International Holocaust Remembrance Day

Jippy

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yeah the gas chambers are gone and much of the camp is destroyed but from the sense of the buildings inmates were housed in you get a good sense of what went on and it just shocked me how simple it was to create, it’s just huts to store people in line animals
They still have the gas chambers and ovens at Dachau. There aren't many huts left there either, but the scale of the place is so shocking.
 

Sandikan

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Holocaust denial, and any other matter of historical interpretation, should not be illegal, the state has no business trying to enforce a particular understanding of history.
3 years on, but wow, what a thing to post on a thread like this.
 

2cents

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3 years on, but wow, what a thing to post on a thread like this.
I’m surprised you apparently find it such a controversial position that it warrants a quote unaccompanied by any elaborated response after three years.
 

Sandikan

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I’m surprised you apparently find it such a controversial position that it warrants a quote unaccompanied by any elaborated response after three years.
I think it speaks for itself to be honest. Pretty disgusting, and on this thread of all places.
 

rcoobc

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Controlling thought is exactly what the Nazis did.

Let's not become them.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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3 years on, but wow, what a thing to post on a thread like this.
I actually agree. Not because the history of the holocaust as we know it is false, but because the possibility of contesting it and have different interpretation is the only reason we know it's true.
 

HTG

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It's illegal to deny the existence of the holocaust in Germany and I don't think anything bad has ever come from that law. I also don't think it has ever hindered research even the slightest bit.
 

Dr. Funkenstein

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It's illegal to deny the existence of the holocaust in Germany and I don't think anything bad has ever come from that law. I also don't think it has ever hindered research even the slightest bit.
That's besides the point, and not just because the German law allowed for people everywhere around the world to have a different interpretation of events or even deny it's existence.

The issue is that if government has a version of the truth and forbids all alternatives, there is no way of knowing what the truth is. You can only trust government to be truthfull, which in general is rather stupid, or assume it lies, which isn't good news for the truth.
 

Synco

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It's illegal to deny the existence of the holocaust in Germany and I don't think anything bad has ever come from that law. I also don't think it has ever hindered research even the slightest bit.
Yeah, what's known today comes from witnesses, historical research, journalism, and trials. Can't see how Holocaust denial has contributed anything to that.
 

Sweet Square

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I think it speaks for itself to be honest. Pretty disgusting, and on this thread of all places.
It's a perfectly fine opinion tbh. The state shouldn't censor people views no matter how awful those views may be. Also it should be my right as a citizen to decide what views I listen to. It seems rather insulting to the german people that it's government thinks it should decide for them what is and isn't acceptable.
 

HTG

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It's a perfectly fine opinion tbh. The state shouldn't censor people views no matter how awful those views may be. Also it should be my right as a citizen to decide what views I listen to. It seems rather insulting to the german people that it's government thinks it should decide for them what is and isn't acceptable.
The state censors your views all the time. You can't tell damaging lies about people or insult them without getting into legal difficulties. At least in most countries.
 

Chairman Woodie

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To describe Holocaust denial as a "matter of historical interpretation" is to put deniers undeservedly on a par with reputable historians.

I don't understand how even the basic principles of Holocaust denial, including: (i) playing down the number of Jews killed by the Nazis; (ii) denying the use of gas chambers to kill a large number of Jews at any time; (iii) denying the existence of a Nazi lead programme of extermination of European Jewry; (iv) and, claiming the Holocaust was a myth invented by Allied Propaganda and sustained by European Jewry for financial and political gain - can be viewed as a "particular understanding of history".

Denial literature contributes nothing to our knowledge of history. That said, I don't think denying the Holocaust (or any genocide) should be a criminal offence.
 

2cents

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To describe Holocaust denial as a "matter of historical interpretation" is to put deniers undeservedly on a par with reputable historians.

I don't understand how even the basic principles of Holocaust denial, including: (i) playing down the number of Jews killed by the Nazis; (ii) denying the use of gas chambers to kill a large number of Jews at any time; (iii) denying the existence of a Nazi lead programme of extermination of European Jewry; (iv) and, claiming the Holocaust was a myth invented by Allied Propaganda and sustained by European Jewry for financial and political gain - can be viewed as a "particular understanding of history".
To describe Holocaust denial as an interpretation or understanding of history is not to confer an equal or any degree of legitimacy to it. Some interpretations of history are more valid than others, some are just wrong. And while some may be shaped primarily by a genuine engagement in historical enquiry, others may be shaped primarily by a commitment to a particular ideological outlook, which in the case of the vast majority of deniers would be fascism/antisemitism.

Now there will be some who know the truth of the Holocaust but engage in denial disingenuously, for basically cynical purposes. But for the true believers, I think their denial should be viewed as a genuine belief/interpretation/understanding/whatever, however wrong they may be. To downplay this genuine ideological commitment is maybe to miss one of the more important aspects of Holocaust denial.
 

Synco

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It's a perfectly fine opinion tbh. The state shouldn't censor people views no matter how awful those views may be. Also it should be my right as a citizen to decide what views I listen to. It seems rather insulting to the german people that it's government thinks it should decide for them what is and isn't acceptable.
Few remarks on that - I find takes like this too simplistic. Not because there aren't any problems with censorship, but because of how unproblematic the free spread of hate speech and Nazi propaganda (which is what Holocaust denial effectively is) is treated to be. This strikes me as very naive, and all the more so in the specific context of Holocaust denial in Germany.

Comes across as a variation of liberal free speech ideology tbh, including the characteristic problems and fallacies. Calling hate speech 'views' or 'opinions' really is depoliticizing language, and unlike the popular saying, it does matter how 'awful' or 'reprehensible' public utterings are. Discourses have real-life consequences - don't think I need to expand on this here.

As for "the German people shouldn't be patronized by the state" - it's not that simple either. There's too much post-NS history to go through for both German states, but I'd say the far-reaching delegation of power to a technocracy - characteristic for both representative democracy and state socialism - actually played a civilizing role in the process. Especially early on.

Sure, 2021 isn't 1955 anymore, but that's the historical context of these taboos. (Even though Holocaust denial in particular was only criminalized a good deal later.) And with the murderous surge of neo-Nazism of the past three decades, this issue isn't just a thing of the past. I don't have any numbers, but I don't think you'd find a lot of support for legalizing Holocaust denial in Germany today, outside of the typical (far) right clientele.