Is Garnacho about to be "Cavanied"? | No

[Chesterlestreet]

The fact that we cant even agree here whether its racist or not (even if unintentional) just goes to show how unclear this is.

It is not unclear at all that the emoji in question has been used, on numerous occasions (see above), to insult individuals, including some very high profile individuals - and it's also clear that the nature of those insults have been blatantly racist. So, yes, we should be able to agree that the gorilla emoji can clearly be used as a racist insult.

Just pointing that out, because it seems that some people are not aware of it: "It's clearly just a symbol of strength, ffs." No, it clearly is not just that.

 

[Martial'sEmergingSmile]

It’s more racist you white people thinking that is racist.

Wouldn't go as far as saying it's approaching racist but it does feel like a well intentioned misread. Happy to hear other opinions though.

I get it of course. Garnacho was misguided in not seeing this coming - despite clearly having no ill intent - but for people to see a gorilla emojii used very publicly, very deliberately to praise a teammate and instead of thinking 'yeah he thinks he's strong' they instantly go to 'oh yeah he's black' feels a little disheartening.

People bringing up the fact that monkey imagery is still used to dehumanise us or Vini Jr having half a stadium furiously abusing him with monkey chants just feels like a red herring. Like, it's very easy to differentiate situations like these - which have obviously hateful intent - from a young white dude going out of his way to publicly praise a black teammate. Intent has to matter, common sense has to matter.

On a general basis I think we should try to be better at ascribing good intentions to people until proved otherwise...it's something I've struggled with...but especially in a case like this, where it's just so patently obvious he was going out of his way to gas up a teammate, it just feels silly at best and maybe even a bit damaging at worst (creating division/mistrust/othering where there was none...the opposite infact)

 

[Kellyiom]

I understand why he used a gorilla, it signifies strength and power. I just think regardless of what the meaning was or is, it's just a simple case of knowing how using that particular emoji would be perceived and taken out of context in this instance.

You're dead right, and me rushing to make a judgement is how these things get escalated unnecessarily. Sadly, real racism is often much more snide and difficult to counter. Just glad he didn't reference me because he'd have posted a photo of a sloth..

 

[gaffs]

Stop making up stuff. Garnacho didn't "describe" anyone with a gorilla emoji. And the pic had Maguire and other players as well. You don't get to pick and choose who an emoji applies to. He deleted it, because some people will start attributing the gorilla emoji to the black person in the pic.

It is exactly what Garnacho did. He was saying Onana was strong, like a gorilla.

Anyone with half a brain realizes there are connotations, regardless of what he meant.

There is many an emoji, or word, that you can use to characterize strength.

 

[KikiDaKats]

The white people in outrage are the ones that truly need to reconcile with their internalised racism. The black guys are just being idiotic bigots. One can’t live one’s life searching for racism.

If people want to engage WWF they should not be hiding behind black people. The primate cause is not a black people cause.

The conclusion of racism in such a post, tells us more about the interpreter than the post.

 

[MancunianAngels]

Let's clear a few things up.

Could that be considered racist? Yes, in many circumstances.

Did Garnacho mean it to be racist? No.

Should players be careful what they post on social media in the heat of the moment given that, even if they delete it, every post will be seen by millions of people in a few minutes. Yes.

Should Garnacho be banned. No.

 

[duffer]

The white people in outrage are the ones that truly need to reconcile with their internalised racism. The black guys are just being idiotic bigots. One can’t live one’s life searching for racism.

If people want to engage WWF they should not be hiding behind black people. The primate cause is not a black people cause.

The conclusion of racism in such a post, tells us more about the interpreter than the post.

Could you quote some of these people please?

 

[Sandikan]

Garnacho has just proven he's an uneducated imbecile. How stupid are some people to not realise that would be deemed as insensitive. Beggars belief really.

It's unbelievable that anyone would be naive enough.

You can picture him being told the connotations by some club official and him being all "ohh, yeah...whoops".

After his nonsense scuffing up the pen spot as well, he's got some growing up to do.

He is only a kid though, just a kid that has to grow up in massive public scrutiny

 

[Sandikan]

Let's clear a few things up.

Could that be considered racist? Yes, in many circumstances.

Did Garnacho mean it to be racist? No.

Should players be careful what they post on social media in the heat of the moment given that, even if they delete it, every post will be seen by millions of people in a few minutes. Yes.

Should Garnacho be banned. No.

It's a United player, it'll receive plenty of attention, he'll inevitably get spanked. We had it with Cavani only a few seasons ago. And his was more of a language mis-understanding than this one.

 

[gaffs]

The white people in outrage are the ones that truly need to reconcile with their internalised racism. The black guys are just being idiotic bigots. One can’t live one’s life searching for racism.

If people want to engage WWF they should not be hiding behind black people. The primate cause is not a black people cause.

The conclusion of racism in such a post, tells us more about the interpreter than the post.

Not at all.

It shows that the viewer of the post understands that calling someone, or referring to someone being like any kind of primate has caused huge amounts of pain, suffering, belittlement, violence and discrimination to black people. It has had history altering and culturally destroying effects upon people of the Africa diaspora.

 

[KikiDaKats]

Could you quote some of these people please?

Why?

 

[duffer]

Why?

Because I must've missed them in the thread and am interested to see what you consider ""white people in outrage".

 

[KikiDaKats]

Not at all.

It shows that the viewer of the post understands that calling someone, or referring to someone being like any kind of primate has caused huge amounts of pain, suffering, belittlement, violence and discrimination to black people. It has had history altering and culturally destroying effects upon people of the Africa diaspora.

If you think bigging up a mate friend should elicit blurry interpretations, that’s for you to do.
I insist it’s more to do with the viewer than the post.

 

[gaffs]

If you think bigging up a mate friend should elicit blurry interpretations, that’s for you to do.
I insist it’s more to do with the viewer than the post.

Just ignoring thousands of years of history.

Next time a black colleague does something great at work, maybe you should use that same emoji to congratulate him. Be sure to include all your colleagues too!

Or maybe you can send them a box of bananas to say thank you?

 

[GaryLifo]

My view is that he didn't mean to offend but I can also see why others would see it as offensive. I think he needs to take a 1 game ban and say that he understands it was a mistake to use that emoji and accepts it isn't the right way to express what he was intending to say.

 

[Widow]

Racism has no place in the world.

This is not racism.

The world can't claim everything black and hold people to account every time they are used! We should look at the context and determine the intention.

 

[philipos]

Why not just ask Onana whether he was actually offended and if he says he wasn’t, that’s the end of the matter.

 

[Widow]

Just ignoring thousands of years of history.

Next time a black colleague does something great at work, maybe you should use that same emoji to congratulate him. Be sure to include all your colleagues too!

I'm black and I'm able to understand the difference between what was posted and racism.

 

[KikiDaKats]

Because I must've missed them in the thread and am interested to see what you consider ""white people in outrage".

I didn’t but I’ve seen a few news outlets and the framing of it by journalists.

 

[fallengt]

Next time a black colleague does something great at work, maybe you should use that same emoji to congratulate him. Be sure to include all your colleagues too!

Bad analogy since it's the kind of inside joke that colleges or friends would totally do.
Not something you throw at strangers nor post it on social media for thousand people to see though

 

[Norman Brownbutter]

Because I must've missed them in the thread and am interested to see what you consider ""white people in outrage".

Sounds like someone wants to start a poll?

White, outraged.
Black, outraged.
White, not outraged.
Black, so fecking over all these annoying cnuts being offended on my behalf.

Cant say Im not curious what the results would be. And would it even matter? Onana has already said hes not offended and took it in the spirit it was intended, yet so many still seem to think it's ok to be outraged for him. Kinda weird, IMO.

 

[duffer]

I didn’t but I’ve seen a few news outlets and the framing of it by journalists.

I dread to think which news outlets you are looking at. None of the big ones have remotely framed this as an "outrage".

 

[Widow]

Sounds like someone wants to start a poll?

White, outraged.
Black, outraged.
White, not outraged.
Black, so fecking over all these annoying cnuts being offended on my behalf.

Put me down for option 4, please!

It's a very woke world we live in when it suits

 

[Taribo's Gap]

Wouldn't go as far as saying it's approaching racist but it does feel like a well intentioned misread. Happy to hear other opinions though.

I get it of course. Garnacho was misguided in not seeing this coming - despite clearly having no ill intent - but for people to see a gorilla emojii used very publicly, very deliberately to praise a teammate and instead of thinking 'yeah he thinks he's strong' they instantly go to 'oh yeah he's black' feels a little disheartening.

People bringing up the fact that monkey imagery is still used to dehumanise us or Vini Jr having half a stadium furiously abusing him with monkey chants just feels like a red herring. Like, it's very easy to differentiate situations like these - which have obviously hateful intent - from a young white dude going out of his way to publicly praise a black teammate. Intent has to matter, common sense has to matter.

On a general basis I think we should try to be better at ascribing good intentions to people until proved otherwise...it's something I've struggled with...but especially in a case like this, where it's just so patently obvious he was going out of his way to gas up a teammate, it just feels silly at best and maybe even a bit damaging at worst (creating division/mistrust/othering where there was none...the opposite infact)

I don't know that too many people think Garnacho is being racist here, though there will always be some. Let me give you an imperfect thought experiment and what I think could be a stronger framing of the FA's intent or policy here, with which people can still have their quibbles or question its efficacy.

Thought Expirement:

Suppose Yossi Benayoun or Omri Casspi scored a last-second game winner, in either of their respective sports. After the game, in their exuberance their teammates posted money bags or currency-related emojis in a celebratory fashion, intended to signify "money in the bank" or "that shot was money" or "you can take that to the bank". Now, such emojis can have many meanings but one such use is to connote success and excellence and, with the context here, it should be fairly clear that this was celebratory praising of a teammate and no ill-intent was meant. Should Money Yossi be a thing?

FA Policy:

We are committed to denouncing racism in all forms or fashions and, as such, have a no tolerance policy toward racism. Certain symbols, invocations, tropes, imagery and associations are prima facie insensitive and will be considered verboten because of the long and negative history surrounding them and especially when there are a myriad of alternative ways to express the same sentiments. Our policy is intended not only to govern interactions between two players but also to act as a message and deterrent against the proliferation of historically insensitive tropes and symbology, regardless of intent, and, as such, we have a strict liability standard in these instances in order to demonstrate the seriousness with which we take our "No Room For Racism" campaign.

 

[KikiDaKats]

Just ignoring thousands of years of history.

Next time a black colleague does something great at work, maybe you should use that same emoji to congratulate him. Be sure to include all your colleagues too!

Or maybe you can send them a box of bananas to say thank you?

Good Lord.

I have already had black people ask me what my real name is. Now tell me what my reaction should have been.

Like I said it says more about the viewer.

 

[duffer]

Sounds like someone wants to start a poll?

White, outraged.
Black, outraged.
White, not outraged.
Black, so fecking over all these annoying cnuts being offended on my behalf.

Cant say Im not curious what the results would be. And would it even matter? Onana has already said hes not offended and took it in the spirit it was intended, yet so many still seem to think it's ok to be outraged for him. Kinda weird, IMO.

I've not seen a single post out of the 500+ in this thread which is showing "outrage" at Garnacho's post.

There's obviously going to be some trolls on Twitter and Reddit but they don't count.

 

[kouroux]

Threads like these is why I don't post on the Caf anymore. The place has become insufferable

 

[Anustart89]

Threads like these is why I don't post on the Caf anymore. The place has become insufferable

Says the man in a post on the Caf. Joking

 

[Glorio]

Not really. You need to consider that Garnacho is not native to the UK. The imagery of a gorilla is hardly commonplace in relation to racism and he's clearly not been exposed to it. To an outsider, its a completely benign symbol.

We all understand it, but if you've grown up in Spain or Argentina, you may associate a gorilla with something else entirely, like strength or power.

Racism exists all over the world but it isn't necessarily conveyed in the same way. And, given the context of the post, his innocence is clear. There was no racism intended and anyone feigning offence needs to grow up.

Oh come on! I get that Garnacho meant no disrespect, however, do the people making primate noises and throwing bananas have no clue of the connotations??
Let's not conflate ignorance with something being Ok.

Also, to the bolded line, just like on one hand people can't tell Onana what to be offended by, you definitely can't tell people what not to be offended by either, you don't know their experiences.

 

[KikiDaKats]

I dread to think which news outlets you are looking at. None of the big ones have remotely framed this as an "outrage".

I think I get the point you making. Likely “outrage” is the wrong use of word from me.

 

[Glorio]

Good Lord.

I have already had black people ask me what my real name is. Now tell me what my reaction should have been.

Like I said it says more about the viewer.

No, it doesn't.
Most agree on this thread that Garnacho was giving an innocent compliment to his team mate, but let's not pretend that in general terms, using primates in reference to black people doesn't have racist connotations

 

[KikiDaKats]

No, it doesn't.
Most agree on this thread that Garnacho was giving an innocent compliment to his team mate, but let's not pretend that in general terms, using primates in reference to black people doesn't have racist connotations

“Ok

 

[gaffs]

Bad analogy since it's the kind of inside joke that colleges or friends would totally do.
Not something you throw at strangers nor post it on social media for thousand people to see though

Its a perfectly good analogy. You have that "inside joke" on an email with your black colleague and include the rest of the department, you will expect people will have something to say.

 

[IRELANDUNITED]

Assuming he is going to receive a ban is it known when that ban will take place? Is there a chance he could be suspended for the derby on Sunday?

 

[gaffs]

Most people on here saying Garnacho wasn't being racist, but you can still say racist things to/about a friend, without intending to hurt or offend.

I may be wrong, but i think he has used that emoji because he is likening Onana to a gorilla. Big, stocky, strong, intimidating and black.

I have spent months and Argentina and Brazil. I was seconded to Buenos Aires. People there do say racist things in passing, even those who you wouldn't expect it from. It is just a different culture. We have seen time and again South American players putting themselves in these positions.

 

[Widow]

Most people on here saying Garnacho wasn't being racist, but you can still say racist things to/about a friend, without intending to hurt or offend.

I may be wrong, but i think he has used that emoji because he is likening Onana to a gorilla. Big, stocky, strong, intimidating and black.

I have spent months and Argentina and Brazil. I was seconded to Buenos Aires. People there do say racist things in passing, even those who you wouldn't expect it from. It is just a different culture. We have seen time and again South American players putting themselves in these positions.

He was born in Madrid though, not South America.

 

[Beachryan]

Bottom line is that he will get a ban because it's am easy win for the FA, and in the end that's all that matters. A bunch of rich white men in suits can toast each other at lunch over having doing a grand ole job of keeping the woke masses off their backs another month.

Garnacho f'cked up, we're united, he'll do the time. Move on.

 

[Vanrouge]

No what is a joke is that you can't seem to have differing views and not extreme ones without being accused of being a daily mail reader by some posters. Is that the level of debate you want?

You're replying to what was literally my first post in this thread. I haven't even offered an opinion! I was simply pointing out that although you seemed to be disagreeing with another poster, you also seemed to be agreeing with them (that the standard of comments here are atrocious, and therefore Daily Mail level). Again, I haven't even offered an opinion on that or on the Garnacho tweet because who on god's green earth cares what I think?

 

[VanKenny]

And i always saw Gorillas like these mighty, wise, intelligent, super strong and agile animals. Maybe its because the movie Tarzan where i first learnt about Gorillas when i was a kid, but i always saw them as these really cool animals, protective of each other, weren't predators or bullies and only used their strength when necessary, etc.

Its too bad for black people that white folks have decided that only them can be compared to Gorillas and their positive attributes, because every time somebody uses it to compare it to a black person, it would only be because of the skin color, obviously.


It baffles me the lenghts that some people will go to in order to find something to complain about. This situation is a great example of whats wrong with the world today, you have one kid innocently praising two teammates, one black and one white, for their strenght, power and might, using the emoji of a Gorilla to do so, and many completely decide to disregard and ignore the true meaning of the comparison and the positive connotations that you could draw from that, and instead choose to look for the possible negative connotations it could have if it was ever used with bad intent, even aknowledging that this isnt the case.
And of course, Garnacho is an stupid idiot for not realizing that some people with a severe lack of common sense would find his tweet "offensive", as in hes responsible for whatever crap and toxicity other people have inside their own minds.

Hope Onana puts a gorilla emoji next to his name in twitter or instagram and let young black people know that they themselves can be compared to mighty animals even if it happens to be a black animal, because turns out, not everything is about skin color like many people in this thread seem to believe.

 

[ForeverRed1]

Onana doesn’t believe it’s racist. Onana isn’t offended, so I’m not going to be either.