton player.

I don't think anyone is calling for a return to the 80s but even in the late 2000s the game with Rooney and Ronaldo was much more physical and still skillful and entertaining.

Of course the big teams want the little teams to have their one hope stiffled. But Klopp, Ole, Pep etc. Can feck off on this one.

 

[Solius]

It's not that refs are being told to be 'lenient on fouls' - they're just defining what a foul is differently.

The robust nature of the Premier League is one of the reasons it's entertaining and the most popular league in the world.

Bruno was not fouled, he was out muscled by a player with more commitment. Instead of rolling around he could have jumped up immediately and chased the Southampton player.

I don't think anyone is calling for a return to the 80s but even in the late 2000s the game with Rooney and Ronaldo was much more physical and still skillful and entertaining.

Of course the big teams want the little teams to have their one hope stiffled. But Klopp, Ole, Pep etc. Can feck off on this one.

Ah yes, after being shoved to the ground what a bastard for not getting up and catching the guy who had already passed the ball by that point.

You can't take out the man to get the ball. It was a foul and a very clear one.

 

[UncleBob]

It's not that refs are being told to be 'lenient on fouls' - they're just defining what a foul is differently.

The robust nature of the Premier League is one of the reasons it's entertaining and the most popular league in the world.

Bruno was not fouled, he was out muscled by a player with more commitment. Instead of rolling around he could have jumped up immediately and chased the Southampton player.

I don't think anyone is calling for a return to the 80s but even in the late 2000s the game with Rooney and Ronaldo was much more physical and still skillful and entertaining.

Of course the big teams want the little teams to have their one hope stiffled. But Klopp, Ole, Pep etc. Can feck off on this one.

Pictures below is how Stephens went in.

It should be fairly obvious to anyone watching both the pictures and the replay, that Stephen jumps in and takes out Bruno before getting the ball. It's not a shoulder vs shoulder where one player decides to dive, Stephens literally jumps into him with his foot mile high to further block him off. I have no idea why something like this should be considered as "the robust nature" of the premier league.

Stephens even lands his arm between Brunos shoulder/back and gives him the extra push

It's should've been a clear freekick.

 

[Stactix]

Stonewall foul, laughable to think it wasn't.

Also, that probably wouldn't of happened if the ref was consistent.
Stephens should of had a yellow earlier for giving the ref a mouthful for making the right decision in stopping the game due to Greenwood getting elbowed

After that foul not only was it not given to Bruno he was carded for less than what Stephens got away with for a genuine fecking reason and then they get the goal to boot.


Consistency is such a fecking joke.

 

[stevoc]

Personally as long as things are handled evenly then I am all for this. Football is meant to be a contact sport.

I'd make your peace with that not ever happening.

 

[Oranges038]

I didn't think the Bruno tackle was a foul, I thought he was just too weak. What annoyed me more was that they all stopped waiting for the freekick to be given and essentially gave Southampton a clear run at goal.

After that Pawson, gave a number of freekicks all over the pitch for instances where there was much less contact. I think he gave a couple against Pogba where he got very frustrated by the decisions against him.

I'm all for letting the game flow and not giving freekicks for every bit of contact. But there is always a call for a consistent approach which never happens. I think this approach will also go against the English teams in Europe, because if the players are used to this more free flowing style you are going to see players and teams getting punished in the CL games for fouls that aren't given in the league every week and losing games over it.

 

[Drainy]

Pictures below is how Stephens went in.

It should be fairly obvious to anyone watching both the pictures and the replay, that Stephen jumps in and takes out Bruno before getting the ball. It's not a shoulder vs shoulder where one player decides to dive, Stephens literally jumps into him with his foot mile high to further block him off. I have no idea why something like this should be considered as "the robust nature" of the premier league.

Stephens even lands his arm between Brunos shoulder/back and gives him the extra push

It's should've been a clear freekick.

Fouls were given for less in the same game

 

[Solius]

I didn't think the Bruno tackle was a foul, I thought he was just too weak. What annoyed me more was that they all stopped waiting for the freekick to be given and essentially gave Southampton a clear run at goal.

After that Pawson, gave a number of freekicks all over the pitch for instances where there was much less contact. I think he gave a couple against Pogba where he got very frustrated by the decisions against him.

I'm all for letting the game flow and not giving freekicks for every bit of contact. But there is always a call for a consistent approach which never happens. I think this approach will also go against the English teams in Europe, because if the players are used to this more free flowing style you are going to see players and teams getting punished in the CL games for fouls that aren't given in the league every week and losing games over it.

Go into 99% of the players in the game from behind with your leg at waist height whilst simultaneously pushing them in the back and they'll all go down. Because not many people can stay balanced when being massively shoved from behind.

Baffling, some of these views.

 

[Drainy]

I didn't think the Bruno tackle was a foul, I thought he was just too weak. What annoyed me more was that they all stopped waiting for the freekick to be given and essentially gave Southampton a clear run at goal.

After that Pawson, gave a number of freekicks all over the pitch for instances where there was much less contact. I think he gave a couple against Pogba where he got very frustrated by the decisions against him.

I'm all for letting the game flow and not giving freekicks for every bit of contact. But there is always a call for a consistent approach which never happens. I think this approach will also go against the English teams in Europe, because if the players are used to this more free flowing style you are going to see players and teams getting punished in the CL games for fouls that aren't given in the league every week and losing games over it.

Too weak.. Ffs

Yeah just hit the gym to avoid being clearly fouled by a guy running into you while you're static.